Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ormly]

Deleted by author

 

[A Brother In Christ]

my bad

 

[A Brother In Christ]

...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

my bad

 

[A Brother In Christ]

my bad

 

[A Brother In Christ]

present tense salvation .... choice... obey or disobey... Gal 5:25

Intial Salavation... Jn 1:13, Jn 6:65
future salvation .... jn 3:18

 

[Ormly]

Before the cross, mercy is asked for from God through the faith of the righteous, Justisfication was given as His reply. On this side of the cross, it is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that is given by God in reply that both justifies and saves, peace with God having been made by the Blood..
__________________

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.​

Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.

"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."

Quote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..​

He gives mercy to ALL.

There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".

"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2

No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...


"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32

That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."

 

[MamaZ]

Quoted by MamaZ:
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.
​

Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.

"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."

QUote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..He gives mercy to ALL.

There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".

"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2

No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...


"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32

That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."​

He did die for the sins of every man. But not every man will believe and be saved.​

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
He did die for the sins of every man. But not every man will believe and be saved.​

Exactly. But why won't they?

Is it because of something GOD decided? Or do men make conscious decisions about eternity, themselves?

In Rom2:6-8, eternity (or wrath) is the consequence of what we do. Isn't it?

The facet of OSAS called "Calvinism" (predestined-election), asserts that man cannot believe (at least, not savingly) without God first regenerating his heart. Any idea that "unregenerated men can believe", is considered "Pelagian", or "Semi-Pelagian", or "works/merit salvation".

But where in Scripture does "regeneration", precede "saving-faith"? Where is it God's decision, rather than man's?

And if God's decision, then what's the point of the Final Judgment --- judging men for what they do? (Also in Rom2:6-8)

Thanx, MamaZ (and anyone else wishing to reply) for helping me understand.

 

[yashualover]

Quoted by MamaZ:
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.
​

Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.

"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."

QUote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..He gives mercy to ALL.

There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".

"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2

No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...


"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32

That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."​

Jesus said "I came to give my life for the sheep"

There are those who are not His sheep and He did not come for them.

God hates the sin but loves the sinner (where is that in the bible?), so does the sinner's sin get cast into hell or the sinner. God is angry with the sinner every day!

Joh 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


YHWH's Sovereign general grace is upon those who are not His sheep (ie sends rain upon the just and the unjust) There lives are hanging by a thread over the fires of hell. The only thing that keeps them from immediatly falling into hell is God's hand of restraint, there is a time for everything.


1Jn 2:2 It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

To say that the word world means every human from Adam to the end is foolinshness.

In the contex the world of believers defines the word world. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of every human all humans would enjoy the new heavens and earth for eternity, we know this can not be true since the word tells us many will be thrown into hell.

Just because YHWH takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked does not mean they will not be cast into hell to be tormented for all eternity.
​

 

[yashualover]

Quoted by MamaZ:
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.
​

Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.

"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."

QUote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..He gives mercy to ALL.

There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".

"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2

No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...


"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32

That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."​

This is a tipical example of how the false doctrine of free will distortes the truth and says that man has the power within him, but the word tell me that you must be born again and that the natural man does not recieve the things of God.

Regeneration preceeds faith.​

 

[yashualover]

QUoted by MamaZ:
you preach a different gospel. for you believe that it is your faith that saves you and your faith that justifies you but yet cannot answer What Part God did for your faith or justification..
​

Hi, "MamaZ".

May I?
Peter says "receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls."
Jesus said, "By your endurance gain your souls."
Paul said "Persevere in your teachings; as you DO you will save yourselves..."

1Pet1:9, Lk21:19, 1Tim4:16

Will you consider that "justification CAME to all men", in exactly the same measure ("so then / even so") as condemnation came to all men? (Rom5:18)

Will you also consider that "justifcation must be received"?
"...much more those who receive the abundance of grace and (who receive) the gift of righteousness shall reign in life thorugh the One, Jesus (shall be justified)." Rom5:17

Regeneration preceeds faith.

Can a dead man revive himself?

If Justification came to all men then all men would be saved, Daaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
Jesus said "I came to give my life for the sheep"
There are those who are not His sheep and He did not come for them.​

And I perceive Jn10:9 to say "all who enter, become His sheep".

But please show me anywhere in Scripture where Jesus did not come for any man.

Quote:
God hates the sin but loves the sinner (where is that in the bible?), so does the sinner's sin get cast into hell or the sinner. God is angry with the sinner every day!​

Right.

Quote:
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. ​

WHY does God's wrath rest on him? In 1Jn5:10, men perish BECAUSE they have not believed. In Rom2:6-8, God's wrath is BECAUSE they sought selfish things rather than God and immortality.

Quote:
YHWH's Sovereign general grace is upon those who are not His sheep (ie sends rain upon the just and the unjust) There lives are hanging by a thread over the fires of hell. The only thing that keeps them from immediatly falling into hell is God's hand of restraint, there is a time for everything.​

Please show me anywhere in Scripture, where anyone is not sincerely invited to salvation. The best place is probably Matt22:2-14; who was not truly invited? "Many called".

Who was not chosen? Three --- one who CHOSE business, one who CHOSE farming, and one who CHOSE filthy clothes. Where did the KING decide?

Quote:
1Jn 2:2 It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

To say that the word world means every human from Adam to the end is foolinshness.​

Is it? Then who does the word "OURS", reflect? Do you see three groups there?

1. Ours-saved.
2. Whole-world-FEW-ELECT.
3. Rest of the world UNELECT.

I don't see the second group, "Yashualover". "Holos Kosmos" conveys the entire world.

Quote:
In the contex the world of believers defines the word world. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of every human all humans would enjoy the new heavens and earth for eternity, we know this can not be true since the word tells us many will be thrown into hell.​

That's true --- IF salvation is sovereignly accomplished. What if men choose?

Quote:
Just because YHWH takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked does not mean they will not be cast into hell to be tormented for all eternity​

Nawww, you missed the point.

"So REPENT and LIVE!"

Repenting is a CHOICE that He GIVES. In no way can this statement co-exist with "God grants repentance to only a FEW that He PREDESTINES".

"God is the Savior of ALL MEN, malista/chiefly/above-all believers."

"All" is the provision, "belief" is the fulfillment.

...and it's not something God decides...

 

[Ormly]

He did die for the sins of every man. But not every man will believe and be saved.

Now you are thinking. . . . . with the operative words being, "man will" as in "man wills it/himself" to believe.

 

[Ormly]

Regeneration preceeds faith.

Can a dead man revive himself?

If Justification came to all men then all men would be saved, Daaaaaaaaaaaaa

Non-sense. How is it then a righteous man be called righteous by God before regeneration was made possible?

. . . .And Justification didn't come to all men, redemption did.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Quoted by Yashualover:
Jesus said "I came to give my life for the sheep"
There are those who are not His sheep and He did not come for them.
​

And I perceive Jn10:9 to say "all who enter, become His sheep".

But please show me anywhere in Scripture where Jesus did not come for any man.

Romans.... 9:8-24... how many times ben have we talked about this.. jn 1:13

Who allows the sheep to come into the fold.... The good shepeard ...

John 6:65 states no one comes to Jesus with the Father allowing it!

Quote:
God hates the sin but loves the sinner (where is that in the bible?), so does the sinner's sin get cast into hell or the sinner. God is angry with the sinner every day!
​

Right.

Quote:
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
​

WHY does God's wrath rest on him? In 1Jn5:10, men perish BECAUSE they have not believed. In Rom2:6-8, God's wrath is BECAUSE they sought selfish things rather than God and immortality.

Quote:
YHWH's Sovereign general grace is upon those who are not His sheep (ie sends rain upon the just and the unjust) There lives are hanging by a thread over the fires of hell. The only thing that keeps them from immediatly falling into hell is God's hand of restraint, there is a time for everything.
​

Please show me anywhere in Scripture, where anyone is not sincerely invited to salvation. The best place is probably Matt22:2-14; who was not truly invited? "Many called".

Who was not chosen? Three --- one who CHOSE business, one who CHOSE farming, and one who CHOSE filthy clothes. Where did the KING decide?

Eph 1:4, jn 1:13, john 6:65 ect ect

Quote:
1Jn 2:2 It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

To say that the word world means every human from Adam to the end is foolinshness.
​

Is it? Then who does the word "OURS", reflect? Do you see three groups there?

1. Ours-saved.
2. Whole-world-FEW-ELECT.
3. Rest of the world UNELECT.

I don't see the second group, "Yashualover". "Holos Kosmos" conveys the entire world.

Quote:
In the contex the world of believers defines the word world. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of every human all humans would enjoy the new heavens and earth for eternity, we know this can not be true since the word tells us many will be thrown into hell.
​

That's true --- IF salvation is sovereignly accomplished. What if men choose?

Quote:
Just because YHWH takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked does not mean they will not be cast into hell to be tormented for all eternity
​

Nawww, you missed the point.

"So REPENT and LIVE!"

Repenting is a CHOICE that He GIVES. In no way can this statement co-exist with "God grants repentance to only a FEW that He PREDESTINES".

"God is the Savior of ALL MEN, malista/chiefly/above-all believers."

"All" is the provision, "belief" is the fulfillment.

...and it's not something God decides...

going around and around again

 

[MamaZ]

Now you are thinking. . . . . with the operative words being, "man will" as in "man wills it/himself" to believe.

NO man can believe lest God opens the eyes of those to understand who Jesus truly is or what it is that Jesus truly has done. Even Peter who had walked with Him for quite some time didn't not know on HIS own who Christ is.. Even after they had been with Him they still did not understand the death of Christ. They went back to being fishermen after His death. So now if it is mans will they surely would have been the men that willed themselves. Don't you think?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Ben -

I see this discussion on John 3 as not going anywhere if we keep repeating the same things as we have been saying. So far, all we have determined is that it could actually be interpretted either way, and neither of us can be dogmatic on our interpretation.​

Hi, "JF". I do tend towards "dogmatic". Lending credibility towards "non-sovereign-gifted-understanding", I'll propose verses 9-10:

Jn3:9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? ​

If sovereign divine instilled perception is required before one can understand, then how is it that Jesus is incredulous that "Nick" does NOT understand?

The only way that, "How can you, a teacher, NOT understand?" --- makes sense, is if that understanding was EXPECTED. Making it "non-gifted by God".

Quote:
So I am going to take some time before I repost (say, a day, or maybe longer), and get as much information as I can and then try to provide some more information for you as to why I believe I am correct. ​

Oh dear; hope I didn't jump the gun. Then again, I would relish hearing your comments on verses 9-10. The fact that Jesus expected Nick TO understand, seems to conflict with "sovereign-gifted-understanding" (to the few-elect) to me...

Quote:
As far as the decree is concerned, I am not interested in discussing it right now. Let's just stick to one topic and stay focused on John 3. Once this is settled or we exhaust the topic, then we can discuss the decree.​

Which "decree"?

Quote:
Are we in agreement?​

Agreement on discussing "see/perceive/behold"? That's great.

Quote:
By the way, I don't care what everyone else says about you...​

I would be curious what others have been saying about me.
I always strive very hard to discuss with love, respect, and honor.

Quote:
you have shown me respect, and therefore, I will continually discuss opinions with you and keep an open mind about what you say.​

It's much more than SHOWING you respect. I DO respect you. I'm well aware that Calvinists read and study Scripture, and find support for their positions. The fun for me, is in seeing through YOUR eyes, and I pray it is equally enjoyable for others to see through MY eyes. What if one of us connects Scripture in a way that makes sense, that the other has not considered before? That's the goal. Sharpening each other, maturing each other in Christ, and above all displaying the reality of Christ in our hearts to the world, through the love and fellowship we have between us.

Quote:
It seems to me that some people get upset at you simply because you have an argument that they can't refute, and so they make it personal. The only reason why one would do this is to be selfish and take pride in their own belief, not to truly pursue the truth of the Scriptures.​

I'm always painfully conscious of "invested emotion". A person here with much time invested in one position, might be well, embarassed at discovering verses that conflict that position. I've certainly been accused (often) of "stubbornly refusing correction because of emotional commitment to a refuted position". One or two have flat said, "Ben, you never admit you're wrong". That's when I invite a discussion of those "refutations". If I can be SHOWN wrong on certain Scriptures, with clear theological foundation, that would be grand.

I came up with "The Five Ways" to show how just making a statment (which I call "throwing-a-Five-Way") and calling something "refuted", doesn't fly. Three examples (for illustration, not for argument):

In James5:19-20, "Throwing-a-Five-Way" is to state "those who fell away were never REALLY saved, but were LURKING amongst the saved; thus James said 'those who are led back to where they never really WERE, will be saved, for the FIRST time'." This is not refutation; it does not explain what James said. "BACK" conveys "were-there-before".

In 1Cor2:14, the "THINGS" are the same "things" as in verse 12; because those "THINGS" are revealed by the received Spirit, Paul cannot be including "saving-belief-in-Jesus". One must believe in Jesus and then receive the Spirit, so that THEN the "spiritual things" in 12 and 14 are revealed. This is refutation.

In 2Cor4:3-4 it's thought that "the god of this world has blinded (veiled) them so they cannot believe in Jesus". But verse 3:16 says "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord, the veil over his eyes is removed." Flat placing "turn-to-Lord", before "remove-veil". This is also refutation.
​

A "refutation" is either established and not contradictable, or it's not a "refutation".

Quote:
So don't expect me to make anything personal, I just want a friendly, intellectual and scholarly discussion.​

An excellent and honorable attitude. However, if you DO "make it personal" towards me, I will expect the kindness and consideration you have shown.

...and if I do "make it personal towards you", then expect the same kindness and consideration I have shown.

Another name for "respect", is "love". It is our essence.

Ben - after doing much etymological study, I have at least come upon this, that the greek root being "eidon" has not as you claim, one primary meaning "to physically behold", but two primary meaning depending upon usage. To simply state that "physically behold" is the primary meaning, therefore entitling you to the better translation simply because it is stated as the first definition in your lexicon is not a reason to accept it as the better interpretation. We have also so far only based our discussion on root words and not on phrasing or specific usage used, which obviously will give much insight as to what the actual intention of John was when he wrote this.

Now I have read a few different texts, and actually a few different renditions of the word are used. Using the "received text", I have found that the greek word used for "see" is "idein". Now bring this over to your lexicon and check out the meanings -

1. to see
to perceive with the eyes
to perceive by any of the senses
to perceive, notice, discern, discover
to see
i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
to pay attention, observe
to see about something
i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
to inspect, examine
to look at, behold
to experience any state or condition
to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit

2. to know
to know of anything
to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
of any fact
the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
to know how, to be skilled in
to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1 Thessalonians 5:12)

This is what I'm talking about when I say there are two primary meanings. It is translated "to know" 281 times and "to see" 314 times in the KJV. That's a pretty close number.

Now, you must admit that within the definition of "to see", there also lies more of a meaning than just "physically behold". You may want to turn your attention to "any of the senses" or the phrase "the mind, the attention to anything". Even the translating of "see" has an idea of comprehension.

I still put forth the idea the "to know" is the better translation, and I have very good reason to do this.

Out of the textus receptus-

Iesous apokrinomai kai epo autos amen amen lego soi ean me tis gennao anothen dunamai ou eido basileia theos.

Now, mind you, this is all of transliteration. Of course, reading the transliteration, we lose the original tense, even the entire word. For some reason, they seem to transliterate the word's root instead of the word itself. The word used for "see" is spelled-

omnicron - o
iota - i
delta - d
alpha - a

"oida", yet transliterated "eido". What a shame.

Now, we take "oida" and go to Gerhard Kittel's theological dictionary, and get this -

"Oida is an Indo-Eur. perf. of the root "eid-", "id-" (-> eidos, eidenai, idein), though always used in the pres.: "to have realised = to know."

I could quote the rest, but the general idea is that "oida" never refers to "physically beholding" something, always to "perceive", as it is used of some 320 passages always refering to the idea "to know". This idea is portrayed in the passages -

Gal 4:8 - Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

and synonymous with "ginosko" throughout all of 1 John 4 -

1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

and

1Jo 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jo 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I think I have a healthy amount of proof to interpret John 3 as meaning "see" or "perceive" to prove regeneration prior to justification, Ben.

Please give me your response concerning etymology.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Regeneration preceeds faith.

Can a dead man revive himself?

If Justification came to all men then all men would be saved, Daaaaaaaaaaaaa

Proverbs 16:9 free will goes hand in hand with God's sovernity

God the Father picks the elect in the beginning .... eph 1:4
God the Father places His seed and gives a date for the spirit to be reborn.. 1 jn 3:9
Holy Spirit convience of a need of salvation... John 16:7-11, heb 1:14
Holy Spirit get satan and his demons out of the way ... 2 cor 4:3

When God does this Man believes.. jn 3:16 on God time frame...irrestible grace .. light of God... who cares mercy.. its great

Holy Spirit place us in to Christ ... 1 cor 12:12-13, eph 2:4-8 and seals us eph 1:13

God the son indwells us and gives us eternal life.. 1jn 5:11-13

God gives us credit... but why do the elders throw there crown for good works back at Christ feet... rev 4:10-11