Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

[Alithis]

An assertion without evidence is an argument from silence.

Words have meanings.




No. Obedience follows after salvation. Obedience does not save anyone. The dead have no ability to be obedient.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



You seem to be unable or unwilling to understand my point, so I don't see any reason to continue this.

well you best get your permanent ink pen out and blot out the words warning about those who " do not OBEY the GOSPEL then ...
and don't worry ..the spiritually dead cannot do anything spiritual until made alive by the holy Spirit -but the physically alive can hear the gospel and respond obediently to the instruction of it .

 

[Alithis]

Nope , not at all.
No where in that verse does it state you must be baptized to receive salvation.
And it isn't a matter of my "idea" , baptism in water by full immersion comes AFTER receiving salvation.
Self-righteousness doesn't jive with God friend.

no it is part and parcel of the process of salvation

 

[Wordkeeper]

no it is part and parcel of the process of salvation

Salvation is understood by Israel to mean receiving the promise to be a blessing to the world given to Abraham.

This salvation/ justification could not be received in the Sinaitic Covenant, so baptism into Christ enters a believer into the contract of the Christic Covenant, which can deliver that result.

John 5:39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

 

[Alithis]

Salvation is understood by Israel to mean receiving the promise to be a blessing to the world given to Abraham.

This salvation/ justification could not be received in the Sinaitic Covenant, so baptism into Christ enters a believer into the contract of the Christic Covenant, which can deliver that result.

John 5:39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

yes an as with all covenants they require active participation from TWO parties for the terms to be met

 

[Natsumi Lam]

No if you don't believe in the Messiah.

Arent we talking about Christians?

 

[Not David]

Arent we talking about Christians?

Where the ones who received the baptism of John Christians?

 

[sdowney717]

yes an as with all covenants they require active participation from TWO parties for the terms to be met

Actually no your wrong. The covenant God established with Abraham. God puts Abraham to sleep. Then God alone walks between the carcasses signifying God is in control of the working establishment of the covenant, and Abraham's participation is not required, wanted or desired. That same covenant is in effect for born of God believers, there is no works of man involved to be saved. We do not play a part in our salvation, we are born of God before our faith. And we are taught by the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ. It is true that it is our belief, but faith is God's gift to those He has called to be of His sheep. Abraham believed God, Abraham is the father of us all. Since it is by faith according to grace that the promise is made sure to al the seed, Romans 4

16 For this cause [it is] of faith, that [it may be] according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

Genesis 15
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

 

[Tutorman]

Not always.
I was saved when I was 16; I was baptised only in my early 20's - and some were against that because I'd been baptised as a baby. If I'd died before I could have been baptised, I'd still have been saved, been a Christian and belonged to God.

The second time you just got wet, there is only one baptism. So if you died after you got baptized you would be fine. The ordinarily means of Salvation is repent and baptism if possible any other way is man made

 

[ItIsFinished!]

It sure does, but I understand I use to be stuck in the silly notions and ideas of Sola Scriptura at one time myself too but than I was able to overcome such things and realize that most evangelical ideas are very wrong but God can use even them.

No it doesn't. No where in that verse did it say you must be baptized to be saved.
If baptism is a requirement for salvation then it would be attached to every gospel verse .
There is an obvious reason why it isn't.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

no it is part and parcel of the process of salvation

No it absolutely is not part and parcel.
Christ being nailed to the cross, shedding His blood, dying, being placed in a borrowed tomb, and raising the third day according to the Scriptures is salvation for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ .
He is our propitiation, not He and baptism.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Where the ones who received the baptism of John Christians?

My example of John's was an example of water baptism before the Holy Spirit infilling aka baptism of the Holy Spirit. Can you receive the Holy Spirit infilling aka baptism of the Holy Spirit without being saved (with the exception of the HS being imparted to some few OT folks)? Thus, I am talking about John's baptism from the standpoint of Christian. Wasn't Jesus baptized by John too?

I provided other examples of water baptism before and after the infilling of the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was not my only example.

On that note, hasnt this thread been talking about Christians this entire time; therefore, i have only been referring to Christians.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Where the ones who received the baptism of John Christians?

No. They were Sinaitic Jews.

There is an aspect of covenant s which describes the requirement of the believer.

The Sinaitic Covenant is a covenant of works, indicting the requirement of the believer was to labour, in the sense of a strict job description, with compensation in the form of wages. This meant for example a tiller would have to till, a sower would have to sow, etc. The wage would be a wage distinctive from the produce. He would receive X talents, but no wheat, for example.

The Christic Covenant is a covenant of faith, indicating the requirement of the believer was to be loyal, in the sense of belonging to a proprietary class, with a shareholder or partner status, and benefits in the form of having a share of the harvest. There was no Jew or Gentile, male or female, master or slave when allocating that share. Of course anyone could be asked to do any task, sowing, watering, pruning, nurturing, planning, stewarding, managing, etc.

We see this pattern in families. The work is shared equally and when enough hands were available, some members could actually not have to work. Of course when the time came to enjoy the fruits of the harvest, all had equal access to the produce.

John's baptism was a corrective baptism.

Those who were supposed to meet the requirements of the Sinaitic Covenant were misinterpreting the job description. Instead of performing both the minor as well as the more important requirements of the covenant, justice, mercy and faithfulness, they were only observing the first, mainly circumcision and dietary laws. They were looking at a technicality to avoid full compliance, the fact that Abraham had been promised that his descendant would be a blessing to the world. However, they forgot that that was a completely different transaction. The benefit of that promise was to go to a descendant, not many descendants. The benefit was an inheritance, received by a relative, not a wage, received by an employee.

Was a member of the Sinaitic Covenant a relative? The text says Moses was a servant in God's household, whilst Christ was a Son.

Was a member of the Sinaitic Covenant promised an inheritance, a benefit received not by work, but by relationship? No, it was clearly mentioned that the benefit was wages, in return for obedience.

In other words, employees were trying to get family benefits, inheritance without work, using works of the law, circumcision, to claim they were heirs.

There was a way to do that, alright, but In order to get family benefits they would have to become family, and that was in turn by being loyal to Christ in the Christic Covenant, when it was made available. Instead they stumbled, by seeking an entitlement of their own, seeking righteousness in works, when none was available in the Sinaitic Covenant, rather than seeking a righteousness of God, through wrong interpretation of family qualifications, instead of qualifying as family and claiming the inheritance, the righteousness of God, needed to become blessings to the world, when it finally was made available in the Christic Covenant.

So John the Baptist taught the need for compliance to the Sinaitic Covenant as well as the need to be loyal to Christ when the Christic Covenant was made available.

 

[exitstageright]

There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread and I figured I'd make a topic about it. It's my impression that no, we are not saved by baptism and the verses that seem to imply that Baptism is a requirement for salvation need to be looked at closer. Like for example in John 3:5. Jesus says:

“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

So just what is "being born of water?" To answer that we have to look at what Nicodemus says in John 3:4 "How can someone be born when they are old? Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!". also look at Jesus's reply in John 3:6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.". Jesus was talking about our physical and spiritual births. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born into the world and then are born again spiritually. That's what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 not that we have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.

Second, we have to look at Mark 16:16 it says

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned. To say that this verse is proof that baptism is required for salvation is to add words that are not present in the holy text. If Baptism were a requirement for salvation Mark would have said "But those who do not believe or who believe but are not baptized will be condemned". All the first part of the verse is saying is that those who happen to be baptized will be saved. Also see: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. Got questions explains it a lot better than I ever could.


These are just two of the most popular verses in the Bible that people try to use to "prove" that baptism is a requirement for salvation. But, there isn't a single verse in the Bible that "proves" that baptism is a requirement for salvation because, it isn't.

There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross. If baptism were required for salvation why would Jesus say "today you will be with me in paradise!"

So, what's the point in getting baptized then if it doesn't save us? Because, Baptism is a part of faith. Simple as that.

As far as being born of water is concerned,this is referring to the physical body,which comes from the natural birth. The Earth is made up of 75% water. The cells of our bodies are made up of about 70% water.

"Water is of major importance to all living things; in some organisms, up to 90% of their body weight comes from water. Up to 60% of the human adult body is water. According to H.H. Mitchell, Journal of Biological Chemistry 158, the brain and heart are composed of 73% water."

 

[Not David]

As far as being born of water is concerned,this is referring to the physical body,which comes from the natural birth. The Earth is made up of 75% water. The cells of our bodies are made up of about 70% water.

"Water is of major importance to all living things; in some organisms, up to 90% of their body weight comes from water. Up to 60% of the human adult body is water. According to H.H. Mitchell, Journal of Biological Chemistry 158, the brain and heart are composed of 73% water."

Sorry, but it sounds silly to say one needs to be baptized of water to refer to natural birth. Does that mean that non-born will go to hell since they weren't "born of water"?

 

[Strong in Him]

The second time you just got wet,

No, I didn't "just get wet" the second time. I gave a Christian testimony, declared Jesus as Lord and was baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The first time, which I don't remember, my parents and Godparents (who may not even have been Christians) made some promises on my behalf.

So if you died after you got baptized you would be fine.

You mean, as a baby?
Baptism isn't a superstition; something that is done to give the baby spiritual life insurance and "guarantee" that God will save them and let them get to heaven.

The ordinarily means of Salvation is repent and baptism if possible any other way is man made

Which is not what happened to me as a baby; I didn't repent of anything.

I do now actually accept child baptism, and if I hadn't been baptised as an adult and had friends who were urging me to do so; I might not.
But one of the reasons for being baptised again was to confess the faith for myself, and follow the way of the NT. If either of my baptisms were "invalid", it was probably the first.

 

[Not David]

My example of John's was an example of water baptism before the Holy Spirit infilling aka baptism of the Holy Spirit. Can you receive the Holy Spirit infilling aka baptism of the Holy Spirit without being saved (with the exception of the HS being imparted to some few OT folks)? Thus, I am talking about John's baptism from the standpoint of Christian. Wasn't Jesus baptized by John too?

I provided other examples of water baptism before and after the infilling of the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was not my only example.

On that note, hasnt this thread been talking about Christians this entire time; therefore, i have only been referring to Christians.

Because Christian baptism is not the same as John's baptism. And the examples you provided are your own interpretations that none of the Traditional Christians, nor History shows as accurate.

 

[Not David]

No, I didn't "just get wet" the second time. I gave a Christian testimony, declared Jesus as Lord and was baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The first time, which I don't remember, my parents and Godparents (who may not even have been Christians) made some promises on my behalf.



You mean, as a baby?
Baptism isn't a superstition; something that is done to give the baby spiritual life insurance and "guarantee" that God will save them and let them get to heaven.



Which is not what happened to me as a baby; I didn't repent of anything.

I do now actually accept child baptism, and if I hadn't been baptised as an adult and had friends who were urging me to do so; I might not.
But one of the reasons for being baptised again was to confess the faith for myself, and follow the way of the NT. If either of my baptisms were "invalid", it was probably the first.

Baptism has never been about confession, it has been about something God does in you. What you are thinking about is Confirmation.

 

[Strong in Him]

Baptism has never been about confession, it has been about something God does in you. What you are thinking about is Confirmation.

No I'm not. I was answering those in this thread who say that we "repent and be baptised"; that it is part of the salvation process. Re my baptism as a baby; that happened before I was saved. Re my baptism as an adult; that happened a few years afterwards.

As a matter of fact, the reason I am now ok with infant baptism is that I do believe it is something God does in you; it's a perfect illustration of the fact that he sent Jesus to die and save us before we had belief. We can never DO anything to earn God's favour - and baptising a baby illustrates this.
I'm not ashamed, or going to repent of, being baptised as an adult. If I'd waited a few years, I may not have done it. Yet I'm glad I did.

Confirmation is when you make for yourself the promises that others made for you when you were too young to understand.

 

[thecolorsblend]

How awesome that must of been!
The whole family being baptized the same day!
I've never heard of that before.

Really? I've seen it in Protestant ecclesial communities and the Catholic Church. Guess I assumed that it's a relatively common practice.

John's baptism was about repentance but it wasn't the same as the Christian one. Christian baptism is about joining into the family of Christ and forgiveness of sins.

Because Christian baptism is not the same as John's baptism. And the examples you provided are your own interpretations that none of the Traditional Christians, nor History shows as accurate.

You're on fire, bro. Keep it up!

 

[Acts2:38]

No, what is sad is individuals like you who do not comprehend God's Word appropriately and take verses out of context. It isn't funny , it is rather sad.
Salvation comes from 100% faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
I personally am baptized, but not for salvation .
I received Christ as Saviour then I was baptized.

Your opinions,verse scriptures I have put forth, are worthless. I will not waste time with someone who only posts opinions and not facts