MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

[jgr]

Your argument if full of unkoshered pork.
All of Israel and Judah are Jews.
The status is what the article said.
The point is you are trying to get the Gentiles to be not only spiritual Jews to the extreme and seem to imply that DNA and because the Jews have been scattered so much the Gentiles will be incorporated with the Jews physically in the Kingdom promises concerning the land and the kingdom because they will all be physical and ethnic Jews because of Jewish ancestry. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

You still haven't answered post 555.

You state above "All of Israel and Judah are Jews." How do you know they are if you can't define "Jew"? Is it Jew by ethnicity, or Jew by "status"? If status, why did Paul never mention anything about status? He identified his brethren in Romans 9:3 solely ethnically, "my kinsmen according to the flesh".

You bring in "Gentiles" above when the word does not appear in my posts related to this particular issue.

 

[BABerean2]

Even if Jews and Gentiles were to share at the head of the nations there would still be ethnic people.

Rom 2:28　 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:　
Rom 2:29　 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.　



Gal 3:28　 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.　
Gal 3:29　 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.　



1Ti 1:4　 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.　

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You still haven't answered post 555.

You state above "All of Israel and Judah are Jews." How do you know they are if you can't define "Jew"? Is it Jew by ethnicity, or Jew by "status"? If status, why did Paul never mention anything about status? He identified his brethren in Romans 9:3 solely ethnically, "my kinsmen according to the flesh".

You bring in "Gentiles" above when the word does not appear in my posts related to this particular issue.

jgr,

1. The Jew thing was about th article you had about Jewish ancestry and DNA and included status. That what the article said and I told you that.

2. I also said the British-Israelis teaching by Herbert Armstrong, founder of the World Wide Church Of God , was about the difference in a Hebrew and a Jew through ancestry of Hebrews etc. Do you believe this? If you don't, don't worry about.

2. The Bible sometimes uses the House of Israel by itself as all twelve tribes and in the split after Solomon, the northern kingdom of 10 tribes was taken over by Solomon's son Jereboam and he called them the House of Israel and made their capital Samaria. Rehoboam and had the region of Judah and maintained Jerusalem as its capital and was called the house of Judah.
Don't confuse the house and the region because Benjamin and Simeon had been absorbed, the faithful of the northern tribes migrated to the south where temple worship was politically correct.
These faithful are integrated with the south for tribes refers to regions assigned not necessarily the people themselves.
The idolaters of the Southern Kingdom went to the Northern kingdom and was taken captive by Assyria.
All in the Southern kingdom were freed by the Persians in 536 B.C.
The 12 tribes are evident in the post-exile records of Ezra and Nehemiah and other Old Testament writings and the New Testament in James and Peter (Chuck Misslers Learn the Bible in 24 hours, pg. 88).
So there is no such thing as the Ten lost tribes.
God always has and always will make a way for Israel to come back to him.

3. All Israel is all twelve tribes and the captives from Babylon are so called Ezra 2:2, 59, 70, 3:1, 6:21 and more in Nehemiah 2:10, 7:7, 61, 73 etc.
The Jews are still representative of "all Israel".
Other tribes besides Judah were called Jews during the Captivities Esther 2:5; 3:4-6; 5:13; 6:10; 8:7-17; 9:1-32; 10:1-3 (Dake's God's Plan For Man pg. 713).
Other nations became Jews Esther 8:17.
Proselytes would be Jews because of converting to Judaism Acts 2:10.

4. Jews are of the whole house of Israel which all the tribes belong to.
The promise of the KoH reign for Israel is ethnic not because you are a Gentile that can be referred to as a spiritual Jew of the church age.
It is because God has chosen them and it's for his glory.
Quit muddying up the subject because you want the Gentiles to fulfill the Jews gifts and callings Romans 11:29.
Why should God choose you or I to be a ruler throughout the KoH reign? Because he declared if ye suffer ye shall reign.
If God would have said the gentiles were going to be at the head of the nations he would have said it but he didn't.
Peter and the disciples are Jews and were part of the church and will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel for God said they would Matthew 19:28.

5. God is preserving the ethnic Jewish nation for their specific gifts and calling of the line of David which is an unconditional eternal covenant started in 2 Samuel 7:16; 13-16.
It was conditioned by obedience which is not a question of if as it is when which will be when the Gentiles be come in. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Rom 2:28　 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:　
Rom 2:29　 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.　



Gal 3:28　 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.　
Gal 3:29　 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.　



1Ti 1:4　 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.　

.

baberean2,

1. You are like a bad broken record.

2. We both agree that we can be called a spiritual Jew in context of salvation and it has nothing to do with ethnicity for God saves all people.

3. Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean there will be no ethnicities or races in them. It just means that all races are one spiritually in the body of Christ.

4. Galatians 3:29 is all about the seed of Abraham and salvation.
The Abrahamic covenant has nothing to do with the Davidic covenant dealing with the house and throne.
The land for Israel the nation is connected to the house and throne of David. This is not what is meant in Galatians 3:29 and you can't prove it by scripture and it's context.
You just think because we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham that it includes things it doesn't.
The promise is salvation of the soul which is connected with Abraham and righteousness by faith not by the law which could not save a person's soul otherwise righteousness would have been by the Law of Moses.
Righteousness by faith vs. righteousness by the law, nothing about positions of authority in the Davidic covenant or land in the KoH reign.

5. 1 Timothy is talking about things from love of a pure heart, good conscience and of faith unfeigned.
It also talks about the civil law which is for the disobedient.
There is nothing about the KoH reign positions of authority of the gifts and callings of Israel.
Many Judaizers used their genealogies that had the covenants and promises before the Gentiles were grafted in as to show superiority over the Gentiles. The same way would be applied to the future but this doesn't mean that Jews were superior for they were full of pride and it also doesn't mean that their Covenant gifts and callings were disannulled or that the Gentiles would inherit those gifts and callings of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants.
You are going to seed and taking the scriptures out of context.
Galatians is talking about the promise of salvation in the Abrahamic covenant and not through the Mosaic law nothing else, especially the Davidic Covenant concerning the House and Throne of David.
The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are two different covenants. Jerry kelso

 

[jgr]

God is preserving the ethnic Jewish nation

So it is ethnic. Maybe we're getting closer.

When you say "nation" do you mean the current nation of Israel? If so, what about Jewish ethnics around the world outside of Israel?

Or do you just use "nation" to represent the group of all ethnic Jews around the world, both inside and outside of the nation of Israel?

 

[BABerean2]

The Abrahamic covenant has nothing to do with the Davidic covenant dealing with the house and throne.
The land for Israel the nation is connected to the house and throne of David. This is not what is meant in Galatians 3:29 and you can't prove it by scripture and it's context.
You just think because we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham that it includes things it doesn't.

Once a person becomes an heir of the most High God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob there is no distinction between the inheritance of the heirs, based on their DNA.

My relationship with God has nothing to do with who my mother and father are.
It depends on my relationship with God's Son.
This is one of the greatest errors of your doctrine.

Your doctrine is at least partially based on race, instead of completely on Grace.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by the Son of God in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to Christ's Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
Once a person comes to understand the above, your Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

.

 

[keras]

Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9 The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10 [Note the plural: nations]

Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26

Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?
The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His people when they go back into the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27, Revelation 14:1-7

The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite [Christian] and Gentile [non Christian] nations. The detailed prophesies of what will happen, then His people’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 49:8, Ezekiel 40 to 48

The truth about the Lord’s plan for all who qualify to be Israelite’s is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people, all true Christian believers who will live in His Land, as He originally intended. Isaiah 62:1-5, Amos 9:13-15

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you came. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.

Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.

When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to God’s holy people, who are now every faithful Christian believer: from every race nation and language, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is: the short period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come.
It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirm that their fulfilment is imminent.

The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of all His people into their heritage of the holy Land.

 

[jerry kelso]

So it is ethnic. Maybe we're getting closer.

When you say "nation" do you mean the current nation of Israel? If so, what about Jewish ethnics around the world outside of Israel?

Or do you just use "nation" to represent the group of all ethnic Jews around the world, both inside and outside of the nation of Israel?

jgr,

1. The season seems to be the beginning of sorrows which leads to the tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble.
The world is fully populated and the globalist movement is showing their true colors in different ways.
However, at the same time the Christians started praying and President Trump came into the picture.
If the globalist agenda is put off it could be the next generation of Israel and if not it could be the current nation today.
The powers to be want it soon.

2. The ethnic Jews have been and are and will be in the tribulation regathering.
In the tribulation their national light will almost be snuffed out so the situation will be different than right now.
Some say there will be a false regathering in the tribulation.
To be honest Revelation 7 has the tribes of Israel which have to be the ones that will be preserved in the wilderness except for the 144,000 who are raptured as the man child in the middle of the tribulation. Got to go. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Once a person becomes an heir of the most High God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob there is no distinction between the inheritance of the heirs, based on their DNA.

My relationship with God has nothing to do with who my mother and father are.
It depends on my relationship with God's Son.
This is one of the greatest errors of your doctrine.

Your doctrine is at least partially based on race, instead of completely on Grace.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by the Son of God in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to Christ's Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
Once a person comes to understand the above, your Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

.

baberean2,

1. Your post sounds like you're mad if you are not going to be at the head of the nations.

2. I noticed you didn't say anything about the Davidic Covenant which is ethnic Nation of Israel of which all will be saved.
This deals with the ethic nation of Israel being at the head of the nations and the house and throne of David where David will be King over Israel and the apostles will rule over the twelve tribes. Jerusalem will be the earthly capital in ethic land of Israel.

3. The Abrahamic Covenant ethnically will be the land of Israel will be enlarged for God promised it to them just like he promised the Davidic house and throne to ethnic nation of Israel. It is because God promised it to them go his name's sake. Read your Bible and believe the truth and quit making up things that are not scriptural.

4. Salvation is for all men and for all races of men but because of God's grace and not works not because they are a particular race.

5. Your dna context is a bunch of baloney.
Families can have the same DNA and not inherit everything another sibling has.
The same thing is physical DNA with a family that we are related.
Spiritual DNA that all Jews and Gentiles have is salvation from sin.
We do inherit things that have to do with faith etc. that deal with the Christian life and overcoming the enemy by the blood etc. but not the gifts and calling specific to ethnic Israel and vice versa there are things promised to the church that is not promised to Israel. Have to go. Jerry kelso

 

[jgr]

jgr,

1. The season seems to be the beginning of sorrows which leads to the tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble.
The world is fully populated and the globalist movement is showing their true colors in different ways.
However, at the same time the Christians started praying and President Trump came into the picture.
If the globalist agenda is put off it could be the next generation of Israel and if not it could be the current nation today.
The powers to be want it soon.

2. The ethnic Jews have been and are and will be in the tribulation regathering.
In the tribulation their national light will almost be snuffed out so the situation will be different than right now.
Some say there will be a false regathering in the tribulation.
To be honest Revelation 7 has the tribes of Israel which have to be the ones that will be preserved in the wilderness except for the 144,000 who are raptured as the man child in the middle of the tribulation. Got to go. Jerry kelso

Didn't answer the question. But, do you agree with what these ethnic Jews say about their ethnicity?
"...the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions."

 

[BABerean2]

Your dna context is a bunch of baloney.
Families can have the same DNA and not inherit everything another sibling has.

One of our preacher's sons recently adopted a young son.
That young man now has exactly the same rights as a natural child.

Those in the family of God do inherit the same thing, as clearly revealed in Galatians chapter 3.


You are once again attempting to replace the One Seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.　

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Didn't answer the question. But, do you agree with what these ethnic Jews say about their ethnicity?
"...the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions."

jgr,

1. I will study it out but it doesn't change the the fact that scripture records the Davidic Covenant is promised to the nation of the ethnic Jew and not Gentiles for his holy name's sake not because they are a superior race.
The Abrahamic promise concerning the land is enlarged in the Kingdom for ethnic Israel because God promised.
Both covenants are eternal with the etnic jew. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

One of our preacher's sons recently adopted a young son.
That young man now has exactly the same rights as a natural child.

Those in the family of God do inherit the same thing, as clearly revealed in Galatians chapter 3.


You are once again attempting to replace the One Seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.　

.

baberean2,

1. I have a stepdaughter and I always treated her like my own child and she had the same privileges of a natural child.

2. As a christian Jew and Gentile of the church we have all the same faith to believe God for salvation and access to his power to work in our lives through healing and mercy, forgiveness, love and subdue the enemy.
We will all go to heaven and have positions of authority.
However, positions of authority will be different due to being faithful steward.

3. The better example of a will would be that a parent draws up and show that he may leave the house to one child and another child all his important souvenirs. He can have good reasons whether the one child might be better to keep up the house while the other loves the sentimental value that they value more.

4. God has declared in his Davidic Covenant the Jewish nation would have the house and throne in Davids line and mercy would never depart from him unlike Saul. This covenant is unconditionally eternal covenant.
The condition of repentance will happen because it is unconditionally eternal.
It is ethnic Israel because God said so, not because they are a superior race or they deserve it. God will do it for his Holy name's sake period.
So your adopted son example is the wrong example and your whole doctrine is just plain wrong and robs Israel of its gifts and callings and misses the true calling of the church in the kingdom age on earth and throughout the universe Colossians 1:16. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

God has declared in his Davidic Covenant the Jewish nation would have the house and throne in Davids line and mercy would never depart from him unlike Saul. This covenant is unconditionally eternal covenant.

Mat 1:1　 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.　


Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.　

.

 

[keras]

I will study it out but it doesn't change the the fact that scripture records the Davidic Covenant is promised to the nation of the ethnic Jew and not Gentiles for his holy name's sake not because they are a superior race.
The Abrahamic promise concerning the land is enlarged in the Kingdom for ethnic Israel because God promised.
Both covenants are eternal with the etnic jew. Jerry kelso

You fail to see how the Jewish people themselves voided the Covenant and how Jesus opened the Promises and Blessings of God to all who would receive Him.
God’s work with and the development of His people, faithful Israelites; in the Old Testament is continued in the New Testament. Those who presumed that ancestry gave them privileges were chastened. John the Baptist’s strong language indicates how seriously God viewed their pride and arrogance.

John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Luke 3:7-9

Jesus gives a similar warning to those who were trying to trap him: Abraham is our father, they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did”. John 8:39 Jesus goes even further in Matthew 8 when he praises the faith of a Gentile Roman Centurion: I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:10

Jesus then goes on to make a prediction: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But those who were born to the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:11-12
Here Jesus is warning his Jewish hearers that unless they recognize him as their Messiah they will be excluded from the Kingdom. And they didn't, so they were. Matthew 21:43
The doctrine of a national Jewish redemption is just a construct, made up to support the rapture to heaven theory. It simply is not scriptural and those who are born to the Kingdom, along with all those who reject Jesus, will experience the fire of the Lord's wrath. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 6:4, Jeremiah 8:6-12

 

[jerry kelso]

Mat 1:1　 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.　


Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.　

.

baberean2,

1. 2 Samuel 7:12-16;
VERSE 12: AND WHEN THY DAYS BE FULFILLED AND THOU SHALT SLEEP WITH THY FATHERS, I WILL SET UP THY SEED AFTER THEE, WHICH SHALL PROCEED OUT OF
THY BOWELS AND I WILL ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM.
V13: He SHALL BUILD AN HOUSE FOR MY NAME AND I WILL STABLISH THRONE OF HIS KINGDOM FOR EVER.
14: I WILL BE HIS FATHER AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. IF HE COMMIT INIQUITY, I WILL CHASTEN HIM
WITH THE ROD OF MEN:
15: BUT MY MERCY SHALL NOT DEPART AWAY FROM HIM, AS I TOOK IT FROM SAUL, WHOM I PUT AWAY BEFORE THEE.
16: AND THINE HOUSE AND THY KINGDOM SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER BEFORE THEE: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER.
THIS IS DAVID'S PHYSICAL POSTERITY AND THIS IS NOT ABRAHAM'S COVENANT.

2. GENESIS 12:1-3:
VERSE 1: NOW THE LORD HAD SAID UNTO ABRAM, GET THEE OUT OF THY COUNTRY AND FROM THY KINDRED, AND FROM THY FATHER 'S HOUSE UNTO A LAND THAT I WILL SHEW THEE THEE:

VERSE 2: AND I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION , AND I WILL BLESS THEE AND MAKE THY NAME GREAT AND THOU SHALT BE A BLESSING:
VERSE 3: AND I WILL BLESS THEE AND CURSE HIM THAT CURSE THEE: AND IN THEE SHALL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED.
ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BEING BLESSED WAS FULFILLED IN CHRIST AND SHALL BE FULFILLED TEMPORARILY IN THE MILLENNIUM WHEN THE GENTILE NATIONS SHALL BE BLESSED THROUGH ISRAEL. DEUTERONOMY 28:8-14; ISAIAH 60: 3-5; 11,16.
After Abraham passed the test with Isaac the covenant was reaffirmed and confirmed Genesis 22:22:15-18.
Genesis 17:1-8 it was made an everlasting covenant with Abraham's physical posterity.
That promised land is found in Genesis 13:14-17; 15:1-18; 17:1-8.

3. Matthew 1:1 is Jesus lineage from Abraham and David. This was significant about these two covenants being fulfilled completely though they were not because of Israel's rejection Matthew 23:37-39.
The Kingdom of God given to the Gentiles was salvation under the NC and the propagating of that gospel of Salvation and not the law of Moses.

4. Read the whole book of Galatians and you'll find no scripture that says the church will inherit the borders of Israel in the millennium and it doesn't say anything about the Gentiles being the posterity of the Davidic house and throne. Put up or please shut up with scripture in Galatians. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Read the whole book of Galatians and you'll find no scripture that says the church will inherit the borders of Israel in the millennium

Abraham is not looking to worship in earthly Jerusalem, based on the passage below.


Heb 11:15　 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　


Based on the words of Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13, this rotten, sin-cursed word is going to be burned up when Christ returns in "flaming fire", as found in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.


When the woman at the well spoke of Jerusalem being the place of worship, Christ could have said... "You are correct. You will worship there in the future."

However, He did not.
He specifically said that worship would not be in earthly Jerusalem.

Joh 4:20　 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.　

Joh 4:21　 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.　

Joh 4:22　 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.　

Joh 4:23　 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.　


Joh 4:24　 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.　


How much clearer could it be?


.

 

[jerry kelso]

Abraham is not looking to worship in earthly Jerusalem, based on the passage below.


Heb 11:15　 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　


Based on the words of Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13, this rotten, sin-cursed word is going to be burned up when Christ returns in "flaming fire", as found in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.


When the woman at the well spoke of Jerusalem being the place of worship, Christ could have said... "You are correct. You will worship there in the future."

However, He did not.
He specifically said that worship would not be in earthly Jerusalem.

Joh 4:20　 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.　

Joh 4:21　 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.　

Joh 4:22　 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.　

Joh 4:23　 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.　


Joh 4:24　 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.　


How much clearer could it be?


.

baberean2,

1. How much clearer is it that you can't rebut the scriptures that I gave so you have to find another set to make some other point and claim that the scriptures I gave is wrong.
This is why you are not fair in exegesis, debate and rebuttal.

2. All the Old Testament saints are in Christ and are in Heaven just like the church and even the tribulation saints who are martyred or raptured before the Day of the Lord such as the 144,000.
We will all have a part in the earthly kingdom for the 1000 years in different positions.
Abraham will be in the KoH reign Matthew 8:11.
So the scriptures don't prove Israel's position in the KoH. The Church does have a heavenly calling that will include the rest of the universe Colossians 1:16.

3. 2 Peter 3:10; But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The Day of the Lord is when Christ comes back with his saints from Heaven to go to the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15.
Revelation 11:15 says the Kingdoms of the world have become Christ and this is on the Day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:31 the Jewish remnant is gathered.
This can't be annihilation for everyone would be killed and have no planet to be on.
The fervent heat doesn't annihilate but purifies.

4. Romans 8 talks about creation groaning and Joel talks about creation flourishing and Isaiah says wolf will lay down with the lamb etc.

5. Hebrews 12:24-29; the shaking of the earth and heaven.
Verse 26b; Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also Heaven.
V27; And this word, Yet once more, signifiers the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot shaken may remain.
V28; Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be removed, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and Godly fear:
V29; For our God is a consuming power.
Sin will be removed, the physical curse the animal curse etc. These things will be shaken so Peace will be on earth and perfect creation and animals laying beside each other when normally one would kill the other and on and on like God's word and Christian lives that will remain.

6. What does the woman at the well conversation have to with Israel's KoH reign gifts and callings and trying to include the Church in their gifts and callings.
You never showed your position about the Davidic Covenant or the Abrahamic covenant concerning the land in Galatians or Genesis or anywhere else.
You have nothing to say of substance and you don't understand proper debate and rebuttal. You keep getting more ridiculous other every post. Goodbye. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You fail to see how the Jewish people themselves voided the Covenant and how Jesus opened the Promises and Blessings of God to all who would receive Him.
God’s work with and the development of His people, faithful Israelites; in the Old Testament is continued in the New Testament. Those who presumed that ancestry gave them privileges were chastened. John the Baptist’s strong language indicates how seriously God viewed their pride and arrogance.

John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Luke 3:7-9

Jesus gives a similar warning to those who were trying to trap him: Abraham is our father, they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did”. John 8:39 Jesus goes even further in Matthew 8 when he praises the faith of a Gentile Roman Centurion: I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:10

Jesus then goes on to make a prediction: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But those who were born to the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:11-12
Here Jesus is warning his Jewish hearers that unless they recognize him as their Messiah they will be excluded from the Kingdom. And they didn't, so they were. Matthew 21:43
The doctrine of a national Jewish redemption is just a construct, made up to support the rapture to heaven theory. It simply is not scriptural and those who are born to the Kingdom, along with all those who reject Jesus, will experience the fire of the Lord's wrath. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 6:4, Jeremiah 8:6-12

Keras,

The covenant is unconditionally eternal that is conditioned by obedience which will happen with the generation of Jews that will obey and is in connection with the setting up of the KoH reign.
So they didn't void the covenant according to God. So you are wrong.

2. Israel was prophesied that they would reject Jesus and the KoH and the KoG message Matthew 23:37-39 shows the rejection in his ministry.

3. All the prophets talk about the desolations and yet how that Israel will still come into covenant and Paul said the same thing in Romans 11:25-29.

4. The brood of vipers were not he apostate leaders.

5. Matthew 8:8-11 there will be rebels being rid of is from the parable of the wedding feast.
Zechariah 13:8-9 Two third of rebels will be cut off. This doesn't prove that Israel will not come into covenant.
They were destroyed in 70 A.D. but became a nation in 1948.
It will get worse before it gets better in the tribulation.

Amos 2:4-5? Amos 9:8; Behold the days of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob.
Read the rest of the chapter; the rebels will be killed off but the tabernacle of David will be raised up.
Verse 15; And I will plant them upon their land and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them saith the Lord thy God.
You make no sense and you don't mind being wrong I guess. Jerry kelso

 

[keras]

You make no sense and you don't mind being wrong I guess. Jerry kelso

Where you don't make sense, is your placing the Jewish people, who represent just two tribes, into all of Israel. This idea is illogical and unscriptural.
The tribes were given blessings by Jacob and Moses. In no way have the Jews received those; quite specific Blessings and Promises, plus they are far from being as many as the sands of the sea. The Jews are not the host of nations; that was promised to come from Jacob. Genesis 35:11-12
Plainly, it is the Christian nations that are the fulfilment of that Promise. Plus it is them, that is: we Christians, who are the inheritors of the holy Land. Romans 2:29, Ephesians 3:6, Isaiah 56:1-8

I reiterate: Every tree that does not produce good fruit, will be cut down and burned on the fire.
Those who were born to the Kingdom will be thrown outside.....
Bring those who did not want Me for their King and slaughter them...

So the promises of God and His Covenants will be kept with ALL of Israel, Jew and Christian Israelites.
Realize this, Jerry; your way of interpreting scripture is seriously flawed and the doctrine of the Church going to heaven, while the Jews remain on earth during the GT, is a false teaching and contradicts the truth of what God actually does plan for His people.

While you remain stuck in the mud of the rapture, God will keep you there, Isaiah 29:9-12, because you won't open your mind to the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 Sad, really, because what is promised to the Lord's faithful Christians is an amazing future; of fulfilment and the wonderful time of living as God always wanted His people to be, its our destiny and our privilege!