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If you do not eat pork, Christ will profit you nothing

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LittleLambofJesus, May 28, 2013.

  1. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Seriously now ?

    It could have already caused many to sin, some weak in faith to stumble, and some seekers of truth to go away (which would probably be best for them anyway, eh? ) .
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Brother, I think you misunderstood the meaning of the verse in question and what I was saying by it. I was quoting it to say that the premise of the OP, that you are worse off if you DON'T eat pork, is not faithful to the whole counsel of God.
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Hello again brother @SonOfZion: I believe that the principle of stronger and weaker brothers is spoken of in both 1 Corinthians 8 and in Romans 14, and therefore in my interpretation I heap them together. In Romans 14, the immediate context refers not only to meat sacrificed to idols, but to clean and unclean; and since the principle of weaker and stronger brothers is the same in both passages, I believe that they can be applied interchangeably, so that 1 Corinthians 8 is not only speaking of meat sacrificed to idols, but can be applied to clean and unclean animals also.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Paul also kept Torah [as did all the Jewish Apostles and Disciples].

    Phl 3:5
    circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-apostle-paul-kept-the-torah.7676177/
    the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  5. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Does Romans 14 Abolish Torahs on Unclean Meats?

    Many believe Romans 14 says that Christians are free from all former restrictions regarding the meats they may eat. They cite as proof verse 14, in which Paul wrote, "know — that is, I have been persuaded by the Adonai Yeshua the Messiah — that nothing is unclean in itself. But if a person considers something unclean, then for him it is unclean."

    This approach, however, fails to consider the context of Paul's letter as well as the specific Greek words he used.

    Many Bible resources agree that Paul wrote the book of 1 Corinthians around C.E. 55 and that he wrote his epistle to the Romans from Corinth in 56 or 57. The food controversy in Corinth (reflected in chapters 8 and 10) was over meat sacrificed to idols.

    Since Paul was writing to the Romans from Corinth, where this had been a significant issue, the subject was fresh on Paul's mind and is the logical, biblically supported basis for his comments in Romans 14.

    Understanding Paul's intent

    Those who assume the subject of Romans 14 is a retraction of God's Torah regarding clean and unclean animals must force this interpretation into the text because it has no biblical foundation. The chapter itself shows that the discussion concerned meat sacrificed to idols.

    Verse 2 contrasts the person who "eats only vegetables" with the one who believes "he may eat all things"— meat as well as vegetables. Verse 6 discusses eating vs. not eating and is variously interpreted as referring to fasting (not eating or drinking), vegetarianism (consuming only vegetables) or eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols.

    Verse 21 shows that meat offered to idols was the underlying issue of this chapter: "It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak." The Romans of the day commonly offered both meat and wine to idols, with portions of the offerings later sold in the marketplace.

    The Life Application Bible comments on verse 2: "The ancient system of sacrifice was at the center of the religious, social, and domestic life of the Roman world. After a sacrifice was presented to a god in a pagan temple, only part of it was burned. The remainder was often sent to the market to be sold. Thus a Christian might easily—even unknowingly—buy such meat in the marketplace or eat it at the home of a friend.

    http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/romans14.html
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    re #184:

    Actually, in the long run, Paul counted his Torah-keeping as loss and as being dung in comparison to knowing Christ. In Philippians 3:6-9, Paul seems to even forsake the prestige of having been blameless according to the law, in order that he might be found in Christ, not having his own righteousness, which was of the law, but that which was through the faith of Jesus Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

    This righteousness being attested to by the law and the prophets that it was righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

    It goes like this: we receive the Holy Ghost through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14); He sheds abroad His love in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5); and this love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6). Also in walking according to the Spirit (who sheds abroad His love in our hearts), the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

    But can you see how the root of this righteousness is faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross? We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We respond to His great and wonderful sacrifice by falling in love with the One who loved us with so great a love; and in loving Him we serve Him and seek to obey His will, which is declared to us through His commandments.

    We don't earn our salvation through the keeping of His commandments; but we obey His commandments as the result of the fact that He has saved us and we are simply thankful to Him, and love Him much for that He has forgiven us much (Luke 7:36-50).
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Brother, I receive you as a brother but as this is a doubtful disputation maybe we will have to agree to disagree. I myself do not eat unclean foods if I can help it, but I do not find that the Bible condemns Gentiles who have put their faith in Christ but who are even unaware of the food laws of the Old Testament. 1 Timothy 4:4-6 tells me that every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. And also that in pointing this out, I am being a good minister of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus said to give alms of all you possess and that if you do so, behold, all things are clean to you! Notwithstanding I myself do not eat unclean foods if I can help it for the sake of my weaker brother who might be stumbled by such a liberty.

    Salvation is indeed through faith in Christ and no flesh will be justified in His sight through law-keeping (Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    In 1 Corinthians 10:23-32, we find that we even have the liberty to eat meat sacrificed to idols if we go to a banquet and no one tells us that it was sacrificed to idols. If they tell us, then we are to refrain because of the other person's conscience, not our own. We receive any food with thanksgiving, we are not condemned.
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Look again - Neither Jesus, ever, nor the Apostles, including Paul, considered their TORAH KEEPING as loss, ever.

    Only those who thought they were or could be saved by TORAH KEEPING were in grave danger if not already 'anathema' for believing and bringing a false gospel .

    All through Scripture, TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT, TORAH KEEPING is GOOD, when used properly, and necessary, by faith, not loss.

    Remember Yahweh's Written Word:
    Romans 3:31
    Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

    Romans 3:27
    So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting.

    Romans 3:28
    Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of Torah commands.

    Romans 2:26
    Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won’t his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

    Romans 2:27
    Indeed, the man who is physically uncircumcised but obeys the Torah will stand as a judgment on you who have had a b’rit-milah and have Torah written out but violate it!

    Romans 2:14
    For whenever Gentiles, who have no Torah, do naturally what the Torah requires, then these, even though they don’t have Torah, for themselves are Torah!

    Romans 2:15
    For their lives show that the conduct the Torah dictates is written in their hearts. Their consciences also bear witness to this, for their conflicting thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them

    Romans 2:13
    For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God’s sight.

    (as Jesus Says: Whoever HEARS the Father's Word and DOES it, THEY are My mother and brothers and sisters)

    https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=torah&qs_version=CJB&limit=500

    (410 times total that TORAH is in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and (276 times) > NEW TESTAMENT)

    i.e. MORE TIMEs in the NEW TESTAMENT than in the old, almost DOUBLE!
     
  10. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Actually Paul said that the Torah is not made void by faith, he said Let that never be, Believers Uphold the Torah Romans 3:31 Paul delighted in the Torah of God after the Inward man. Romans 7:22, The New Creation Hebrews 8:10 I will write my Torah upon their hearts and minds - Psalms 40:8

    What Paul counted as rubbish was his own righteousness, that was by the "works of the law" No one makes it with their own Righteousness. The problem wasn't keeping the Torah, but keeping it for salvation without having Faith. Romans 9:32

    Blessed is the man to whom YHWH does not impute iniquity

    YHWH could no more do away with His Torah than HE could do away with Himself, It is the nature of His Character, what is Holy, what is not Holy (set-apart) It proceeds from Him. Isaiah 51:4

    And He is the same today, yesterday and forever

    He did not make up commandments just on whims.

    How to know that you love the Brethren 1 John 5:2

    You don't love the brethren when you teach them not to keep the commandments. Matthew 5:18-19

    Peter didn't warn that the unlearned (Those that do not know what the Torah Teaches) Twist Paul's words to their own destruction as they do the rest of the scriptures for nothing.

    And he definitely wasn't kidding
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Philippians 3:6-9, Concerning zeal, persecuting the church, touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I might win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Philippians 3:5
    b’rit-milah on the eighth day,by birth belonging to the people of Isra’el,from the tribe of Binyamin,a Hebrew-speaker, with Hebrew-speaking parents,in regard to the Torah, a Parush,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    2 Thessalonians 2:7
    For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    2 Thessalonians 2:8
    Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    2 Thessalonians 2:9
    When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.

     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    re #192:

    So you think Paul was the man spoken of in those verses? he was the one who wrote those verses!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    No one is arguing that we ought not to obey the law; just that our righteousness does not come through the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness through faith in Christ results in law-keeping, impaho.
     
  15. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    False witnesses arose that were saying that Paul was walking disorderly and not keeping the Torah - Because of this accusation, Four men took a nazarite vow until it could be determined whether or not what was being said about Paul was True. When confronted with this accusation, Paul was asked to be at charges with them, pay for the Animal sacrifices required by the Nazarite vow to Prove that He walked orderly and kept the Torah Acts of the Apostles 21:24

    What does he do, Paul pays for the Animal Sacrifices. Acts of the Apostles 21:26

    In 1 Corinthians 11:1 Paul says to Imitate him as he imitates Messiah

    Was Paul a Hypocrite, walked orderly kept the Torah around some, and not around others?

    Hogwash

    He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked. 1 John 2:6

    Walk - How we live our lives

    How did YESHUA and Paul Walk (live their lives), they kept the Torah - Paul delighted in it after the inward man, Also, thousands of Jews who believed were all Zealous for Torah. Acts of the Apostles 21:20 (Considered a Good Thing)

    Why did the Jerusalem council only give four things to new believers (Two of them Kosher Law) to do as requirements to be admitted into the Congregation - Are there only four? No, they would learn the rest every sabbath when the Torah was preached. Acts of the Apostles 15:21
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    The righteousness which is of God by faith is attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

    There is no law that will condemn you as a sinner if you are walking according to and bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

    In other words, if you are bearing the fruit of the Spirit you will not do anything in violation of the law. For love (which is the fruit of the Spirit) is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10).
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    In Romans 14:22, Paul told Gentile Christians that if they were going to have the liberty to do certain things, they should do them only in private and not in front of those who might be stumbled by it.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Paul called Peter out for eating with Jewish believers (when they showed up from James) after having eaten with the Gentiles (which may have included the eating of pork), saying that Peter was a hypocrite for doing so, in Galatians 2.

    Paul himself in that same situation ate with Gentiles and there would have been no power behind his words if he also did not continue to eat with the Gentiles when Peter dissimulated.
     
  19. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    ooops. The apostles NEVER let pork touch their lips even. Perhaps there is someone Jewish or who knew what the Jews thought of the dogs-gentiles at that time
    who would be able to explain to you the Scripture you so badly handled.
     
  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Romans 3:31
    Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.
     
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