It is permissive for Christians to eat meat today

BobRyan

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The evidence that Ryan is talking about. The studies that conclude meat causes disease are all epidemiological studies based on people eating the Standard American Diet of highly processed foods. None of them is a study of people eating an omnivore diet of clean, whole foods.

Meat Still Isn't Healthy, Study Confirms.


"The researchers found that those who ate just two servings of processed meats a week had a 7% higher risk of heart disease and stroke. Processed meats include deli meats, hot dogs, bratwurst, sausage and bacon."

"Folks who ate two or more servings of unprocessed red meat -- such as beef or pork -- had a 3% higher risk of heart disease and stroke."
 
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Lev 11 speaks about not eating diseased meat and rats and other things - I am pointing that out for reference and using it to disprove the notion that Christians must eat meat or suffer the accusation of being in violation of some NT text.

If your argument is that the Holy Spirit did not need to write Lev 11 - you should take a few minutes to read the chapter.

a) Nowhere does it say that Christians must eat meat. It's not a command but an option. Did you really mean to say that?

b) In case you're not aware, Leviticus (and the entire Old Testament) applies to the Old Covenant only. None of the OT laws such as those written in Leviticus are applicable to Christians, who live under a New Covenant.

BTW. if you follow any part of the OT law you must follow all of it. Let me know how your animal sacrifices are turning out, assuming that you haven't been arrested already.
Meat Still Isn't Healthy, Study Confirms.


"The researchers found that those who ate just two servings of processed meats a week had a 7% higher risk of heart disease and stroke. Processed meats include deli meats, hot dogs, bratwurst, sausage and bacon."

"Folks who ate two or more servings of unprocessed red meat -- such as beef or pork -- had a 3% higher risk of heart disease and stroke."

Your percentages don't say who the people are healthier than... 7% higher risk than whom? 3% higher than whom?

Also, why didn't you respond to the subjects that I addressed. Please explain your denial of this: if you follow any part of the OT law you must follow all of it. Let me know how your animal sacrifices are turning out, assuming that you haven't been arrested already.
 
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RDKirk

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Meat Still Isn't Healthy, Study Confirms.


"The researchers found that those who ate just two servings of processed meats a week had a 7% higher risk of heart disease and stroke. Processed meats include deli meats, hot dogs, bratwurst, sausage and bacon."

"Folks who ate two or more servings of unprocessed red meat -- such as beef or pork -- had a 3% higher risk of heart disease and stroke."

First, that study still did exactly what I said before: it did not follow people who ate an omnivore diet of clean, whole foods.

You can find the actual JAMA report referenced here.

These paragraphs are of note:

The median (interquartile range [IQR]) intake in servings per week was 1.5 (0.5-3.8) for processed meat, 3.0 (1.5-5.0) for unprocessed red meat, 2.0 (1.0-3.0) for poultry, and 1.6 (0.9-3.4) for fish. Compared with participants with lower total intake of these 4 food types, participants with higher total intake (1) were younger and more likely to be male, non-Hispanic black, and current smokers and to have diabetes, higher body mass index, higher non-high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, higher energy intake, and higher alcohol intake; (2) had lower high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, had lower diet quality, and were less likely to use lipid-lowering drugs and hormone therapy; and (3) had higher incidence of CVD and all-cause mortality. [In other words, these persons were also the most likely to be mortally unhealthy in many other ways.]
....

This study has several limitations. First, measurement error was unavoidable for self-reported diet and other data. Measurement error may result in an overestimation or underestimation of an association. Second, more detailed diet data were unavailable on food preparation methods (eg, fried vs nonfried). Third, only 1 dietary measurement was used, but participants’ dietary behaviors may have changed over time. Robust results were seen when follow-up was truncated at different times, except for the association of fish intake with all-cause mortality. Fourth, a comprehensive set of confounders was considered, but residual confounding was still likely. Fifth, the data pertained to only US adults; thus, caution should be taken when generalizing the findings to other countries and to children. Sixth, this study could not establish causality.
 
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BobRyan

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skipped to here

What major arguments have been made?

1. the Bible does not prohibit eating meat.
2. The Holy Spirit can say whatever He wants as long as it does not contradict Bible doctrine used to determine if it really is the Holy Spirit that is speaking.
3. The Bible does prohibit eating diseased meat and rats (and other things) in Lev 11
4. 1 Cor 8:13 I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to sin." there is such a thing as a Biblically allowed reason for no meat eating.
5. 1 Cor 6 - health is important - there is such a thing as "sin against one's own body"
6. Gen 1 states that mankind was not given meat to eat in Eden and in Gen 9 we find an indication that they were not eating meat even after the fall of Adam until the time of the flood.

There is a link between meat eating and certain kinds of cancers as well as a link between meat eating and heart disease.

There are plant based diet solutions currently used to reverse some forms of heart disease and diabetes
 
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BobRyan

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a) Nowhere does it say that Christians must eat meat.

Agreed - so in 1 Cor 10 when Paul comes up with a scenario where a Christian would not eat meat - he is not going against the Bible to say that scenarios can exist where that is the Christian response.

b) In case you're not aware, Leviticus (and the entire Old Testament) applies to the Old Covenant

Of course it does - and also to the New Covenant that Jeremiah specifies in Jer 31:31-34 where the moral Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on heart and mind under that New Covenant.. .so even for the saints no eating diseased meat or rats.
 
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BobRyan

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BTW. if you follow any part of the OT law you must follow all of it.

Law of Moses
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 (Matt 22)
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 (Matt 22, Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2)
"Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:11 (Matt 19, Mark 7:6-13, Eph 6:1-2, Rom 13)
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Do not murder" Ex 20 (Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2)

Please explain your denial of this: if you follow any part of the OT law you must follow all of it. Let me know how your animal sacrifices are turning out, assuming that you haven't been arrested already.

Heb 10:4-12 - animal sacrifices ended at the cross even though the "Commandments of God" remain
1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision does not matter - but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN Eph 6:1-2

Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 affirms that moral laws of God continue while ceremonial laws end at the cross

Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 affirms that moral laws of God continue while ceremonial laws end at the cross
 
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Agreed - so in 1 Cor 10 when Paul comes up with a scenario where a Christian would not eat meat - he is not going against the Bible to say that scenarios can exist where that is the Christian response.

Of course it does - and also to the New Covenant that Jeremiah specifies in Jer 31:31-34 where the moral Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on heart and mind under that New Covenant.. .so even for the saints no eating diseased meat or rats.

I agree with the first part.

I don't understand the second part, since the saints can eat anything we want. Matthew 15:10-11,17-18 " Then he called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What defiles a person is not what goes into the mouth; it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a person....Don’t you understand that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach and then passes out into the sewer? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a person."
 
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Law of Moses
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 (Matt 22)
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 (Matt 22, Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2)
"Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:11 (Matt 19, Mark 7:6-13, Eph 6:1-2, Rom 13)
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Do not murder" Ex 20 (Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2)



Heb 10:4-12 - animal sacrifices ended at the cross even though the "Commandments of God" remain
1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision does not matter - but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN Eph 6:1-2

Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 affirms that moral laws of God continue while ceremonial laws end at the cross

Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 affirms that moral laws of God continue while ceremonial laws end at the cross

You can spin it any way you want. Or what these Confessions say.

Here is what God's Word says...

You're either 1) under the law or 2) you're under God's grace -- there are not other choices. It a binary/either-or decision.

May I suggest that you read Galatians? Here are some excerpts...

2:16, "And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

2:19, "For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God."

2:21, "I do not set aside God’s grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"

3:10-11, "For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith."

And there are more...
 
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BobRyan

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I don't understand the second part, since the saints can eat anything we want. Matthew 15:10-11,17-18

The context of Matt 15:1-10 and Mark 7:6-`3 is not "freedom to eat diseased meat and rats" - in violation of scriptures forbidding it in Lev 11.

Rather it is about "eating bread".

The dispute was over the man-made-tradition of baptizing fingers, cups and pots when returning from the market place where "sin" might be on those items due to contact with gentiles (sinners from among the gentiles). The argument was that the Jew would then become a sinner if that sin got on their food and they ate it.

Christ points out that sin-getting-stuck-to-food and then eating that bread is NOT how sin gets into a person. Thus declaring that all the foods one purchased in the market place - had no magical property of sin on them that could then make the person a sinner.

IF as you proposed - Christ was on a "Eat rats and diseased meat no matter what scripture says against it in Lev 11" - a very huge uproar would have been expected among the Jews AND His own disciples given what we see in Acts 21.

Notice that in Acts 10 Peter is not claiming that as of Mark 7 - he has been eating rats and diseased meat.
 
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BobRyan

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BTW. if you follow any part of the OT law you must follow all of it.

Law of Moses
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 (Matt 22)
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 (Matt 22, Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2)
"Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:11 (Matt 19, Mark 7:6-13, Eph 6:1-2, Rom 13)
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Do not murder" Ex 20 (Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2)


You can spin it any way you want.

A great many Bible students (including Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations) will freely admit that those OT commands - are where I stated AND they are ALSO in the NT as I stated above.

You are free to object to this basic Bible fact as you wish.

No NT or OT text says that if you refuse to take God's name in vain then you must always engage in animal sacrifices no matter what Heb 10:4-12 says to the contrary.

You can try and spin it that way as you wish - - but that is not a very compelling argument as it stands today.
 
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The context of Matt 15:1-10 and Mark 7:6-`3 is not "freedom to eat diseased meat and rats" - in violation of scriptures forbidding it in Lev 11.

Rather it is about "eating bread".

The dispute was over the man-made-tradition of baptizing fingers, cups and pots when returning from the market place where "sin" might be on those items due to contact with gentiles (sinners from among the gentiles). The argument was that the Jew would then become a sinner if that sin got on their food and they ate it.

Christ points out that sin-getting-stuck-to-food and then eating that bread is NOT how sin gets into a person. Thus declaring that all the foods one purchased in the market place - had no magical property of sin on them that could then make the person a sinner.

IF as you proposed - Christ was on a "Eat rats and diseased meat no matter what scripture says against it in Lev 11" - a very huge uproar would have been expected among the Jews AND His own disciples given what we see in Acts 21.

Notice that in Acts 10 Peter is not claiming that as of Mark 7 - he has been eating rats and diseased meat.

I'm not sure why you're hung up on rats and diseased meat. Believers can eat whatever they want, making sure that others aren't offended by what they eat.

Until the Holy Spirit guides me away from a complete diet I will continue to eat whatever I want. But probably not rats and diseased meat. ;^)
 
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BobRyan

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Here is what God's Word says...

You're either 1) under the law or 2) you're under God's grace -- .

Here is what God's Word says -
Rom 3:"31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

1 Cor 7:19 -- circumcision does not matter "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" where "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - and "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- so "these things I write that you sin NOT" 1 John 2:2
 
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BobRyan

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I'm not sure why you're hung up on rats and diseased meat.

Because you have not yet read Lev 11 where that is mentioned as something God does not approve of?

I will continue to eat whatever I want.

you have free will - you may choose as you wish, as is the case with all mankind.
 
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Here is what God's Word says -
Rom 3:"31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

1 Cor 7:19 -- circumcision does not matter "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" where "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - and "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- so "these things I write that you sin NOT" 1 John 2:2

Read Galatians, then respond again.

Here's a brief excerpt: Galatians 3:1-3, " You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?"
 
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BobRyan

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Read Galatians, then respond again.

I am pretty good with Galatians. It does not change the fact that God mentions diseased meat and rats in Lev 11 as not being something good for food for humans.

1. Christ did not die on the cross so humans can eat diseased meat.

2. One can ignore the scriptures in the following post (as you just did) -- but that does not delete them. We can all see the point that a lost person does not become saved and gain heaven simply by "not taking God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- and yet "taking God's name in vain" is not the path to heaven either according to 1 Cor 7:19 and 1 John 5:2-3

Here is what God's Word says -
Rom 3:"31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

1 Cor 7:19 -- circumcision does not matter "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" where "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - and "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- so "these things I write that you sin NOT" 1 John 2:2
 
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BobRyan

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My simple answer: Jesus ate meat and drank wine, so I think it is safe to assume we as New Covenant believers are allowed to do that as well.

True-- and the word translated in English as "wine" is more accurately the english phrase "grape beverage" where the attribute of it being fermented or not depends on context.
 
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I am pretty good with Galatians. It does not change the fact that God mentions diseased meat and rats in Lev 11 as not being something good for food for humans.

1. Christ did not die on the cross so humans can eat diseased meat.

2. One can ignore the scriptures in the following post (as you just did) -- but that does not delete them. We can all see the point that a lost person does not become saved and gain heaven simply by "not taking God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- and yet "taking God's name in vain" is not the path to heaven either according to 1 Cor 7:19 and 1 John 5:2-3

Why are you so fixated on diseased meat and rats? You're either pulling a prank or you can't see anything else in Scripture about food. All food is permissible!

I'm done with this irrelevant discussion.
 
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