[MOVED]Are you lawless?

[bugkiller]

Sure...we should know our history.

Besides, in my brief breakdown of the current [spiritual] dispensation, I did not elaborate on what that all means for our flesh during these times. Even though our flesh is quickened to do good works and otherwise dead to sin and the law, the law is still a guide or benchmark for keeping our flesh in check. The law was always good for that, and now is no different...except that we are no longer under it, but are free from the need. So...we do not "need" the law as in the first dispensation, but we should as much as "love" the law, because it should resonate within our soul and spirit. It is good.

Then you deny the work and place of the Holy Spirit IMHO.

bugkiller

 

[Meowzltov]

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"this is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAW on their mind and heart" Heb 8:6-10

Good choice of verses, Bob.

 

[bugkiller]

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's laws, Paul said that the law was spiritual (Romans 7:14), and Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who obeyed God by faith, so walking in the Spirit and saying that the righteous live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) are both referring to the correct way that someone should obey God's commands, not to a way of obeying God that is independent from obeying His commands. If you were to ask an Israelite what they thought sin was, they would point you to the law of Moses and the Bible defines sin as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Christians are lawless to the extent that we think God's laws have been done away with in contradiction Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-19.

No the role of the Holy spirit isn't to lead us to law observance.

bugkiller

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all,

What some mean by keeping the law is to obey the Sabbath.

But the Mosaic law written and engraved in stones was done away and is abolished in its ministration for believers. It was a ministration of condemnation and death. As Paul said in 2 Cor 3

Interestingly the Gentiles were not to be under the Mosaic law. The law and whole old Covenat was fading away and decaying and ready to vanish, why would God being gentiles under it then. Paul saw this and in dealt with the judaisers and circumcision groups who came in to spy out their liberty and bring them back under the law. All those who follow this path are similar today. They try to bring believers under the Mosaic law of ten commandements or any other laws of the old Covenant, to establish their righteousness and to keep the law. Then they will accuse believers who are in the Law of Christ that they do not keep the law of Moses and are lawless. This is wrong.

And in Acts 15 and 21 we read that the gentiles were not under the Mosaic law.

 

[LoveofTruth]

ISAIAH 8 [16] Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.[17] And I WILL WAIT UPON THE LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.[18] Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?[20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.
For those who desire to teach the law today

." 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "(1 Timothy 1:5-7

Your not saying Isaiah was doin some vain jangling are you?

Isaiah was in the old covenant and Paul speaks of those in the new Covenant and the end of the law. All the OT saints had too be under the law and it was needful for them to do what the law said.

But in the new covenant we read 2 Cor 3, about the law on stones ( ten commandments ) done away and abolished ..I know that section and many others in Galatians and Romans shatters many false views of some . But this s for the good and truth of the gospel.

 

[bugkiller]

To all,

What some mean by keeping the law is to obey the Sabbath.

But the Mosaic law written and engraved in stones was done away and is abolished in its ministration for believers. It was a ministration of condemnation and death. As Paul said in 2 Cor 3

Interestingly the Gentiles were not to be under the Mosaic law. The law and whole old Covenat was fading away and decaying and ready to vanish, why would God being gentiles under it then. Paul saw this and in dealt with the judaisers and circumcision groups who came in to spy out their liberty and bring them back under the law. All those who follow this path are similar today. They try to bring believers under the Mosaic law of ten commandements or any other laws of the old Covenant, to establish their righteousness and to keep the law. Then they will accuse believers who are in the Law of Christ that they do not keep the law of Moses and are lawless. This is wrong.

And in Acts 15 and 21 we read that the gentiles were not under the Mosaic law.

So let them accuse. Those who are founded in the Bible will continue to enjoy their freedom in Jesus Christ that the pro law people can't stand and are jealous of.

bugkiller

 

[ScottA]

Then you deny the work and place of the Holy Spirit IMHO.

bugkiller

I'm not sure how you mean that, but here is my original post (to which you were commenting somewhere down the line).

If we follow the two dispensations, the first, as of the flesh, and the second, as of the spirit (those born again of the spirit of God...i.e. first Adam, last Adam.....then we MUST consider (just as the scriptures say) that it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in me Galatians 2:20...and He is not lawless, but fulfills the law.

 

[Meowzltov]

No the role of the Holy spirit isn't to lead us to law observance.

bugkiller

sure it is

 

[ContraMundum]

You misunderstand the letter and the Spirit, and the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death. You misunderstand the ministration of the Mosaic law and the law of the Spirit

Do I? Read the OP again.

 

[ContraMundum]

What are you really asking? Do you think the Church should teach people its OK to do evil?

bugkiller

I am asking for opinions and reflections. Nothing more. I'm not even offering my own view. The question is there to be answered any way one sees fit. I'm interested in the responses.

 

[Meowzltov]

You misunderstand the letter and the Spirit, and the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death.

It's the same Law. The only "difference" is how you approach it.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's laws, Paul said that the law was spiritual (Romans 7:14), and Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who obeyed God by faith, so walking in the Spirit and saying that the righteous live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) are both referring to the correct way that someone should obey God's commands, not to a way of obeying God that is independent from obeying His commands. If you were to ask an Israelite what they thought sin was, they would point you to the law of Moses and the Bible defines sin as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Christians are lawless to the extent that we think God's laws have been done away with in contradiction Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-19.

Quite right.

And as in all cases with the Bible - "the details matter"

 

[LoveofTruth]

Quite right.

And as in all cases with the Bible - "the details matter"

The rule is to let the peace of Gid rule in our hearts by faith and our rule is to live in the new creation where God works in U.S. To will and to do .

Also the commands of Jesus are new and different from the law of condemnation and death . Paul said all he wrote in the Soirit was the commandment of the Lird. Unless he told us he did not specifically that he did not . Jesus would say did not Moses say yet I say .

And the law of the Spirit is different than the letter. Some twist scripture incredible to try and justify their mosaic law keeping. There is no way around 2 Cor 3 about the law on tables of stones being done awY and abolished and it being a ministration of condemnation and death . Yet some try hard to get around it. And the mosaic law was not for Gentiles on the new covenant either , acts 15 and acts 21

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's laws, Paul said that the law was spiritual (Romans 7:14), and Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who obeyed God by faith, so walking in the Spirit and saying that the righteous live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) are both referring to the correct way that someone should obey God's commands, not to a way of obeying God that is independent from obeying His commands. If you were to ask an Israelite what they thought sin was, they would point you to the law of Moses and the Bible defines sin as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Christians are lawless to the extent that we think God's laws have been done away with in contradiction Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-19.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Paul clearly rebukes this kind of thing exactly and I think you would not get along with Paul well, you may have joined the circumcision group with your words read slowly and consider this section and all who read on

" 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. "(Galatians 3:1-14)

Notice that Paul argues that they received the Spirit by the hearing of faith were they now to be made perfect by the works of the law. This word Paul speaks here rebukes the legality today who try to bring men under the law again

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's laws, Paul said that the law was spiritual (Romans 7:14), and Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who obeyed God by faith, so walking in the Spirit and saying that the righteous live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) are both referring to the correct way that someone should obey God's commands, not to a way of obeying God that is independent from obeying His commands. If you were to ask an Israelite what they thought sin was, they would point you to the law of Moses and the Bible defines sin as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Christians are lawless to the extent that we think God's laws have been done away with in contradiction Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-19.

That is exactly right --

"do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[BobRyan]

You couldn't be more wrong.

i think you have made a mistake.

Paul clearly teaches the continued role of the law in condemning the lost world in Gal 3 - and in Gal 3 it is not the law that is cursed but the sinner - so that Christ becomes "a curse for us". The perfect Law of God curses the sin.


" 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. "


Purpose of the Law
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Notice that Paul argues that they received the Spirit by the hearing of faith - when they are saved - when they accept the Gospel. And then the law no longer condemns them.


Thus the LAW of Gal 3 continues even after the cross - for it is not at all against/opposed-to the promises of God!

We see the SAME continued moral law of God in Rom 3

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

the LAW of God continues to this day to define what sin is.

 

[Meowzltov]

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

I need to do better about memorizing these scriptures. Thanks.

 

[BobRyan]

The rule is to let the peace of Gid rule in our hearts by faith and our rule is to live in the new creation where God works in U.S. To will and to do .

Also the commands of Jesus are new and different from the law of condemnation and death . Paul said all he wrote in the Soirit was the commandment of the Lird. Unless he told us he did not specifically that he did not . Jesus would say did not Moses say yet I say .

And the law of the Spirit is different than the letter. Some twist scripture incredible to try and justify their mosaic law keeping. There is no way around 2 Cor 3 about the law on tables of stones being done awY and abolished and it being a ministration of condemnation and death . Yet some try hard to get around it. And the mosaic law was not for Gentiles on the new covenant either , acts 15 and acts 21

Heb 8:6-10 says that Christ's commandments include those He gave at Sinai.
Jer 31:31-33 the New Covenant - "LAW" is the moral Law of God - His Commandments - known to Jeremiah and affirmed again for us in Heb 8. "Law Written on the mind and heart" under the NEW Covenant
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

 

[BobRyan]

Which brings us to the affirmation of God's Ten Commandments in Romans 8.

In Romans 7 Paul contrasts the law of the "sinful nature" vs the Law of God - that is Holy and good. The law of the sinful nature brings death and is contrasted this way with God's Law.

Romans 7
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

In Romans 8 that law of the sinful nature is called "the Law of sin and death".

And those enslaved to it - "Do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed can they" according to Romans 8.





As we saw here --=============================================================

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68476380, member: 235244"]NT saints still show that they Love God - when they "Keep God's commandments".

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

And so then what about "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."?? Romans 8:2 -- does it free us to take God's name in vain to be set free from the "Law of Sin and death" or does it simply refer to Romans 7

Romans 7
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."?? Romans 8:2

What a mistake then to equate the Law of God that Paul agrees with - (that includes the TEN Commandments according to Rom 7) -- into the "Law of sin"


Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (KJV)

Rom 8 (NKJV)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8 (NASB)
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[/QUOTE]

 

[Meowzltov]

Also the commands of Jesus are new and different from the law of condemnation and death

Really? Give me at least two commandments that are new.