[MOVED]Are you lawless?

[Poster0]

That's sad. I don't want to complicate your life, but I'd like to let you know that the Gospel isn't a burden, in fact it lifts burdens:

Matthew 11:28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Receiving a gift, a blessing and not knowing what it is would be like Abraham becoming a father, and then going away on a long journey, rather than enjoying that gift.

The blessing will make you purposeful, and effective, give meaning to life:

John 4:10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

John 4:10Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 7:38He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

It would be such a waste to leave the gift unopened, the blessing unused.

It is sad but you misunderstand my meaning i think. I have peace in the Lord, but its this strife, by which this debate comes, that causes me grief. I am happy to follow the commands of Christ, and happy to live under grace too. However i experience grief when people try to tell me that i am wrong to follow commands. Its not the gospel that brings me grief, its how some people are preaching it that brings me grief.

When i say that its good to follow the commands of Christ and Paul, or if i post one of those commandments, why do people treat me like im wrong? They actually try to destroy my faith and peace by telling me its the wrong faith. Paul did say that everyone who would live godly in this world would be persecuted, so i guess that's why i am treated that way.

 

[Poster0]

They also play games with the word(s) commandment(s) too thinking anytime that word is written it refers to the Ten.

Some so called "pro grace" posters cant even agree that its good to follow any commandments at all. They think that any time the word "command" is used that it means "Law", and even the commands of Paul himself are the Law to them. Isnt that irrational though? Are they not playing games with words as well? They seem to suggest that following the written commands of Paul and Christ is somehow putting our self under the law.

I have voiced my concerns about it, but those posters just ignore me, or misapply some Galatians scripture and then ignore me. Its really not edifying because they seem condescending and proud, as if they are too good to discuss it with me. They usually just post some one liner and then ignore you. Im telling you, that is not rational or in the spirit of love either. They act like once we read the commands of Christ that we must just throw them out. However, i have found, like so many other Christians, that those commands are very valuable, and its good to mediate on them always. Its good to be reminded of those things. Even Peter and Paul knew it was necessary to remind the congregation about the commands and teaching of Christ.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It is sad but you misunderstand my meaning i think. I have peace in the Lord, but its this strife, by which this debate comes, that causes me grief. I am happy to follow the commands of Christ, and happy to live under grace too. However i experience grief when people try to tell me that i am wrong to follow commands. Its not the gospel that brings me grief, its how some people are preaching it that brings me grief.

When i say that its good to follow the commands of Christ and Paul, or if i post one of those commandments, why do people treat me like im wrong? They actually try to destroy my faith and peace by telling me its the wrong faith. Paul did say that everyone who would live godly in this world would be persecuted, so i guess that's why i am treated that way.

Well the teaching is nuanced.

Here is an analogy, that helps to identify what is being criticised:

God promised He would make Abraham a father (divine gift).

Sarah tried to hurry things along by using Hagar to make Abraham a father (human effort, showing disbelief in God's ability).

This resulted in a son born to be a slave.

Similarly God promised to make Abraham's Seed a blessing to the world.



Law keepers try to use the law (which they mistake for doing good works, when the law is to hear with faith, believe, that God will make you a good tree, to bear good fruit) for illogical purpose (its necessary to follow God's commandments to do good works , not for salvation but to be obedient) with no relevance to God's instruction, ignorantly displaying disbelief in God's ability to fulfil His promise.

Can you identify what you do wrong when you try to use works as a way of being a Christian?

 

[Poster0]

Well the teaching is nuanced.

Here is an analogy, that helps to identify what is being criticised:

God promised He would make Abraham a father (divine gift).

Sarah tried to hurry things along by using Hagar to make Abraham a father (human effort, showing disbelief in God's ability).

This resulted in a son born to be a slave.

Similarly God promised to make Abraham's Seed a blessing to the world.



Law keepers try to use the law for illogical purpose with no relevance to Gods instruction, ignornatly dusplaying disbelief in God's ability to fulfil His promise.

Can you identify what you do wrong when you try to use works as a way of being a Christian?

First off, lets call me a follower of Christs commandments, not a law keeper.

Secondly, i am forever trying to show how the commands that teach us to live in holiness are actually about love.

A person doesn't need to understand the commands given by paul and Christ right away because we learn, but they do need to keep those things in their heart and mind, and strive to live by them as well. All they must understand at first is that no one can boast, and no one can earn salvation. The reason they don't need to understand the commands of Paul and Christ is that paul makes it clear that we should walk in love and for that reason not commit adultery and other such commands.

Also, many of Christs commands actually lead us to abstain from hate and pride which is good, not bad. It leads us away from being flesh driven Christians into spiritual driven Christians. That's the purpose of those commands, to help us put off the flesh and put on Christ. Its was Christ who said "judge not" and "forgive always" and "dont be like the hypocrites". Are those bad commands to follow? Surely not.

The commands teach us how to love and how to put off carnal things that war against our soul. We should always mediate on the commands, and on love and on walking in the spirit. WE should not throw those things out, never. Its not human effort if someone knows that they cannot earn salvation. Its good to preach that we cannot earn salvation. Lets preach it always. However you cant throw out the commands of Christ and Paul when preaching that message. Its bad understanding and bad teaching to do so. Its just plain sloppy and irressponsible teaching

 

[Wordkeeper]

First off, lets call me a follower of Christs commandments, not a law keeper.

Secondly, i am forever trying to show how the commands that teach us to live in holiness are actually about love.

A person doesn't need to understand the commands given by paul and Christ right away because we learn, but they do need to keep those things in their heart and mind, and strive to live by them as well. All they must understand at first is that no one can boast, and no one can earn salvation. The reason they don't need to understand the commands of Paul and Christ is that paul makes it clear that we should walk in love and for that reason not commit adultery and other such commands.

Also, many of Christs commands actually lead us to abstain from hate and pride which is good, not bad. It leads us away from being flesh driven Christians into spiritual driven Christians. That's the purpose of those commands, to help us put off the flesh and put on Christ. Its was Christ who said "judge not" and "forgive always" and dont be like the "hypocrites". Are those bad commands to follow? Surely not.

The commands teach us how to love and ho to put off carnal things that war against our soul. We should always mediate on the commands, and on love and on walking in the spirit. WE should not throw those things out, never. Its not human effort if someone knows that they cannot earn salvation. Its good to preach that we cannot earn salvation. Lets preach it always. However you cant throw out the commands of Christ and Paul when preaching that message. Its bad understanding and bad teaching to do so. Its just plain sloppy teaching

In simple terms, using human effort to do what God promised to do by His Spirit is disbelief in His ability to fulfil His promise, to make us a blessing to the world, by bearing good fruit, by making the tree good, is like Sarah's actions and is dishonoring to God.

 

[Poster0]

In simple terms, using human effort to do what God promised to do by His Spirit is disbelief in His ability to fulfil His promise, to make us a blessing to the world, by bearing good fruit, by making the tree good, is like Sarah's actions and is dishonoring to God.

You misunderstand Paul's teaching it seems. Paul teaches us that we cant have fruit in the spirit by walking in the flesh, so he urges us to put off those evil works. Walking in the flesh is not just what you think it is, but its also doing works of the flesh. Thats why the commands teach us to putt off those evil works. Don't you see that when throw out the commands we only become proud instead of humble? Its not human effort to follow the commands because we will fail at times and that humbles us, and it teaches us about Gods grace even more because we see how its needed, and that in itself is a fruit of the spirit. Meditating on and living by the commands of Christ opens our eyes to our own carnal ways, and this truth we learn is a fruit of the spirit. Following the commands are not self effort if we are humbled by them and if we are praying for Gods help.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You misunderstand Paul's teaching it seems. Paul teaches us that we cant have fruit in the spirit by walking in the flesh, so he urges us to put off those evil works. Walking in the flesh is not just what you think it is, but its also doing works of the flesh. Thats why the commands teach us to putt ofs those evil works. Don't you see that when throw out the commands we only become proud instead of humble? Its not human effort to follow the commands because we will fail at times and that humbles us, and it teaches us about Gods grace even more because we see how its needed, and that in itself is a fruit of the spirit. Meditating on and living by the commands of Christ opens our eyes to our own carnal ways, and that truth we learn is a fruit of the spirit. Following the commands are not self effort if we are humbled by them and if we are praying for Gods help.

This is how we follow God's commandments to believe in His ability to make us blessings to the world, able to share in Christ's work of suffering and dying for the world, as perfect sacrifices:

1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Philippians 3:7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Poster0]

Seriously just use your God given common sense here. If paul didnt want people to use their effort to obey Commands, then why does he teach us to mediate on His commands, and to live by them?

Human effort is when we think our ability will save us. Thats human effort. However its not human effort to strive in obeying the commands of Christ because it is sanctified by God. He commands that live by those things, and so surely its not wrong to use our effort to live by them. What else are we suppose to do? Just throw out the commands altogether and wait for God to make us holy? WE are already declared holy, but God still commands that we follow holiness.

You guys are not teaching anything that any respected Church teaches. I have never heard any preacher teach that we must not try to follow Christs commands. Never have i ever heard such a thing from any respected Church leader, never

That should be an indication that your theology is wrong.

 

[Poster0]

This is how we follow God's commandments to believe in His ability to make us blessings to the world, able to share in Christ's work of suffering and dying for the world, as perfect sacrifices:

1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Philippians 3:7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

You're just quoting scripture. If i quote that scripture too then does that mean we agree? Your theology is flawed and needs to be corrected.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Seriously just use your God given common sense here. If paul didnt want people to use their effort to obey Commands, then why does he teach us to mediate on His commands, and to live by them?

Human effort is when we think our ability will save us. Thats human effort. However its not human effort to strive in obeying the commands of Christ because it is sanctified by God. He commands that live by those things, and so surely its not wrong to use our effort to live by them. What else are we suppose to do? Just throw out the commands altogether and wait for God to make us holy? WE are already declared holy, but God still commands that we follow holiness.

You guys are not teaching anything that any respected Church teaches. I have never heard any preacher teach that we must not try to follow Christs commands. Never have i ever heard such a thing from any respected Church leader, never

That should be an indication that your theology is wrong.

Quote scripture please.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You're just quoting scripture. If i quote that scripture too then does that mean we agree? Your theology is flawed and needs to be corrected.

You can't escape the fact that Sarah's human effort was given a negative vote.

 

[Poster0]

Quote scripture please.

I have quoted scripture in this forum and the "grace camp"just ignores it. I would prefer to work from common sense here. Talking to posters such as yourself (no offence) is like talking to a deaf man. Its futile

 

[Poster0]

You can't escape the fact that Sarah's human effort was given a negative vote.

You cant escape the fact that paul gives us commands and rebukes those who dont obey them. You cant escape the fact That Jesus said whoever hears and obeys his words/commands will be considered wise, and you cant escape the fact that Paul says that we should not be unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is (Ephesians 5). He says that after issuing many commands that you claim are foolish. Paul however says they are wise, just as Christ says his commands are wise.

Seriously your theology is nonsense. I don't mean to use such a harsh word but thats what is, and your stiff neck responses which ignore this truth are even more so.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You cant escape the fact that paul gives us commands and rebukes those who dont obey them. You cant escape the fact That Jesus said whoever hears and obeys his words/commands will be considered wise, and you cant escape the fact that Paul says that we should not be unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is (Ephesians 5). He says that after issuing many commands that you claim are foolish. Paul however says they are wise, just as Christ says his commands are wise.

Seriously your theology is nonsense. I don't mean to use such a harsh word but thats what is, and your stiff neck responses which ignore this truth are even more so.

You are correct. Paul teaches us to put to death the deeds of the body.

Romans 5:for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


However, it is by the Spirit, which is by hearing with faith. Listening to God's promise and believing that He will fulfill them:

Galatians 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

 

[Poster0]

Galatians 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Here is how i began, Read this scripture below and tell me, is it foolish?

Is it of the spirit or the law?

Have i built my faith on the law or is the foundation Christ?

Is it foolish or wise?




Mathew 5:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.


Ephesians 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

 

[Poster0]

However, it is by the Spirit, which is by hearing with faith. Listening to God's promise and believing that He will fulfill them:

You said i should be listening to Gods promises and believing that he will fulfill them? I follow these promises below. Is it wise or foolish if i follow them? Likewise, Is it wise or foolish if i don't follow these promises?


Mathew 5:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.


Ephesians 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

 

[Poster0]

Do you see something here? Is the authority i put myself under the authority of Christ, or the Law?


28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Do you see something here? Is the authority i put myself under the authority of Christ, or the Law?


28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

No one is questioning that the results, fruits are required. However, obedience to God's instruction is to expect the good works to be fruit of a good tree, which God will make you, by the Spirit, not your own efforts.

 

[Poster0]

No one is questioning that the results, fruits are required. However, obedience to God's instruction is to expect the good works to be fruit of a good tree, which God will make you, by the Spirit, not your own efforts.

If Christ himself said, that if i here and obey his teaching it will be wise, and if he promises that its like building my house on a Rock, then should i not believe his promise and follow it? He promises that the winds will blow hard and the waters will rise, but my house will stand. This scripture often reminds me of what paul said about being blown around by the winds of doctrine and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Notice that in the Ephesians 4-5 scripture, paul gives many commands, just as Christ does in his sermon on the mount. They both mention "winds" and being "wise", and they both give us doctrine in the form of "commands". They seem so very similar in those ways.


Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.


7 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[Poster0]

Further more, its not wrong to put effort into obeying the Lords commands. No respected Church leader would ever suggest that its wrong to putt effort behind obeying those commands.