Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

[Strong in Him]

The point of baptism is to spiritually bring you into Christ (Galatians 3:27) and into His atoning death (Romans 6:3-11).

That is why the Bible shows that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21), by water-immersion (burial) baptism (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:4-11, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

That would suggest that anyone who accepts Jesus and receives the Spirit but dies before they can be baptised, is not saved; that Jesus' death wasn't enough to save them.
Maybe when he said, "it is finished" on the cross, he really meant "it is partly finished, but unless people get baptised then this has all been for nothing."

 

[Bible2+]

Strong in Him said in post #381:

That would suggest that anyone who accepts Jesus and receives the Spirit but dies before they can be baptised, is not saved; that Jesus' death wasn't enough to save them.

Note that it is water-immersion (burial) baptism which brings us into Jesus' saving death (Romans 6:3-11).

Strong in Him said in post #381:

Maybe when he said, "it is finished" on the cross, he really meant "it is partly finished, but unless people get baptised then this has all been for nothing."

It is the same with faith: unless people come into faith then Jesus' saving death counts for nothing toward saving them from hell.

And people need both faith and baptism to be saved ultimately, for:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved . . .

So if you get rid of the necessity of baptism, why not also get rid of the necessity of faith?

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Indeed, there are some people who do reject the idea that our salvation can depend on our faith, for then our salvation would no longer be based on the Cross, but on ourselves.

But it is not either/or, but both/and. For our salvation depends both on the fact that Jesus Christ suffered and died on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 3:18) and on our believing to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) that He did so (Romans 3:25-26). Similarly, our salvation depends both on the fact that Jesus resurrected physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:4,17) and on our believing to the end that He did so (Romans 10:9b). Also, our salvation depends both on the fact that Jesus is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (Mark 14:61-62) and on our believing to the end that He is (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23).

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Just as we can't get rid of the necessity of believing, so we can't get rid of the necessity of baptism.

 

[Strong in Him]

Note that it is water-immersion (burial) baptism which brings us into Jesus' saving death (Romans 6:3-11).

Unless a person has faith and has accepted Jesus, baptism is just an empty ritual.
Mormons baptise by immersion, yet they are a cult and I've heard that Satanists have a perverted kind of baptism. Just dunking someone in water, means nothing.

It is the same with faith: unless people come into faith then Jesus' saving death counts for nothing toward saving them from hell.

And people need both faith and baptism to be saved ultimately, for:

Baptism is desirable but not NEEDED.
Otherwise, like I said, you are saying that Jesus' death was not enough to save; that he only partly did what he came to do.

So if you get rid of the necessity of baptism, why not also get rid of the necessity of faith?

We are saved through faith in Jesus, and acceptance of his atoning death on the cross.
We can do NOTHING to earn God's love, favour, mercy or salvation. We can go to church 3x on a Sunday, read the whole Bible, get baptised and confirmed, and be on every church committee possible - none of that saves. Unless we accept that Jesus ALONE is the way to the Father and it it his death, and not our works, that reconcile us to the Father, then all of that is a waste of time and we remain unforgiven and not reconciled to the Father.

Baptism demonstrates our new life and Christian commitment.
Until John came, baptism was a new thing. Jews offered sacrifices to atone for their sins, as commanded through Moses. Only non Jews were baptised, to show that they were accepting the Jewish faith and becoming one of God's chosen.
John baptised people after they repented of their sin.
How did their baptism "bring people into Jesus' saving death" when Jesus had, at that point, not even arrived, never mind died? Supposing some of those who were baptised had actually rejected Jesus' teaching and opposed him; would their baptism alone have saved them?

Indeed, there are some people who do reject the idea that our salvation can depend on our faith, for then our salvation would no longer be based on the Cross, but on ourselves.

Salvation is about accepting what Jesus has done for us; receiving the gift that God has given, Romans 6:23.
If someone accepts that gift, they receive eternal life, are filled with the Spirit and born again. Their faith may sometimes waver or not be very strong, they may doubt or sometimes lose sight of God, but they are still saved. A person does not become unsaved, or rejected by God, due to the strength of their faith.

But it is not either/or, but both/and.

Jesus has reconciled us to God, won our salvation, is the only name by which we can be save, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, and is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.
Jesus saves - not Jesus + anything.
We are baptised to show that we accept Jesus and demonstrate what has already happened to us - that we have died to self, been crucified with Christ and have been raised to new life, a new start, 1 John 1:9, become new creations 2 Corinthians 5:17 and received every spiritual blessing in Christ, Ephesians 1:3. This is what happens when someone repents, accepts Jesus, is born again and trusts him for salvation. As the hymn says,
"and every offender who truly believes,
that moment, from Jesus, a pardon receives."

So if someone truly repents, accepts Jesus and believes, they are saved from sin and reconciled to God.
Baptism is important - especially if they were not baptised as children - but it does not make them MORE saved and reconciled to God, and does not give MORE eternal life.
If someone were to die before they were able to be baptised; they'd still be saved and belong to God.

 

[Bible2+]

Strong in Him said in post #383:

Unless a person has faith and has accepted Jesus, baptism is just an empty ritual.

That's right. And it is not even allowed (Acts 8:36-38).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

Mormons baptise by immersion, yet they are a cult and I've heard that Satanists have a perverted kind of baptism. Just dunking someone in water, means nothing.

Note that Christian water-immersion (burial) baptism brings one into Jesus Christ's atoning death (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

Baptism is desirable but not NEEDED.

Note that baptism is needed for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

. . . you are saying that Jesus' death was not enough to save; that he only partly did what he came to do . . .

We are saved through faith in Jesus, and acceptance of his atoning death on the cross.

Note that even when we say that faith is needed, we are saying that Jesus' death by itself is still not enough to save. For it does not save people who are without faith.

And there are some people who even say that requiring faith takes away the accomplishment of Jesus' blood, and make man's faith that which propitiates.

But this is not the case. For requiring faith for forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43) does not take away the accomplishment of Jesus' sacrificial blood. Nor does faith by itself propitiate sin. But propitiation comes to people only through their having faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26). An analogy would be a billionaire giving some poor people some checkbooks filled with blank checks signed by him which draw on his bank account, and telling them that they can write as many checks as they need to in order to pay off their debts. If the people do not believe that there is any (or enough) money in the account, then they will not write any checks drawing on it, and so they will not ever benefit from it. But this does not void the money in the account. And if the people do believe that there is enough money in the account, their belief does not take away the accomplishment of the billionaire in filling the account with his own money, and offering them access to it. Nor can their belief by itself pay off their debts. It will still be the billionaire's own money which will pay off their debts as they by faith write checks drawing on his account.

Strong in Him said in post #383:

We can do NOTHING to earn God's love, favour, mercy or salvation.

That's right, we can never earn them (Romans 4:4).

But there are still things that we need to do in order to access them ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

We can go to church 3x on a Sunday, read the whole Bible, get baptised and confirmed, and be on every church committee possible - none of that saves.

Note that works do save ultimately (James 2:24).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

Unless we accept that Jesus ALONE is the way to the Father and it is his death, and not our works, that reconcile us to the Father, then all of that is a waste of time and we remain unforgiven and not reconciled to the Father.

Note that actual obedience to Jesus is required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

Baptism demonstrates our new life and Christian commitment.

Note that baptism saves us (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) ultimately, by bringing us into Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27) and into His atoning death (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

John baptised people after they repented of their sin. How did their baptism "bring people into Jesus' saving death" when Jesus had, at that point, not even arrived, never mind died?

John's baptism was not the same as Christian baptism (Acts 19:3-5).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

A person does not become unsaved, or rejected by God, due to the strength of their faith.

But a person does become unsaved ultimately if he falls away from the faith (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

Jesus saves - not Jesus + anything.

But note that you have already admitted that we also need faith. For Jesus + no faith does not save.

And it is the same with baptism (Mark 16:16).

Strong in Him said in post #383:

So if someone truly repents, accepts Jesus and believes, they are saved from sin and reconciled to God.

Initially, but ultimate salvation requires works (Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Strong in Him]

Note that Christian water-immersion (burial) baptism brings one into Jesus Christ's atoning death (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).

Like I've said before, someone can be baptised and not even be a Christian. Or they could have been baptised as a child and only become a Christian years later - or maybe never at all.

Note that baptism is needed for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

I believe that Jesus is enough; he is all we need to save us.
I don't believe that God would reject someone who has accepted his Son but
who has not been baptised.

Note that even when we say that faith is needed, we are saying that Jesus' death by itself is still not enough to save.

No; the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus, Romans 6:23.
Gifts need to be accepted/received. That is what we do. God does everything else; draws us to himself, loves us so that we can love him, gives us faith, his Spirit and every spiritual blessing in Christ.

And there are some people who even say that requiring faith takes away the accomplishment of Jesus' blood, and make man's faith that which propitiates.

Faith is a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8. It comes through hearing God's word, Romans 10:17.
It is not OUR faith which we have produced and worked up for ourselves.

That's right, we can never earn them (Romans 4:4).

But there are still things that we need to do in order to access them ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

We need to accept them.
All is from God and are gifts from him - as I said, gifts need to be received.

Note that works do save ultimately (James 2:24).
.

No; Jesus saves.
The Pharisees once asked Jesus what they had to do to do the works that God requires. Jesus replied, the work of God is to believe in the One he has sent, John 6:29.
This is what God wants for us; his will is that we believe and have eternal life, John 6:40.

Any works, or good deeds, that we do are only in response to his love and show our love and desire to serve him. We work because we ARE saved, not in order to BE saved.

Note that actual obedience to Jesus is required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

Salvation is a bit like the kingdom, in that it is now ... but not yet.
In other words, we can know NOW that we are saved by Jesus; that we have been saved form sin and death and given eternal life. But full and complete salvation - which is wholeness in body, mind and spirit - will only be realised at death. We are certainly encouraged to persevere in the Christian faith, hold on to what is good, continue to the end and so on. Yet this would be meaningless if we were not initially saved through Jesus.
HE is the way to God - not OUR works, faith, church ritual or anything else.

Note that baptism saves us (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) ultimately, by bringing us into Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27) and into His atoning death (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).

It didn't save me.
Jesus saved me. I was a Christian for several years before I was baptised by immersion - and some never are. Some people were baptised as children, become Christians later in life, and are not baptised by immersion.

John's baptism was not the same as Christian baptism (Acts 19:3-5).

Maybe.
My point is that John was baptising people who repented and confessed their sins - as commanded by God. I don't believe, had any of them died before Jesus had, or before they could understand what his death meant, that God would have rejected them ans said that their repentance and baptism weren't good enough.

But a person does become unsaved ultimately if he falls away from the faith (Hebrews 6:4-8).

If they deliberately turn away from the faith, reject God, refuse all promptings and opportunities to repent; yes.
But those verse from Hebrews do not say that or mean what you are saying they mean.
The author was referring to Jewish Christians who were tempted to save themselves from the persecution of Christians by saying that they were Jewish. They could have gone back to the synagogues and been left in peace - but in order to be accepted again by Jews, they would have had to publicly declare that Jesus was not the Messiah and that they had been mistaken. It seems that some were thinking that, when persecution came, they would do that; publicly deny Jesus, in order to save their lives, and become Christians again once the danger was passed. The author was saying that this was not possible, as they would be crucifying Jesus all over again.
The verses do not mean that if someone backslides, has doubts or temporarily loses sight of God, that they cannot turn back and have lost their salvation.
God knows everyone's hearts - all our thoughts and motives, and promised not to bend a bruised reed nor snuff out a smouldering wick.

 

[Bible2+]

Strong in Him said in post #385:

. . . someone can be baptised and not even be a Christian. Or they could have been baptised as a child and only become a Christian years later - or maybe never at all.

Note that baptism is not allowed if someone is not a Christian with all of his heart (Acts 8:36-38).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

. . . Jesus is enough; he is all we need to save us.

Note that we also need faith in Him if we are to saved (John 3:36).

And it is baptism which brings us into Him (Galatians 3:27).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

I don't believe that God would reject someone who has accepted his Son but who has not been baptised.

He doesn't, initially. But note that ultimately salvation does depend on baptism (Mark 16:16).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

. . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus, Romans 6:23. Gifts need to be accepted/received.

Amen. And the way that we ultimately accept/receive Jesus Christ's atoning death is to be water-immersion (burial) baptized into it (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

Faith is a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8. It comes through hearing God's word, Romans 10:17. It is not OUR faith which we have produced and worked up for ourselves.

That's right. But because of free will, we can fall away from the faith, to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

Jesus saves.

Note that He ultimately saves us by both our faith and works (James 2:24).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

The Pharisees once asked Jesus what they had to do to do the works that God requires. Jesus replied, the work of God is to believe in the One he has sent, John 6:29.

John 6:28-29 means that for people to work the works of God, they must believe in Jesus Christ. For apart from Jesus, people cannot work any works of God (John 15:5b). And it is God's will that people do works in addition to faith (Ephesians 2:10).

Also, John 6:29 can mean, at the same time, that only God can cause people to become believers in Jesus (John 6:65).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

This is what God wants for us; his will is that we believe and have eternal life, John 6:40.

Amen. But note that ultimately, eternal life depends on obedience to God (Matthew 7:21).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

Any works, or good deeds, that we do are only in response to his love and show our love and desire to serve him. We work because we ARE saved, not in order to BE saved.

It's both. For our salvation will ultimately depend on our works (Romans 2:6-8).

And it is possible for saved people to wrongly employ their free will to not continue to do good works, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

. . . full and complete salvation - which is wholeness in body, mind and spirit - will only be realised at death.

No, at our physical resurrection (Romans 8:23-25), at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

[Re: Jesus]

HE is the way to God - not OUR works, faith, church ritual or anything else.

It's all of those. For ultimately our salvation will depend on our obedience to Jesus (Hebrews 5:9).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

[Re: John the Baptist]

. . . John was baptising people who repented and confessed their sins - as commanded by God. I don't believe, had any of them died before Jesus had, or before they could understand what his death meant, that God would have rejected them and said that their repentance and baptism weren't good enough.

They were still under the Old Covenant. For the New Covenant did not come into effect until Jesus' death (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17).

The souls of those who died in faith under the Old Covenant got saved by Jesus after His resurrection (1 Peter 3:18c-19, 1 Peter 4:6, Ephesians 4:8-9).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

[Re: Hebrews 6:4-8]

The author was referring to Jewish Christians who were tempted to save themselves from the persecution of Christians by saying that they were Jewish.

Note that Hebrews 6:4-8 applies also to Gentile Christians, who can also commit apostasy.

For example, Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Biblical Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, for some Christians' love for Him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that He is letting them and their little ones suffer in the Tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

The verses do not mean that if someone backslides, has doubts or temporarily loses sight of God, that they cannot turn back and have lost their salvation.

That's right, anything short of apostasy is still ultimately saveable.

Also, if Christians ever feel that their faith is weakening into unbelief, they can pray to Jesus Christ to help them (Mark 9:24). If they want more faith to come into their hearts, they can read the Bible, or listen to someone reading the Bible out loud (Romans 10:17), whether in person or in a recording. And they can pray to Jesus to increase their faith (Luke 17:5).

If Christians want to keep their hearts from being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13b), they can fellowship with other Christians every day (Hebrews 3:13), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum, being exhorted by them, and exhorting them in turn (Hebrews 10:25). One way that Christians can lose their faith is by having unrepentant sin in their lives which sears their conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2b), to where they begin to reject the faith, and start listening to lies from demons instead (1 Timothy 4:1-2). In a desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Ultimately, the only rock-solid base for Christian faith is doing God's will (Matthew 7:24-25, John 7:17, James 1:22). For if Christians remain in disobedience to God without repentance, their faith will come to have, as it were, a foundation of sand, so that their faith will collapse when trouble comes (Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), such as during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13). It is Christians' obedience to Jesus Christ's commands which causes Him to continue to manifest Himself to them (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).

Strong in Him said in post #385:

God knows everyone's hearts - all our thoughts and motives, and promised not to bend a bruised reed nor snuff out a smouldering wick.

Amen (Isaiah 42:3).