Rom 14 the "weak" gentiles eat vegetables only to avoid meat offered to idols

[BobRyan]

Rom 14
Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

==== notice how the details get spelled out in 1 Cor 8
1 Cor 8
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

--> Indeed the Jews were raised from childhood knowing there is only one God.

7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

--> Gentiles raised as pagans and part of their worship was to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Now then having become Christian they are seeking to avoid pagan practices.

--> But the Jews had liberty because they knew all along - the idols are nothing but stone.

8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.

 

[Christ is Lord]

--> Gentiles raised as pagans and part of their worship was to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Now then having become Christian they are seeking to avoid pagan practices.

--> But the Jews had liberty because they knew all along - the idols are nothing but stone.

Hi Bob,

I think this isn't correct reasoning. Jews may have known the idols are nothing but stone however, I am pretty sure Jews don't eat meat that was sacrificed to idols. Look at Daniel and his friends we don't know the type of meat that was offered but we know they chose to abstain for obvious reasons.

 

[SkyWriting]

The best way to control weight and be healthy is to remain completely vegan, until lunch.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

I think this isn't correct reasoning. Jews may have known the idols are nothing but stone however, I am pretty sure Jews don't eat meat that was sacrificed to idols. .

When Paul contrasts Jews to pagans in 1 Cor 8 as quoted in the OP do you see him making the case that the "we who know there is only one God" were the guys afraid to eat meat because of the idols.. guys who were "accustomed to the idol until now"??

In scripture we only have this "one way" and that is with Jews "Required to eat meat" at the very least - at Passover. And with "only Jews" having the knowledge that as 1 Cor 8 says "there are no gods other than the One true God". And the only "eat vegetables due to fear" statement we have in the NT to help explain the details for Rom 14 is in 1 Cor 8.

Everything else would need to be imagined.

 

[Halbhh]

When Paul compares Jews to pagans in 1 Cor 8 as quoted in the OP do you see him making the case that the "we who know there is only one God" were the guys afraid to eat meat because of the idols.. guys who were "accustomed to the idol until now"??

In scripture we only have this "one way" and that is with Jews "Required to eat meat" at the very least - at Passover. And with "only Jews" having the knowledge that as 1 Cor 8 says "there are no gods other than the One true God". And the only "eat vegetables due to fear" statement we have in the NT to help explain the details for Rom 14 is in 1 Cor 8.

Everything else would need to be imagined.

That's an instance. Another instance Paul gives right here in Rom 14 is about which day to keep the sabbath (or day of worship; verse 5). Both of these are only examples (but important ones in that time and place) of the general rule: do not allow your freedom to become something that destroys another Christian who is weak. Instead, sacrifice on that matter, for their sake, for their eternal outcome, that their soul not be lost. It's not about a particular instance, but about any and every instance.

For example, imagine a muslim converts and comes to your church, and they are weak, and feel women's hair absolutely should be covered. If you invite them to your home (as a Christian practicing "love one another" and "welcome the stranger"), then if a woman you should wear a hair scarf, because you don't want to accidentally trip them into sin via their weakness (1 Cor 8, verses 10-11).

 

[Christ is Lord]

When Paul compares Jews to pagans in 1 Cor 8 as quoted in the OP do you see him making the case that the "we who know there is only one God" were the guys afraid to eat meat because of the idols.. guys who were "accustomed to the idol until now"??

In scripture we only have this "one way" and that is with Jews "Required to eat meat" at the very least - at Passover. And with "only Jews" having the knowledge that as 1 Cor 8 says "there are no gods other than the One true God". And the only "eat vegetables due to fear" statement we have in the NT to help explain the details for Rom 14 is in 1 Cor 8.

Everything else would need to be imagined.

Again, you’re assuming the issue and people addressed in Corinthians are the same group in Romans. Paul never mentions idols in Romans 14, and he also made a reference to holy days, that’s a Jewish thing.

 

[fwGod]

Hmm. Whenever I've read those verses I saw nothing that compared Jews to pagans.

How would the Jews on this forum, on the section for Jews.. read this?

 

[BobRyan]

That's an instance. Another instance Paul gives right here in Rom 14 is about which day to keep the sabbath (or day of worship; verse 5).

Romans 14 never mentions the word Sabbath.

It says "one man observes one day above another and another man observes every day" .. which is interesting because Paul does not even allow one observance of a pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Therefore the list of days in Rom 14 that are being defended had to be from within the Bible-approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, you’re assuming the issue and people addressed in Corinthians are the same group in Romans. Paul never mentions idols in Romans 14,

In Romans 14 Paul gives no explanation as to where the "vegetarian" issue even comes up.. certainly Jews were required to eat meat at Passover... that would be a "given" for understanding the chapter.

But we do have that same topic come up in 1 Cor 8 and the same descriptive terms are used - only with more detail given. How nice then that the Bible explains the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Hmm. Whenever I've read those verses I saw nothing that compared Jews to pagans.

How would the Jews on this forum, on the section for Jews.. read this?

the OP contrasted the Jews with pagans as does 1 Cor 8.

How would the Jews on this forum, on the section for Jews.. read this?

good question

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 14, and he also made a reference to holy days, that’s a Jewish thing.

But he did not say that those who were observing those Lev 23 holy days were also "vegetarian".

The only link we have in Rom 14 with "vegetarian" is that Paul mentions the two ideas this way

meat eater -vs- vegetarian Rom 14:2
Observing one day above another - vs - observing every day Rom 14:5

The meat eater is first,, the observing one day above another is first.

The vegetarian is second.. the observing every day is second.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Jews were required to eat meat at Passover... that would be a "given" for understanding the chapter.

Are Jewish-Christians still observing Passover in the same manner in the OT and those that aren’t Christians (i.e eating the meat of the lamb)?

 

[fwGod]

the OP contrasted the Jews with pagans as does 1 Cor 8.

prior to the above

When Paul compares Jews to pagans in 1 Cor 8 as quoted in the OP

The words "contrast" and "compare" in both statements about the same thing bring to mind two different conclusions.

I'm curious of which is the intended one?

 

[BobRyan]

prior to the above


The words "contrast" and "compare" in both statements about the same thing bring to mind two different conclusions.

I'm curious of which is the intended one?

Two different meanings for "compares" so am now using "contrast" to avoid ambiguity

 

[BobRyan]

Are Jewish-Christians still observing Passover in the same manner in the OT and those that aren’t Christians (i.e eating the meat of the lamb)?

Jewish Christians still do eat meat at the Seder cervices as they point to Christ as the "Lamb of God that take away the sin of the world" - the whole point is to take the actual symbols the bible specifies and show how it points to Christ.

Christ and the disciples are likewise doing that at the last supper.

Passover was just a visual aid for faith in Christ (the Messiah) as the Lamb of God trusting in Him to take away the sin of the world

 

[BobRyan]

For example, imagine a muslim converts and comes to your church, and they are weak, and feel women's hair absolutely should be covered. If you invite them to your home (as a Christian practicing "love one another" and "welcome the stranger"), then if a woman you should wear a hair scarf, because you don't want to accidentally trip them into sin via their weakness (1 Cor 8, verses 10-11).

Which is why Paul says in 1 Cor 8 of those weak pagans-now-Christian coming into the church "I would never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble". The Jews had the strength of good doctrine about the one-true-God to know that the idols were mere stone... the pagans-turned-Christian gentiles were still trying to adjust to that idea.

 

[fwGod]

Two different meanings for "compares" so am now using "contrast" to avoid ambiguity

It also avoids double-mindedness for everyone who reads both post examples

 

[Christ is Lord]

Christ and the disciples are likewise doing that at the last supper.

Of course they celebrated the Passover. What I’m asking is how do you know that Jewish-Christians in Rome still celebrated the Passover.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course they celebrated the Passover. What I’m asking is how do you know that Jewish-Christians in Rome still celebrated the Passover.

Well the Messianic Jews still do it today, Paul was still doing it in the book of Acts.. the Christian Jews of Acts 21 require that Paul go to the temple and take a vow to prove to his fellow Christian Jews that "that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law" and refute the false accusation that "you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses "

Passover is considered the first day of unleavened bread

Acts 20
5 But these had gone on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas. 6 We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days.

Acts 21
“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

If the argument is that "Jews in Rome were known for forsaking Moses" then that has yet to be proven.

If the argument is that the Jewish Apostles were known for rejecting their identity as Jews, then we need to contrast that suggestion with the fact that in the NT not only are Jewish Christians identifying as "those who follow Mose"s but right down to Paul still saying of himself "I AM a Pharisee" when put on trial Acts 23:6

And what is the response from Paul's fellow pharisees - even though they are non-Christian pharisees?

9 And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, “We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”

 

[Halbhh]

Romans 14 never mentions the word Sabbath.

It says "one man observes one day above another and another man observes every day" .. which is interesting because Paul does not even allow one observance of a pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Therefore the list of days in Rom 14 that are being defended had to be from within the Bible-approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Yes, which would include all sorts of special days, sabbaths included too of course. Sabbaths come to mind easily from "one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike." in that of course that familiar old saw for us Americans we've heard dozens of times each likely: 'every day is Sunday' (e.g. like a sabbath, etc.) vs. the other attitude that Sunday is special (which many of us have experienced knowing people first hand, such as grandparents, for which the day is extremely special, and not at all an 'everyday is Sunday' day...; you'd get that if you were made to dress up in a suit for instance 'because it's Sunday'). I remember once my grandmother was scandalized (my fault!) because once I did not have a suit on (though I know a suit would not make me righteous).

This question isn't particular to even any one century I'd expect, but I'd expect it in any century. We shouldn't get caught up in thinking it's about a specific day, feast day, first day, so much as just the general idea: for one person something means some special thing it does not to others of us -- that's the key thing. It could be anything. Not only diet, not only special days. Special days are only an instance.