Rom 14 the "weak" gentiles eat vegetables only to avoid meat offered to idols

[BobRyan]

Yes, which would include all sorts of special days, sabbaths included too of course. Sabbaths come to mind easily from "one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike." in that of course that familiar old saw for us Americans we've heard dozens of times each likely: 'every day is Sunday' (e.g. like a sabbath, etc.) vs. the other attitude that Sunday is special (which many of us have experienced knowing people first hand, such as grandparents, for which the day is extremely special, and not at all an 'everyday is Sunday' day...; you'd get that if you were made to dress up in a suit for instance 'because it's Sunday'). I remember once my grandmother was scandalized (my fault!) because once I did not have a suit on (though I know a suit would not make me righteous).

This question isn't particular to even any one century I'd expect, but I'd expect it in any century. We shouldn't get caught up in thinking it's about a specific day, feast day, first day, so much as just the general idea: for one person something means some special thing it does not to others of us -- that's the key thing. It could be anything. Not only diet, not only special days. Special days are only an instance.

But at the same time notice in Gal 4 - Paul flat out condemns the observance of pagan days. So that is one thing he is not leaving up to the individual. Rather he argues they are abandoning Christianity itself.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

 

[Halbhh]

But at the same time notice in Gal 4 - Paul flat out condemns the observance of pagan days. So that is one thing he is not leaving up to the individual. Rather he argues they are abandoning Christianity itself.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Right. Today that could be something like getting caught up in astrology or palm readers or taking tarot cards seriously (to a level of mystic faith in them) or such. Of course these are easy examples. It gets more serious for those in churches when for instance some in the church want to parade the flag up the isle, making it symbolically equal to the cross for instance. Then is a time for knowing scriptures that will help, such as these you just quoted helpfully here.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jewish Christians still do eat meat at the Seder cervices as they point to Christ as the "Lamb of God that take away the sin of the world" - the whole point is to take the actual symbols the bible specifies and show how it points to Christ.

Christ and the disciples are likewise doing that at the last supper.

Eating what at the seder, lamb? No. Also, there is no mention of them eating lamb at the last supper.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Romans 14 never mentions the word Sabbath.

It says "one man observes one day above another and another man observes every day" .. which is interesting because Paul does not even allow one observance of a pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Therefore the list of days in Rom 14 that are being defended had to be from within the Bible-approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

I have already told you those verses were regarding fasting. As we know, eating vegetables or a basic diet that did not include any meat, wine or anything pleasant was constituted by Daniel when he fasted (Daniel 10:2-3 & Daniel 1:12-16). It is a known fact that fasting was practiced heavily in the 1st century (Matthew 6:16, Matthew 9:14-15, Mark 2:18-20, Luke 5:33-35). And historical documents reveal that Monday and Thursday were considered fast days in the second temple period (Ta’an 2:4). The pharisee who prayed in Luke 18:12 about fasting twice a week, would have been keeping these fast days.

 

[BobRyan]

I have already told you those verses were regarding fasting.

Telling me what you guess about it - vs showing me that the context of Gal 4 is warning pagan gentiles - against the idea of "returning again" to ... Judaism??? is "problematic" since they were never jews to begin with.

Pagan gentiles turned-Christian used to be... "pagan".

You point out that there is "such a thing" as fasting among the Jews "as if" that unrelated detail makes these gentile Christians "former Jews" rather than "former pagan".

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.

 

[BobRyan]

Eating what at the seder, lamb? No. .

Well Jews did that in real life and still do to this day. Even the christian Jews do it.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well Jews still do to this day. Even the christian Jews do it.

No, actually they do not today. Have you ever been to an actual seder? Eating a whole roasted lamb on Pesakh is forbidden in the Shulhan Arukh. Only the Samaritans in Israel roast a lamb at Pesakh.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Telling me what you guess about it - vs showing me that the context of Gal 4 is warning pagan gentiles - against the idea of "returning again" to ... Judaism??? is "problematic" since they were never jews to begin with.

Pagan gentiles turned-Christian used to be... "pagan".

You point out that there is "such a thing" as fasting among the Jews "as if" that unrelated detail makes these gentile Christians "former Jews" rather than "former pagan".

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.

When did I ever say Galatians 4?

 

[BobRyan]

No, actually they do not today. Have you ever been to an actual seder? Eating a whole roasted lamb on Pesakh is forbidden in the Shulhan Arukh. Only the Samaritans in Israel roast a lamb at Pesakh.

I have been to an actual seder service and we ate lamb ... but not the entire lamb -- your suggestion that at the time of Paul in Romans 14 the Jews refused to eat lamb on Passover is "over the top"

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 14 never mentions the word Sabbath.
It says "one man observes one day above another and another man observes every day" .. which is interesting because Paul does not even allow one observance of a pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Therefore the list of days in Rom 14 that are being defended had to be from within the Bible-approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Yes, which would include all sorts of special days, sabbaths included too of course. Sabbaths come to mind easily from "one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike."

"One observes one day above another while another man observes every day" Rom 14 cannot be applied to even one of the pagan days mentioned in Gal 4.

I have already told you those verses were regarding fasting.

Telling me what you guess about it - vs showing me that the context of Gal 4 is warning pagan gentiles - against the idea of "returning again" to ... Judaism??? is "problematic" since they were never jews to begin with.

Pagan gentiles turned-Christian used to be... "pagan".

You point out that there is "such a thing" as fasting among the Jews "as if" that unrelated detail makes these gentile Christians "former Jews" rather than "former pagan".

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.

When did I ever say Galatians 4?

Are we reading the same sequence of posts??

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have been to an actual seder service and we ate lamb ... but not the entire lamb -- your suggestion that at the time of Paul in Romans 14 the Jews refused to eat lamb on Passover is "over the top"

Not sure what kind of seder it was then...SDA? See you are making things up again. I NEVER said that Jews during 1st Temple times did not eat Pesakh lamb.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"One observes one day above another while another man observes every day" Rom 14 cannot be applied to even one of the pagan days mentioned in Gal 4.

Are we reading the same sequence of posts??

maybe not. I was only replying to your posts

 

[BobRyan]

Not sure what kind of seder it was then...SDA?

No ... Messianic Jew

And we know they were still doing it at the time of Christ - hence the point about Romans 14 being a reference to the same gentile-eating-vegetables-only scenario that we also see in 1 Cor 8.

Neither NT or OT describe the condition of "Jews weak in the faith not eating lamb"

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No ... Messianic Jew

And we know they were still doing it at the time of Christ - hence the point about Romans 14 being a reference to the same gentile-eating-vegetables-only scenario that we also see in 1 Cor 8.

Neither NT or OT describe the condition of "Jews weak in the faith not eating lamb"

Then they do not follow the Shulhan Arukh. At many times "Messianic Jews" are really just protestants, some do not believe in the Trinity, some think Paul was an apostate, etc. Many times, there is no doctrinal consistency in Messianic Judaism. A traditional present day Jewish seder plate only has a lamb's shank bone. There is NO lamb. Again, Romans is regarding fasting...has nothing to do with eating lamb at Pesakh. 1 Cor 8 is regarding eating meat that was sacrificed to pagan idols.

 

[BobRyan]

And we know they were still doing it at the time of Christ - hence the point about Romans 14 being a reference to the same gentile-eating-vegetables-only scenario that we also see in 1 Cor 8.

Then they do not follow the Shulhan Arukh.

Be that as it may it is clear what they were doing in the NT, i.e. passover lamb at Passover.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And we know they were still doing it at the time of Christ - hence the point about Romans 14 being a reference to the same gentile-eating-vegetables-only scenario that we also see in 1 Cor 8.

Be that as it may it is clear what they were doing in the NT, i.e. passover lamb at Passover.

Yes...WHILE THE TEMPLE STILL STOOD. Romans 14 is about fasting.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 14 is about fasting.

Romans 14 says it is about eating meat vs eating vegetables only.

Gentiles had the "eating vegetables only" problem fully detailed in 1 Cor 8... and referenced again in Romans 14 - where we are told that the weak "ate vegetables only" as in 1 Cor 8,

It would be nice if you had some actual NT text saying "it is now after the temple was destroyed and so Jews are fasting by eating vegetables only". Maybe an entire chapter on that idea the way we have it today in 1 Cor 8 for gentiles weak in the faith eating vegetables only.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Romans 14 says it is about eating meat vs eating vegetables only.

Gentiles had the "eating vegetables only" problem fully detailed in 1 Cor 8... and referenced again in Romans 14 - where we are told that the weak "ate vegetables only" as in 1 Cor 8,

It would be nice if you had some actual NT text saying "it is now after the temple was destroyed and so Jews are fasting by eating vegetables only". Maybe an entire chapter on that idea the way we have it today in 1 Cor 8 for gentiles weak in the faith eating vegetables only.

You are trying to force Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8 together. I said 2 different things. I said Jews fasted 2 times per week. I also said the Pesakh lamb was sacrificed until the temple was destroyed. They are 2 DIFFERENT things. Look up Romans 14 and you will find many commentaries on it regarding fasting. However, you are free to believe whatever you want...
Shalom

 

[BobRyan]

You are trying to force Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8 together.

Quite the opposite -- I am showing that they are both using the same language and speaking to the same topic. I show that exegesis requires this obvious unity between what Paul writes to the Romans and what he writes to the church at Corinth.

In fact there is no statement at all from Paul that gentiles "used to be Jews" or that the "Bible is evil", or that "scripture is evil"

Paul himself went wayyy out of his way to keep Passover in Acts 20 and to demonstrate in Acts 21 that he was keeping the Law of Moses.

Acts 20
5 But these had gone on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas. 6 We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

They don't say "you see brother how many gentiles used to be jews but are now Christian and trying to turn back to judaism" -- how is this point at all complicated??

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Quite the opposite -- I am showing that they are both using the same language and speaking to the same topic. I show that exegesis requires this obvious unity between what Paul writes to the Romans and what he writes to the church at Corinth.

In fact there is no statement at all from Paul that gentiles "used to be Jews" or that the "Bible is evil", or that "scripture is evil"

Paul himself went wayyy out of his way to keep Passover in Acts 20 and to demonstrate in Acts 21 that he was keeping the Law of Moses.

Acts 20
5 But these had gone on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas. 6 We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

They don't say "you see brother how many gentiles used to be jews but are now Christian and trying to turn back to judaism" -- how is this point at all complicated??

LOL you are arguing with yourself again. I never said any of that...again with Passover...what does that have aything to do with any of this? Why do you keep bringing this up? Again, you can believe whatever you want to...