[MOVED]Are you lawless?

[bugkiller]

The old Covenant - is still in effect as Romans 3 states -- it causes "every mouth to be shut and ALL THE WORLD accountable to God" it declares that mankind is lost - going to hell. It says that everyone needs salvation -- no one is going to heaven simply because of 'Genetics' -

True in OT. True in NT.
But the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 brings with it the New Birth and the LAW of God written on the heart as we see in Deut 6:6 and Jer 31:31-33 - thus for the one that is born-again (whether OT or NT) the NEW Covenant replaces the Old.

It doesn't bring the OC law along with God's "My law." See the first part of the sentence which says new as in cut a new stone and not according to. Yet you claim it is the same and merely moved. The reference says nothing about moving the OC Law.

In Heb 10 the Old Covenant is not "by Moses" rather it is "given by Christ"

Oh, where, please?

No Lost person is under the New Covenant until they accept the Gospel.

Your point is.... Can a person keep the law and possess salvation? I don't think so. Jesus said everyone will go through Him only or not get in. Those who try are thieves and robbers according to Jesus. You exclude Jesus and the Cross with you partial quote from I Cor 7:19.

No saved person is NOT under the New Covenant - ever... in all of time because the New Covenant is the Gospel - and there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9

And what exactly is this gospel? Is it the law or keeping the law?

More precisely -

12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

The lost - are NOT "in Christ" and so for them nothing at all in the OC is "lifted"... the veil remains. Romans 8:4-9 also points to the same problem.

So why do you wonder why we don't much quote the OT? Just read the above quote to find out why? I'll be if you didn't even emphasize it is removed in Jesus the Christ.

It is only "removed in Christ" 2Cor 3.. only "WHEN faith comes" Gal 3 - for those who are born-again, new creation, saved.

You really don't believe this or you're declaring you have no faith.

The lost are still under it. As Paul points out in Romans 3:19-21 "ALL the WORLD" accountable before God. All the world "under the LAW" Rom 3:19-21... still...to this very day.

Here you're declaring you're lost because your claim is we're under meaning obligated to the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

False.

Oh.

The actual Bible teaches that the LAW of God is the SAME in both covenants.

Where? How does new mean the same as something previous? How does not according to also mean the same as?

Jer 31 insists on it because Jeremiah and his readers knew of only GOD's Law and Jeremiah 31:31-33 does NOT say "Someday I will make a NEW LAW not like the LAW that I made in the actual Bible - but some Law that is kept secret or now" -- no such text. No such fiction turning into an actual Bible text. And you and I both know it -- hence your difficulty so far.

No sir. You're requiring me to believe new means the same or amended in your case.

You can't possibly be serious. That has only been quoted two dozen times so far. more attention to Bible detail... less sniping -- = a more productive discussion.

Christ GAVE us the TEN commandments at Sinai -

That isn't what Moses says in Deut 4 and 5.

HEB 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

Are you even reading the above? It clearly says better covenant and promises. It doesn't say anything about law.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

It says nothing about writing the covenant, renewing nor amending the previous covenant. Read what is there.

1 Cor 10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual Rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ

Yet the Pharisees said we have Moses and refused to follow Jesus. How is it you take the above to mean they did at anytime?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

True because I read 1 Cor 3, and Gal 3, and Romans 3.

Under the Old Covenant - "ALL the world" is "under the LAW" and "All the WORLD" remains in that condition to this very day - because it is only removed "in Christ".

The contrast is always between being lost vs being saved. Being condemned by the LAW of God - vs having faith in Christ - under the New Covenant.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;


The LAW of God by itself - without the Gospel - is the Old Covenant. It condemns all mankind - from Adam to this very day. It defines the lost condition.

But the Law IN the Gospel - is the NEW Covenant "THIS is the NEW Covenant that I will make...I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10, Jer 31:31-33

Gal 3
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.



2 Cor 3
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty

"SCRIPTURE" shut up everyone under SIN -

That is not salvation folds - that is "being lost".

And only the saved have escaped that "Obey and Live" covenant - first given to Adam.

And the saved include all those of Heb 11 - and it includes Moses and Elijah in Matt 17.

Bob its very clear to us your confidence is in the law rather than Jesus.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

the Old Covenant is the original "contract" or "Agreement" between God and man in Gen 2 - -- it is LAW without the Gospel. "Obey and Live" as given to Adam and under which all who reject the Gospel are lost.

Where do you get this from?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ex 20 says to rest and Is 66:23 says to come before God and worship and Lev 23:3 - rest and holy convocation.

Why in the world would you think that the OT writers needed Ellen White to tell them that?

If it requires rest, explain why you require others to do secular work. It seems to me you require people to go to hell for your personal convenience. How then can you justify to us you're truly concerned for our salvation?

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

If it requires rest, explain why you require others to do secular work. It seems to me you require people to go to hell for your personal convenience. How then can you justify to us you're truly concerned for our salvation?

bugkiller

This is one thing that escapes me, if everyone was under the Law then there would probably be a movement to not require any services from anyone on the Sabbath other than emergency medical services everyone should stay at home because the Sabbath too but instead we have people who take advantage of those who aren't keeping the Sabbath so they can have services and even drive around to church and turn on the lights there and run the heating and AC and sound system too. I would imagine if all Sabbath keepers used minimal power on the Sabbath they could probably do with less people working at the power plants.. maybe even shut a few down and let those people take the day off too. Let cops who have to patrol the street on Saturday have the day off too.

 

[Bob S]

My point is your selectivity in plucking a couple of verses out of their context to support your reformed method of observing the Sabbath. What do you think God would say about people kindling fires on the Sabbath?

I know what He would have said to the Israelites. The fact is that today He has given us a new covenant, making the old one obsolete. The 10 with the Sabbath command were temporary and Christians are not bound by the ritual Sabbath command of the Israelite nation. 2Cor 3:7-11. Pretty simple isn't it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I know what He would have said to the Israelites. The fact is that today He has given us a new covenant, making the old one obsolete. The 10 with the Sabbath command were temporary and Christians are not bound by the ritual Sabbath command of the Israelite nation. 2Cor 3:7-11. Pretty simple isn't it.

It really is. I am always amazed at folks who want to complicate it.

 

[Sophrosyne]

It really is. I am always amazed at folks who want to complicate it.

I've found those who complicate things do so with stumbling blocks in their theology.