Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

[Bible2+]

Alithis said in post #222:

... faith is not a thing you have it is an action you do . no action = no faith.

That's right, ultimately (James 2:26).

God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

oh dear .. the moment people call one another self righteous they are being self righteous.

skip the name calling and all will go well

Actually it doesn't.
If you see someone looting a store and say "hey there is a looter ", does that make you a looter?
NO.
That would be silly wouldn't it?
Yes, it would. Just like thinking baptism is part of ones salvation.

 

[Alithis]

There IS such a thing as infant baptism, and I would say that it is done to the vast majority of people.

quote verse please - not mans religious opinion

 

[Alithis]

Actually it doesn't.
If you see someone looting a store and say "hey there is a looter ", does that make you a looter?
NO.
That would be silly wouldn't it?
Yes, it would. Just like thinking baptism is part of ones salvation.

lol except you'd have evidence .
but when a person gets upset with another persons refusal to accept their opinion as right , that does not mean the 2nd party is self righteous ..it means the first party is upset that they wont accept their opinion .... to then accuse the 2nd party of being self righteous is in itself a form of self righteousness because its not an honest assessment it is an emotional assessment without evidence

 

[sdowney717]

.. great .. of we go then do whatever we wish .do good do evil sin freely its all done ,just cruise your way to eternity --yeah , i know our not saying that. but you imply it regardless .And such a person living that way is responding to god from a clear conscience and their response is to rebel .. they will not be saved . Abraham did not rebel .. he responded correctly , obediently . by the way it plainy does not say it does not involves faith but that it is by grace THROUGH faith .. faith is not a thing you have it is an action you do . no action = no faith .

You have no comprehension of grace, you think grace enables you to choose to believe or not believe. Grace though creates you as a new creation in Christ not according to your will but according to the will of God.

Jesus said why we believe in Him and why we do not.
Unless God the Father gives you to Christ (by His grace) you will not believe in His Son Christ.
No one who is given to Christ by God will be lost.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

[ExTiff]

oh yes of course.
I look at the book of Acts to see what happened there with baptism. Especially chapter 8...The Apostles came to Samaria and saw that the new believers had "ONLY been baptised" in the name of Jesus. They had not yet received the Holy Spirit, He had not yet fallen upon them. Peter and John laid hands on them to receive the greater baptism, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
At Cornelius' house ---as they heard what Peter preached about forgiveness and Jesus the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did to the 120 at Pentecost. No one in Cornelius household had been baptised in water, but the Lord converted their hearts in a twinkling as they received the good news, and He baptised them Himself with the Holy SPirit.
It shows me that the Lord Himself is not that concerned with water baptism....
Of course they would have been baptised after this for it is an opportunity to declare publicly Jesus Christ as Saviour and Redeemer and Lord...and to renounce our past gods and sins.

It shows me that the Lord Himself is not that concerned with water baptism....

Indeed, Jesus did not baptize with water. Even His own Apostles were not baptized by Jesus in water. Paul also held lightly to the significance of baptism regarding who does it when and how.

"For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel",

There are many who are similarly quarrelsome in the church today, concerning whether they want to be baptized by a male or a female minister, (as if only men can be a servant of Christ or minister to others). They are effectively saying "I follow only men."
.

 

[ExTiff]

there is no such thing as infant baptism .. one repents and having done so obeys god in baptism . one does not baptize in order to repent . its like saying you should go to the hospital and have an adult ,that then becomes a baby 20 years later . nope you have a baby that grows to an adult .

i already know that wil fly over the roost

A young and inexperienced novice in the scriptures once said to his Bishop something along the lines of what you suggest. "there is no such thing as infant baptism .. one repents and having done so obeys god in baptism . one does not baptize in order to repent . Anyone who has spent half an hour in The New Testament could tell you that sir."

To which the Bishop politely replied: "Yes I agree with you on that last point but if someone has spent half a lifetime in the whole of the scriptures, as I have, they might reach a more enlightened conclusion".

I am astonished at the intellectual arrogance of those who assume they already know everything there is to know about baptism, without even bothering to find out why the church has been baptizing infants for as long as the church can remember. There are sound Biblical reasons for doing most things the church continues to do. You should listen and read more than you talk and write and do a little research before you teach so pontifically.
.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You have no comprehension of grace, you think grace enables you to choose to believe or not believe. Grace though creates you as a new creation in Christ not according to your will but according to the will of God.

Jesus said why we believe in Him and why we do not.
Unless God the Father gives you to Christ (by His grace) you will not believe in His Son Christ.
No one who is given to Christ by God will be lost.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

After being baptised into Moses, Israel drank from the Rock. This means they were put into trouble by God and then saved, deprived of water and then fed, just to show:

1. The journey was going to require facing hardship requiring them to trust God.
2. God was able to make sure they reached the Promised Land.

After being baptised into Christ, Ananias and Sapphira wanted to make their own provision in case they landed in harm’s way, lying to the Holy Spirit that they believed God could save them from troubles, and take them into the Kingdom of God, by saying they had cut their ties with depending on serving selfish interest, and were depending on serving God .

The people of Jerusalem were afraid of taking on the task of going on the journey that would result in entering the Kingdom of God, rest.

Acts 5:13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

Baptism into Moses results in candidates, who do not murmur when hardships come, but are loyal to God and remember His great works, entering the Promised Land.

Baptism into Christ results in candidates, who do not murmur when hardships come, but are loyal to God and remember His great works, entering the Kingdom of God.

Sure, grace is not like works, in that it does not depend on perfect performance, but who are the people who receive grace? Aren’t they the people who respond properly when required, either with belief and/or by action? Isn’t that why the rest of the people in Jerusalem were afraid to join the disciples?

 

[Wordkeeper]

A young and inexperienced novice in the scriptures once said to his Bishop something along the lines of what you suggest. "there is no such thing as infant baptism .. one repents and having done so obeys god in baptism . one does not baptize in order to repent . Anyone who has spent half an hour in The New Testament could tell you that sir."

To which the Bishop politely replied: "Yes I agree with you on that last point but if someone has spent half a lifetime in the whole of the scriptures, as I have, they might reach a more enlightened conclusion".

I am astonished at the intellectual arrogance of those who assume they already know everything there is to know about baptism, without even bothering to find out why the church has been baptizing infants for as long as the church can remember. There are sound Biblical reasons for doing most things the church continues to do. You should listen and read more than you talk and write and do a little research before you teach so pontifically.
.

Infants are baptised into the covenant the parents agreed to follow. Different covenants have different requirements and different benefits. We see that Paul was anxious that the believers mentioned in the text of Acts of the Apostles 19 upgrade to the superior covenant which empowered believers (Jeremiah 31) and also allowed them to leave the guardianship of the Old Covenant to enter the Kingdom, be in Christ, in the New Covenant.

Which bus ticket did your parents buy? Will they reach Sevenoaks, or will they have to get off at Beckenham?

 

[sdowney717]

After being baptised into Moses, Israel drank from the Rock. This means they were put into trouble by God and then saved, deprived of water and then fed, just to show:

1. The journey was going to require facing hardship requiring them to trust God.
2. God was able to make sure they reached the Promised Land.

After being baptised into Christ, Ananias and Sapphira wanted to make their own provision in case they landed in harm’s way, lying to the Holy Spirit that they believed God could save them from troubles, and take them into the Kingdom of God, by saying they had cut their ties with depending on serving selfish interest, and were depending on serving God .

The people of Jerusalem were afraid of taking on the task of going on the journey that would result in entering the Kingdom of God, rest.

Acts 5:13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

Baptism into Moses results in candidates, who do not murmur when hardships come, but are loyal to God and remember His great works, entering the Promised Land.

Baptism into Christ results in candidates, who do not murmur when hardships come, but are loyal to God and remember His great works, entering the Kingdom of God.

Sure, grace is not like works, in that it does not depend on perfect performance, but who are the people who receive grace? Aren’t they the people who respond properly when required, either with belief and/or by action? Isn’t that why the rest of the people in Jerusalem were afraid to join the disciples?

The people who receive grace are the ones God has foreknown as His people, grace here meaning to believe in the faith and only they recieve that grace for obedience to the faith.

Them that are called are those who have been given this grace to believe and have faith and only them, no one else. God must call you to be saints, and if He calls you, then you are what He calls you to be.
God calls things that are not as though they were....so then this is certain and true and can not be undone. If God has foreknown someone, then it will be so.

Romans 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who [a]was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The people who receive grace are the ones God has foreknown as His people, grace here meaning to believe in the faith and only they recieve that grace for obedience to the faith.

Them that are called are those who have been given this grace to believe and have faith and only them, no one else. God must call you to be saints, and if He calls you, then you are what He calls you to be.
God calls things that are not as though they were....so then this is certain and true and can not be undone. If God has foreknown someone, then it will be so.

Romans 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who [a]was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If "called" means elected then apparently election fails, because many are called, but only a few are chosen.

 

[ExTiff]

Infants are baptised into the covenant the parents agreed to follow. Different covenants have different requirements and different benefits. We see that Paul was anxious that the believers mentioned in the text of Acts of the Apostles 19 upgrade to the superior covenant which empowered believers (Jeremiah 31) and also allowed them to leave the guardianship of the Old Covenant to enter the Kingdom, be in Christ, in the New Covenant.

Which bus ticket did your parents buy? Will they reach Sevenoaks, or will they have to get off at Beckenham?

Which form of 'Baptist' indoctrination did you submit to in your formative years?

If you are going to adopt a supercilious and sarcastic tone from the get go, I am not willing to engage with you in polite debate. It is up to you if you wish to remain in ignorance with your question unanswered.

The fact that I am here is evidence however that my father did not get off at Fratton.
.

 

[sdowney717]

If "called" means elected then apparently election fails, because many are called, but only a few are chosen.

Called has the appropriate meaning in context of the verse.

To be of 'the called' means those called to be saints, and that is not all people, but only for them He has called to be His, and so they are then His.

Romans 1 is very clear, the called are the saints.
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

as is Romans 8, where our calling is for those He has foreknown (foreknew them in love, not what they did. Foreknew precedes all the other descriptives.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

These verses are an affirmation to the believers that all God foreknew, will be saved, so it is to be considered something good and certain about their salvation to them that have worries and fears, as these verses are written to the saints, the church.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

lol except you'd have evidence .
but when a person gets upset with another persons refusal to accept their opinion as right , that does not mean the 2nd party is self righteous ..it means the first party is upset that they wont accept their opinion .... to then accuse the 2nd party of being self righteous is in itself a form of self righteousness because its not an honest assessment it is an emotional assessment without evidence

You are assuming one is upset and you are assuming one made an emotional assessment which is your opinion not evidence.
It has nothing to do with whether anyone accepts an opinion or not , or is in agreement.
To say one must be baptized to receive salvation or as a part of salvation is in fact self-righteous not opinion. It is also stating that Jesus Christ isn't enough to save someone.

 

[Not David]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the infilling of the Holy Spirit when he comes upon you.

Speaking in tongues is one of the signs. If you dont speak in tongues it does not automatically mean you are not saved. Speaking in tongues is one result of the Holy Spirit's infilling.

Salvation is not the same as Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes after salvation but not everyone that is saved is Baptized in the Holy Spirit.. Just like people who are saved are not always baptized in water yet.

All people born are physically born of a woman (unless we have clones yet), thus all are born from water... you have to open the placenta no matter if it is c-section or natural birth. Where did i say natural birth? It means to be born and begotten as well as water baptism. Arent you born if you are a c-section and by normal process?

How am I supposed to know that I am baptized by the Holy Spirit? Do I have to have feelings or something?
Also, Paul said "one Lord, one faith and one Baptism", water baptism is always mentioned no "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". The only thing you would have to do is to make people stop baptizing but you know that that is unbiblical.

 

[ExTiff]

How am I supposed to know that I am baptized by the Holy Spirit? Do I have to have feelings or something?
Also, Paul said "one Lord, one faith and one Baptism", water baptism is always mentioned no "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". The only thing you would have to do is to make people stop baptizing but you know that that is unbiblical.

Also, Paul said "one Lord, one faith and one Baptism".

Paul is probably referring to Baptism in the holy Spirit here rather than individual water baptism, 1 Cor.12:13;. (Though the two can be symbolically synonymous), the water baptism is merely a sacramental symbolic ritual denoting the invisible reality Holy Spirit Baptism, which is the invisible grace of which water baptism is the visible sign. According to Paul we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we hear the full Gospel and believe it in faith. Gal.3:2.

How am I supposed to know that I am baptized by (in), the Holy Spirit? Do I have to have feelings or something?

First time round, how did you know you had been born, and how old were you when you did finally find out?

Did you have 'feelings' about your first birth? If not why expect 'feelings' about being born again? After your first birth you found out it had happened and got on with what you thought was 'life'. Correct?

After being born again you just do the self same thing, except this time you are really 'living', not just 'going through the motions'. The difference this time is that you will be more concerned about what God / Jesus / The Holy Spirit thinks about your behaviour, than you were before. (If you are not neglecting such great salvation), that is.
.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Which form of 'Baptist' indoctrination did you submit to in your formative years?

If you are going to adopt a supercilious and sarcastic tone from the get go, I am not willing to engage with you in polite debate. It is up to you if you wish to remain in ignorance with your question unanswered.

The fact that I am here is evidence however that my father did not get off at Fratton.
.

Just remarking that people going through the motion think they have done the exact same thing with the exact same understanding as the people more than 2000 years before...

 

[Wordkeeper]

Called has the appropriate meaning in context of the verse.

To be of 'the called' means those called to be saints, and that is not all people, but only for them He has called to be His, and so they are then His.

Romans 1 is very clear, the called are the saints.
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

as is Romans 8, where our calling is for those He has foreknown (foreknew them in love, not what they did. Foreknew precedes all the other descriptives.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

These verses are an affirmation to the believers that all God foreknew, will be saved, so it is to be considered something good and certain about their salvation to them that have worries and fears, as these verses are written to the saints, the church.

God seems to be treading water here, making a lot of effort and not going anywhere. That's what I can conclude if He calls the unelected as well as the elected.

 

[Wordkeeper]

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Wow! I just saw this.

Paul is probably referring to Baptism in the holy Spirit here rather than individual water baptism, 1 Cor.12:13;. (Though the two can be symbolically synonymous), the water baptism is merely a sacramental symbolic ritual denoting the invisible reality Holy Spirit Baptism, which is the invisible grace of which water baptism is the visible sign.

Wrong. Water baptism is the act of recognition that the candidate has sworn to leave serving selfish interest for earthly treasure and promised to serve God for treasure that does not perish.

Galatans 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

According to Paul we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we hear the full Gospel and believe it in faith. Gal.3:2.

That Good News being that we have been showed that the Kingdom has arrived amongst us.

How am I supposed to know that I am baptized by (in), the Holy Spirit? Do I have to have feelings or something?

First time round, how did you know you had been born, and how old were you when you did finally find out?

Did you have 'feelings' about your first birth? If not why expect 'feelings' about being born again? After your first birth you found out it had happened and got on with what you thought was 'life'. Correct?

After being born again you just do the self same thing, except this time you are really 'living', not just 'going through the motions'. The difference this time is that you will be more concerned about what God / Jesus / The Holy Spirit thinks about your behaviour, than you were before. (If you are not neglecting such great salvation), that is.

Wrong. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not about being born again. The term ¨Baptism in the Holy Spirit¨, into the New Covenant, is used to differentiate it from the baptism into water, the Old Covenant, which did not offer the Holy Spirit as a benefit. See Galatians 3:2 above.

Mark 1:8I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

This is why I emphasise that people should know what ticket they have bought. If they buy the wrong ticket, or don´t buy any ticket, they aren´t going anywhere (or getting any benefit).

 

[ExTiff]

Just remarking that people going through the motion think they have done the exact same thing with the exact same understanding as the people more than 2000 years before...

But that is making the generalized assumption that all infant baptizers have no valid doctrinal reason for doing what they do, which in fact is far from the truth of what is actually the case, let alone the arrogance of making the erroneous presumption that there are no valid scriptural reasons for baptizing infants. There are, it is just that most 'baptists' have scant knowledge of them.
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