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Lulav

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That seems like it is nothing but an excuse. I wrote that God didn't give the old covenant to any other nation and you come up with a very lame answer.
I'm sorry if the truth is lame to you.

You said, (in speaking of the Sabbath)

Yes, He did. He set it aside for one nation. He didn't do it for Gentile nations and of course it ended with the ratification of the New and better covenant with better promises at Calvary.
the Gentiles were heathens but there was a way they could participate.
Any that joined themselves to the children of Israel would have it to keep as well. Not all the servants were Jews.

And it wasn't just for the nation of people it also included:

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but
the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.
In it you shall do no work:
  1. you,
  2. nor your son,
  3. nor your daughter,
  4. nor your male servant,
  5. nor your female servant,
  6. nor your cattle,
  7. nor your stranger who is within your gates.

More lame excuses that have no bearing on any other nation. Oy Vey!

Please don't call God's Holy Torah or one of his ten commandments a lame excuse, thank you.

If you read the passage I quoted above that you called a lame excuse you will see that # 7 is speaking of Gentiles. These are called 'strangers'. Someone living within your community. Also called foreigners, sojourners, a 'ger'.



Israel was not alone at the Mountain.

The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth with about 600,000 men on foot, besides women and children. 38 And a mixed multitude also went up with them, along with great droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. 39 Since their dough had no leaven, the people baked what they had brought out of Egypt into unleavened loaves. For when they had been driven out of Egypt, they could not delay and had not prepared any provisions for themselves.​

It is called a Mixed Multitude in Exodus - and that in Hebrew means a huge amount of those who were not Children of Israel.
 
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Lulav

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The existence of these barrier signs is often used to try to make the following text in Ephesians not mean what it rather self-evidently means - that is the entirety of the Law of Moses that constitutes the "wall" or "barrier":

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [q]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [r]by abolishing [s]in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might [t]make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace;

It would be clear as clear could be that, in first century Israel, the Law of Moses effectively functioned to mark off the Jew as distinct from his Gentile neighbour. To suggest, as some (perhaps not you, Lulav) do, that Paul is talking about taking down these barrier signs is highly implausible for the painfully obvious reason that if all that has torn down are these barrier signs, the full body of the Law of Moses remains. And this certainly functioned as a "wall" between Jew and Gentile.
How do you understand this?:

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
 
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Bob S

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I'm sorry if the truth is lame to you.
Is that the best answer you can give? Show us where Torah or the Sabbath was given by God to any other nation


the Gentiles were heathens but there was a way they could participate.
I never wrote that they couldn't.

Please don't call God's Holy Torah or one of his ten commandments a lame excuse, thank you.
Come on Lulav, I know you can do better than that. Why does it come down to accusations? You know I never indicated Torah was not Holy. Your answers are lame excuses.

If you read the passage I quoted above that you called a lame excuse you will see that # 7 is speaking of Gentiles. These are called 'strangers'. Someone living within your community. Also called foreigners, sojourners, a 'ger'.
Yes, God welcomed Gentiles to become part of Israel's society and many Gentiles came out of Egypt and became circumcised and accepted the covenant. If they wanted to be part of Israel circumcision was required. Again, it was not God that gave lame excuses, it is YOU.

Israel was not alone at the Mountain.
No one has indicated they were. I, for one have read the scriptures and know many Gentiles also left Egypt, so please don't try to interject that I don't understand. Your whole consensus has nothing to do with my posting that God has not ever asked any other nation to observe the Sabbath.
 
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Bob S

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Actually, I know the Pharisees were not strict Sabbath Keepers, certainly not God's Sabbaths. And this because I "Believe in HIM" who sent Jesus, "AND" Jesus Himself.

So here is what Jesus said about these men you preach to the world were "Strict Sabbath Keepers".

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So it appears that you don't believe in this Jesus, or else you wouldn't make the Claim you made about their "strict obedience to God" where His Commandments are concerned.
Why do you try to deceive us with your Matt15 :7 response? The subject was not their Sabbath keeping as you should be aware. It was referring to the 5th commandment about honoring parents.

I admit I should not have used the word "strict". They were strict in their twisted additions. Just like those who tell us we have to "keep" Sabbath, "Keep" is a misnomer. No one is able to go for twenty-four hours without breaking Is58:13
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,



Exactly, Your quote proves my point. The desert walkers were no worse than those that crossed over Jordon. The all were Sabbath breakers.

So it also appears you don't believe in the God who sent Jesus either, regarding how the Pharisees treated God's Sabbaths.
How could you even think such a nasty thought?? What a shame that you come up with such a derogative statement. This always happens when one is backed into a corner and has nothing to add to the debate.

But maybe the Pharisees repented of their sin against God regarding His sabbaths and had changed after Christ ascended to His Father.
They didn't have to observe the Sabbath, they were now undern the new and better covenant with better promises. Oh yes, they deigned Jesus and His covenant and continued in their false belief system. Nothing new. Just like the denial of the rest Jesus so wanted them to accept. Heb 4

They were in a twisted way just as those who have a twisted belief we are somehow under old covenant Torah.
 
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expos4ever

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How do you understand this?:

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
I understand it to be a symbol that a barrier that existed between man and God is now gone. You seem to be implying that this is the same barrier that Paul (or whoever) is writing about in Ephesians 2. Well, where is your supporting argument? You cannot simply assume it is the same barrier. Independent of the veil, it is inarguable that the Law of Moses functioned as a kind of barrier between Jew and Gentile.
 
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Lulav

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It's not about Roman math, it's about Jewish reckoning.
A part of three days was reckoned as three days.
Part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday.
1677534934021.png

Maybe you should have taken a bit more time to read what I wrote. I addressed God's time/Jewish time. I also emphasized the time that Yeshua was speaking of, for those who wanted to debate timing.

A sign has to be fulfilled exactly else the one giving it is a false prophet.
If he would have said he would be in the grave 3 days then possibly your timing would work but that's not what he said. He used the sign of Jonah so it couldn't be argued and debated later (yet it still is). By saying 3 days AND 3 nights he is making it from a point where the meaning is 24 hours each.

He was not speaking rhetorically, symbolically, nor about spiritual light and dark, but about the sun traversing the sky three times and darkness covering Jerusalem three times during His predicted time in the grave.

The Messiah was executed at noon on Wednesday, the 14th of Nisan; He died at three o’clock.
It took time to go to Pilate and ask for the body then come back and take him down and bring him to the tomb.
He was placed in the tomb at dusk just before the 15th started.

He stayed in the tomb until shortly before sundown on the 18th,(this being the weekly Sabbath) having been in the grave for the “evening” of the 15th and 16th and 17th, and for the “day” of the 15th, 16th, and 17th.
3 full days and nights just like Jonah.

The 18th that year was First fruits when the counting of the omer started. This was always a 1st day of the week. He talked to Mary and told her not to cling to him for he hadn't arisen yet to the Father.

There are two 'arisings' at play here.

1. From the Grave, from death.
2. To Heaven to present himself as first fruits from the dead to the Father.


He is the firstfruits of the one and only resurrection to which NT apostolic teaching testifies; i.e., of all mankind.
Yes, that is what I've been trying to explain.
It's not replacement theology, it's fulfillment theology. . .the NT fulfills the OT.
I made that comment in response to what expo said:

"What's more, Jesus tomb is in a garden, evoking echoes of the garden of Eden in Genesis. The hints are clear, this is a new creation story intended to supersede the story told in Genesis."​

The real replacement theology is this replacement of the NT's testimony to Jesus resurrection before daylight on Sunday with a resurrection in the daylight of Saturday.
Just before the sun goes down it is not really considered 'daylight'.
As Jesus said there are 12 hours in a day which means there are also 12 hours in the night. That time of year near the vernal equinox when day and night are of equal length that tells us the timing.

He arose say around 5:30pm when the sun went down at 5:45 - From 5:45pm until sun up would be 12 hours later to 5:45 AM
In the New Covenant, God's Ten Commandments are summed up in one rule: love of God and neighbor as self (Ro 13:8-10).
In fulfilling that one rule, you have fulfilled all.
That's what it should be, but what you quoted doesn't say that.

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.​
Notice he left out 'Loving God' which according to Jesus it the FIRST and GREATEST commandment.

"But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb" (Lk 24:1, cf Mt 28:1).
Magdalene preceded them by a short time.
Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. John 20----

Yes, after Shabbat was over then she could go there. But he wasn't there for he had arisen before the sun went down.

It does get complicated as the synoptics don't really agree...

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
But the point is that it doesn't matter when they came because no one witnessed his resurrection. Only the Angels that testified when the women got there.
Roman time, Saturday is until midnight. . .but Jewish time, Saturday is only until sundown.
In Jewish time, the day is almost half over at daybreak,

Unless he rose in the daylight of Saturday, he rose on Sunday, Jewish time.

The first day of the week started at sundown of the seventh day of the week.
There is no NT testimony of Jesus rising on the seventh day of the week, which would be ln daylight.
See all I wrote above. I have full understanding of Jewish time as I keep it regarding Holy Days,being a Jew.

He was put in the grave just before sundown, and raised just before sundown three days/night later, Just before sundown, not really daylight.

There is no testimony of it still being the Sabbath, the end of the Sabbath, because no one was there because they were Keeping the Sabbath.

You gave Matthew 28:1 as a rebuttal but this is what it says:

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


The 'end of the Shabbat' is as the sun is going down.

Dawning toward the first day of the week means twilight, just after the sun goes down behind the horizon but there is still light in the sky but the sun cannot be seen. It is not dawning towards dawn.
 
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Lulav

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From 2 Chronicles 10:5

5 He said to them, “Return to me again in three days.” So the people departed.

Verse 12 then says:

So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, just as the king had directed, saying, “Return to me on the third day

So, as we can see, appealing to specific texts when it comes to references to time intervals is risky business indeed. In this text, "in three days", really means "on the third day".

This Biblical precedent challenges the reasoning you present above.

In any event, Ben Witherington III, Amos Professor of New Testament for Doctoral Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky and on the doctoral faculty at St. Andrews University, Scotland, has this to say on this matter:

One of the keys to interpreting the time references in the New Testament is being aware that most of the time, the time references are not precise, and we must allow the ancient author to be general when he wants to be general and more specific when he wants to be more specific. Especially when you have both sorts of references to the time span between Jesus’ death and resurrection in one book by one author, and indeed sometimes even within close proximity to each other, one should take the hint that these texts were not written according to our modern exacting expectations when it comes to time references.
You are challenging the Savior's words..

Why are you quoting another text when Jesus already gave the precedent with Jonah?
That was what he proclaimed, nothing about Isaiah here.

So why not quote 1 Sam 30?

And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs, and two clusters of raisins: and when he had eaten, his spirit came again to him: for he had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights.

You must use what Jesus said was his precedent: Jonah


Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.
And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. ~ Jonah 1:17

Matthew 12:

39-40 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 
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Clare73

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Maybe you should have taken a bit more time to read what I wrote. I addressed God's time/Jewish time. I also emphasized the time that Yeshua was speaking of, for those who wanted to debate timing.
A sign has to be fulfilled exactly else the one giving it is a false prophet.
If he would have said he would be in the grave 3 days then possibly your timing would work but that's not what he said. He used the sign of Jonah so it couldn't be argued and debated later (yet it still is). By saying 3 days AND 3 nights he is making it from a point where the meaning is 24 hours each.
That is your supposition. . .which is the tail (Jonah) wagging the dog (Jesus).
You nor anyone else knows if Jonah was in the whale for a full 72 hours, or just part of three days.

And if, according to you, Jesus' and Jonah's times must perfectly match, then we know that Jonah was in the whale for a part of three days because, as you said, Jesus is not a false prophet.
He was not speaking rhetorically, symbolically, nor about spiritual light and dark, but about the sun traversing the sky three times and darkness covering Jerusalem three times during His predicted time in the grave.
The Messiah was executed at noon on Wednesday, the 14th of Nisan; He died at three o’clock.
It took time to go to Pilate and ask for the body then come back and take him down and bring him to the tomb.
He was placed in the tomb at dusk just before the 15th started.
He stayed in the tomb until shortly before sundown on the 18th,(this being the weekly Sabbath) having been in the grave for the “evening” of the 15th and 16th and 17th, and for the “day” of the 15th, 16th, and 17th.
3 full days and nights just like Jonah.

The 18th that year was First fruits when the counting of the omer started. This was always a 1st day of the week. He talked to Mary and told her not to cling to him for he hadn't arisen yet to the Father.

There are two 'arisings' at play here.

1. From the Grave, from death.
2. To Heaven to present himself as first fruits from the dead to the Father.



Yes, that is what I've been trying to explain.

I made that comment in response to what expo said:

"What's more, Jesus tomb is in a garden, evoking echoes of the garden of Eden in Genesis. The hints are clear, this is a new creation story intended to supersede the story told in Genesis."​


Just before the sun goes down it is not really considered 'daylight'.
As Jesus said there are 12 hours in a day which means there are also 12 hours in the night. That time of year near the vernal equinox when day and night are of equal length that tells us the timing.

He arose say around 5:30pm when the sun went down at 5:45 - From 5:45pm until sun up would be 12 hours later to 5:45 AM
That's what it should be, but what you quoted doesn't say that.
Love of God and neighbor as self fulfills the whole law.
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.​
Notice he left Loving God which according to Jesus it the FIRST and GREATEST commandment.


Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. John 20----

Yes, after Shabbat was over then she could go there. But he wasn't there for he had arisen before the sun went down.

It does get complicated as the synoptics don't really agree...

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
But the point is that it doesn't matter when they came because no one witnessed his resurrection. Only the Angels that testified when the women got there.

See all I wrote above. I have full understanding of Jewish time as I keep it regarding Holy Days,being a Jew.

He was put in the grave just before sundown, and raised just before sundown three days/night later, Just before sundown, not really daylight.

There is no testimony of it still being the Sabbath, the end of the Sabbath, because no one was there because they were Keeping the Sabbath.
You gave Matthew 28:1 as a rebuttal but this is what it says:
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
The 'end of the Shabbat' is as the sun is going down.
Dawning toward the first day of the week means twilight, just after the sun goes down behind the horizon but there is still light in the sky but the sun cannot be seen.
None of which alters the fact that Jesus rose on the first day of the week.
 
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Lulav

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As Jesus said there are 12 hours in a day which means there are also 12 hours in the night. That time of year near the vernal equinox when day and night are of equal length that tells us the timing.
John 11:9 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day?

3 days X 12 = 36
3 nights X 12 = 36

Total 72 hours of day and Night
 
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Diamond7

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The Old Covenant; all of it, every single command and ordinance, was surely cancelled.
Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 
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Bob S

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Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Hi Diamond, I am a bit confused as to where you stand concerning your post. Are Israelites still under every jot and tittle of the Law? Is this what Methodists believe? Do you realize that Gentiles have never been "under the Law"? After studying 2Cor 3:6-11 what conclusion do you derive?
 
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Lulav

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Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
I've edited the OP in hopes that this isn't misread. :)


"The Old Covenant; all of it, every single command and ordinance, was surely cancelled.
That includes the

  • dietary restrictions,
  • sabbath observance,
  • sacrificial system,
  • and the 10 commandments"
NOTE:The above is a quote from someone from this forum, please don't take it as I am believing or saying this.


You can find similar words like this all over this forum, but this was a most recent declaration that brought all kinds of questions to me.
 
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Lulav

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Hi Diamond, I am a bit confused as to where you stand concerning your post. Are Israelites still under every jot and tittle of the Law? Is this what Methodists believe? Do you realize that Gentiles have never been "under the Law"? After studying 2Cor 3:6-11 what conclusion do you derive?
You do know that those words are in direct conflict with both God and his Son?

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones



Matt 19
:But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.

And his commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 2:3-6​

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Nehemiah 9:29
And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law.
Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances,
By which if a man observes them he shall live.
And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.

Eze 20:
But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned.

Lev 18:5
So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the Lord.
 
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Bob S

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You do know that those words are in direct conflict with both God and his Son?
No, I didn't know that. Please inform me. Since we all know that Gentiles have never been under the ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant and you are the expert on commandment keeping, give us some specifics on the commands we have to keep in order to gain eternal life.

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones
Yes, go on I can hardly wait for you to explain what Paul wrote after that initial statement.


Matt 19:But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Jesus was directing His words to the Jews that at the time were under the old covenant. The problem was not one of His listeners had the ability to really keep all of the commandments found in Torah and that fact is no different today.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.

And his commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 2:3-6​

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
I am so glad you found those verses from 1Jn because I also have a few for you to ponder. The verses I have for you to ponder actually explain the verses you asked me to consider. The verses that explain actually what commandments we are to keep. John tells us we are of the TRUTH if we keep His commandments. Please do not gloss over the TRUTH Lulav. It seems like you have in the past because I have pointed to these verses many times and you must have refused to consider them.

1Jn 3:19-24 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Now you need to remember that Gentiles were never commanded to observe Torah. However, all mankind is instilled with the knowledge of right and wrong, so couple that fact with believing the Son of God and loving our fellow man creates a new being filled with the Spirit passed out by Jesus to all at Pentecost.

Nehemiah 9:29
And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law.
Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances,
By which if a man observes them he shall live.
And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.

Eze 20:
But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned.

Lev 18:5
So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the Lord.
The problem was the Israelites and Gentiles that joined with the Israelites never lived up to the expectations of all the Laws found in Torah. You know the rest of the story.

Why did Jesus have to leave Heaven if salvation came by keeping the Law? Israelites were failures just as you and I are failures in keeping the commands Jesus has given us in the new covenant. We live because Jesus lives. As is written in 2Cor3 the 10 commandments WERE the ministry of death, but the Spirit gives life. The Spirit is what is glorious now. The Spirit in us is our guide to eternal life replacing the ministry of Death (the 10 commandments). Amen!
 
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expos4ever

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It is called a Mixed Multitude in Exodus - and that in Hebrew means a huge amount of those who were not Children of Israel.
I see this line of reasoning often and it is misguided. Yes, those Gentiles who were otherwise integrated into the Jewish society were indeed subject to the Law of Moses. But the vast majority of Gentiles were not.
 
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daq

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I see this line of reasoning often and it is misguided. Yes, those Gentiles who were otherwise integrated into the Jewish society were indeed subject to the Law of Moses. But the vast majority of Gentiles were not.

Paul teaches the commandments of the Master. He is not creating a new gentile religion: he is sent beyond the outer court to the nations, to call them into joining Yisrael, whosoever desires to join the people of Elohim and become circumcised by the new Minister of the Circumcision, which is of the heart even according to the Torah.
 
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expos4ever

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Paul teaches the commandments of the Master. He is not creating a new gentile religion: he is sent beyond the outer court to the nations, to call them into joining Yisrael, whosoever desires to join the people of Elohim and become circumcised by the new Minister of the Circumcision, which is of the heart even according to the Torah.
Your argument appears to be this:

- God wants the "nations" to join Israel
- Part of what it means to join Israel is to obey the Law of Moses
- Therefore we should all follow the Law of Moses

Of course, there are some legitimate challenges that can be raised, not least that even though the New Testament uses "Israel" language to the describe the "Jew + Gentile" church, the further case must be made that this new Israel is to follow the Law of Moses - there is no logical necessity that the Law of Moses remains after this union of Jew and Gentile.
 
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daq

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Your argument appears to be this:

- God wants the "nations" to join Israel
- Part of what it means to join Israel is to obey the Law of Moses
- Therefore we should all follow the Law of Moses

Of course, there are some legitimate challenges that can be raised, not least that even though the New Testament uses "Israel" language to the describe the "Jew + Gentile" church, the further case must be made that this new Israel is to follow the Law of Moses - there is no logical necessity that the Law of Moses remains after this union of Jew and Gentile.

The very fact that you show a heavy bias toward the phrase "Law of Moses" suggests from the onset that you either do not believe, or at least do not wish to admit, that the Torah is the Word of the Most High to begin with. This is extremely problematic for anyone who feigns a desire to join himself or herself to the Elohim of Yisrael through His Meshiah, the Messiah of Yisrael whom He sent to His people.

Doesn't Paul speak of this joining in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2? Of course he does. Anyone who reads Romans 11:18-22 with understanding should not imagine that the Root has nothing to do with the Living Oracles of the Torah delivered to the people of Yisrael at the mountain of Elohim, delivered through His servant Mosheh the mediator, and through the instrumentality of angels according to the scripture.

The testimony of Stephen, (full of the Holy Spirit according to the author).

Acts 7:38 ASV
38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

And the Oracles of Elohim are these same Living Oracles.

Romans 3:2 ASV
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God.

Hebrews 5:5-14 ASV
5 So Christ also glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but he that spake unto him, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee:
6 as he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,
8 though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;
10 named of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard of interpretation, seeing ye are become dull of hearing.
12 For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food.
13 For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe.
14 But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

Yerushalem of above is our mother, (covenant, Gal 4:22-31), and she is portrayed as the Tabernacle of the Torah in the passage from which Paul quotes in that discourse, (Gal 4:27, Isa 54:1-3). The idiom "milk of the Word" therefore refers to the Torah. In 1 Pet 2:2 we find the word logikos together with sincere or pure milk, and some translations render this as the sincere or pure "milk of the word", but it really means logic or logical, which derives from logos, and is associated with logion, (oracles or sayings, as in the Living Oracles of the Torah in Acts 7:38 quoted above).

1 Peter 2:2
2 ως αρτιγεννητα βρεφη το λογικον αδολον γαλα επιποθησατε ινα εν αυτω αυξηθητε

The Apostolic authors did not believe and teach what you believe and preach, and this is not from cherry picked, select passages, but from the Logos of the scripture passages that have been quoted and referenced herein and many other places. Quoting the letter while not understanding the Logos within quote-mined passages that people often cherry pick to formulate their doctrines only serves to kill, for just as Paul says, the letter kills. When we cherry pick verses and remove them from their contexts we are stripping the passages of the Logos within them so as to insert our own meaning or reasoning, (logos), into the letter which we are quoting. Not that it is wrong to post a single scripture text, but if there is going to be commentary on it, then the commentary must comply with the Logos within the overall context of the passage. I am bringing this up because it does not appear to me that you fully realize these principles.
 
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Lulav

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I see this line of reasoning often and it is misguided.
It is not a 'line of reasoning' it is a fact reported in the Torah of GOD and not once but multiple times.
Yes, those Gentiles who were otherwise integrated into the Jewish society were indeed subject to the Law of Moses. But the vast majority of Gentiles were not.

They were 'subject' if they wanted to be, to be considered to be part of the family of GOD.

The vast majority if you are speaking of all the nations, were/are pagans, idol worshipers.
 
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expos4ever

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It is not a 'line of reasoning' it is a fact reported in the Torah of GOD and not once but multiple times.
The Law of Moses was clearly given to the Jews and the Jews only - this text from Leviticus, for example, shows that the Law functioned to separate the Jew from the Gentile:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [r]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird, or by anything [s]that crawls on the ground, which I have distinguished for you as unclean. 26 So you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have singled you out from the peoples to be Mine.

While it is indeed true that Scripture speaks of all the nations being ultimately integrated into Israel, there is no logical necessity that this means that this new "Israel" is follow the Law of Moses. That is something you need to make an actual case for.
 
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