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Featured Please Stop Saying "Replacement Theology"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Dungeon Master

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    Do you see the position you're assuming as you approach this discussion? You're assuming that your opponent has a pernicious view that they are unwilling to recognize. You're not seeking to understand them, but simply to steamroll them or triumph over them. It doesn't make for edifying dialogue.
     
  2. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Others have differing opinions.
     
  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Dungeon Master

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    No. I think Covenant Theology is a very well defined, fine term that describes my views. I would own it.
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Dungeon Master

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    I think you'll find that the ones who have the differing opinions are all on the other side of the aisle.
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Tree of Life: Please consider the following passage:

    Joshua 1:1
    Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, that the Lord spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ servant, saying, 2 “Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. 3 Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses. 4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory. 5 No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you.​

    Clearly Israel has NEVER in her history occupied the west bank of the Euphrates River (in Iraq)

    Do you believe that promise of real estate is still applicable to ethnic Israel? (aka the Jews)
     
  6. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I disagree of course, but not worth arguing

    Question is, am I am I wrong?
     
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Dungeon Master

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    I believe that the land promises were always being made to Jesus who is the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16, 2 Corinthians 1:20) and that they are ever expanding to include not only the parcel of land we call "Israel" but also the whole world (Romans 4:13, Matthew 5:5).
     
  8. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    So you do NOT believe they are presently applicable to ethnic Israel - aka the Jews.

    Correct?
     
  9. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Dungeon Master

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    Yes that's right. But I don't believe that were ever applicable in that sense.
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Until you answer the prior question, I'll assume I'm not wrong, you finally understand, and problem solved.
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    perhaps you should explain what your views are first before they are scrutinized into a label.
     
  12. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Moses thought they were applicable. So did Joshua.

    If they were in so much error on that, why did God have them author books in the bible?
     
  13. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm afraid of the word REPLACE is too active. It suggests that Christians themselves have moved in and pushed out national Israel. As if Christians are the active source of replacing.

    What actually happened according to the New Testament? What actually occurred from a purely Christian perspective is that first century Judaism rejected Jesus? They fell away. And so God called in Gentiles as substitutes.

    Offer that the term SUBSTITUTION would be more accurate and at least slightly less antagonizing.
     
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  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The REAL "replacement Theology" replaces the Faithful Servants with the unfaithful servants as the true Heirs.
    Such is OPPOSITE to scriptural teaching.

    In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4) and the rest were excommunicated out of the Covenant forever. That faithful remnant at that time constituted ALL Israel, and from that time forward ONLY the descendants of those 7000 were Gods Covenanted Israel. The rest, again, were cut off forever.

    That's how God preserves His remnant in times of Great Apostasy.

    Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham, while a faithful remnant remained ... and through the remnant and the remnant alone, "All Israel" Carried on...

    Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that "All Israel" continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); And again as mentioned above, in Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that "All Israel" narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then, as in times past, "All Israel" survived and continued on EXCLUSIVELY through the faithful sons, the Nazarene Sect (The REMNANT), while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people FOREVER.

    Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19).

    St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

    St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

    And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

    And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

    Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global.

    The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel.
    The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).


    The REAL "replacement theology" is the one who seeks to REPLACE the Faithful Sons of Abraham with the Wicked ones as the true Heirs.

    Such is, sadly, RAMPANT here on CF.
     
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  15. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Correct.
    Not at all. Gentiles were added in. They were not replacements or substitutes on any level. "Substitute" is just a softer way to say replaced.

    In fact, while it seems apparent all thru scripture that GOD wanted the gentiles in as well, only ONE VERSE of scripture tells us WHY.

    Romans 11:11
    I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.​

    Our very presence in the Kingdom of God is designed to draw in rebellious Israel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
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  16. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    It's Christian theology. Christians know that a remnant of Israel will be saved by becoming followers of Jesus Christ. Many gentiles will be saved by following Jesus Christ. Following Jesus Christ is being a Christian so the theology that sees Christians as the people of God called out of every nation is Christian theology and not replacement or any other epithet theology except Christian.

    The ancient churches never thought of "replacement theology" they just had Christian theology.
     
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  17. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My apologies in advance if I offend anyone, I just need to be truthful.

    I am a supersessionist. I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled the Old Covenant and started the New Covenant in which the Jewish Apostles were made the FOUNDATION and where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE.
    This whole replacement theology misconception can be traced back to people who teach that Jews do not need to be saved by Christ and that God has kept His Old Covenant valid for those who reject Him. How absurd and twisted can that be?
    But by all means lead the Jews astray by this erroneous teaching. God has blinded those who do not believe in the truth and until people do their own research on the matter they will continue to "believe in a lie".
    Think about it.

    PS: This is a sore subject for me. I love the Jewish people and am so dis-heartened by this teaching.

    Trying to convert Jews is a “waste of time,” he [Hagee] said. . . .

    Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced with Christianity, he says.

    “The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses,” Hagee said. “I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.

    “The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not,” said Hagee . . .9

    “There are right now Jewish people on this earth who have a powerful and special relationship with God,” declares Hagee in one of his books. “They have been chosen by the ‘election of grace’ in which God does what he does without asking man to approve or understand it. Let us put an end to the Christian chatter that “all the Jews are lost” and can’t be in the will of God until they convert to Christianity! . . . there are a certain number of Jews in relationship with God right now through divine election.” 10

    Hagee also affirms: “If God blinded the Jewish people to the identity of Jesus as Messiah, how could He send them to hell for not seeing what he had forbidden them to see?”
     
  18. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Only a remnant????

    Romans 11:25
    For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

    “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
    27 “This is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”

    28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​
     
  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus started the church with Jews who were His apostles. So, it is impossible for the church to replace the Israelites whom Jesus used to start His church. There were thousands of them.

    However, as we can read in Romans chapter 11, the Jews refusing Jesus have been broken away from Israel and we believing Gentiles have been grafted in in their place. But they are still called to trust in Jesus and join us.

    So, in any case the ones obeying Jesus certainly have not been replaced. Plus, any who repent of refusing Jesus are welcome to join us. So, we have not really replaced them, if they are welcome to become Jesus family brothers and sisters with us.
     
  20. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Not at all. That is "dual covenant" theory which has serious problems of its own. I do not ascribe to that concept at all.

    But Jeremiah and Paul are both clear - Every Jew will accept Jesus as lord and savior. And every physical promise to them will be fulfilled; not "spiritually" or "to the church," but to Physical Ethnic Israel.
     
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