If this is True then why ...

[Bob S]

• No, I didn't know that. Please inform me.

  I gave you many passages to make my point. Sarcasm doesn't become you Bob
  You did? They must not have been reliable points.
  

  Since we all know that Gentiles have never been under the ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant and you are the expert on commandment keeping, give us some specifics on the commands we have to keep in order to gain eternal life.

Lulav wrote;

So you don't consider yourself Israel? Why then did you pick an Israeli Jew to be your Savior?

Because my Savior is the Son of God and God loves all His children. God chose to bring our Savior Jesus to be born into a Jewish family.
Funny you didn't attempt to answer my question. I would jump at the chance to help someone to know what commands
God would have us keep in order to gain eternal life.

Lulav asked;

I wonder who came up with that phrase ' under the law'?

Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Lulav wrote;
Your sarcasm at me again is unneeded and shows you need to sink to that to continue this debate?
Jesus explains very clearly in the Gospels.
Sarcasm? I thought I was paying you a compliment.

Yes, go on I can hardly wait for you to explain what Paul wrote after that initial statement.

Lulav wrote;
Are you speaking of this?
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Lulav answered, Kinda;

I can't even begin to go into all those obfuscations. He is mixing up so many things it's pathetic really.
First calling what GOD HIMSELF wrote on the tablets, HIS WORDS, a 'ministry of Death'? when they were to give life. These commandments were to raise up a holy nation to bring forth the Messiah, have you ever thought about that?

I really believe you do understand the meaning of 2Cor3:6-11, but refuse to admit it because it upsets your apple cart. Because of your preconceived beliefs, Paul introduces the real truth about the 10 commandments. They were the ministry of Death because no one could keep them and they had no power to forgive. They were Israel's temporary guide until Calvary when the law ended.

Bob S wrote;

Jesus was directing His words to the Jews that at the time were under the old covenant. The problem was not one of His listeners had the ability to really keep all of the commandments found in Torah and that fact is no different today.

Lulav answered;
Oh, there's that 'Under the old law' comment. So everything Jesus said was futile right? Why teach on the law of God and then do away with it shortly thereafter? Rather pointless wouldn't you say? Just pointless and besides that what God had handed down to those at the mountain, he being an evil god gave them things to follow, knowing full well they couldn't do it. That's like giving a 3 year old a copy of Greys Anatomy and telling him to go and be a doctor, now.
So, Paul was a liar when he wrote 2Cor3:6-11. God, because Israel broke the Sinai covenant, ended the Sinai covenant with its 613 Laws. That included the 10 commandments

I am so glad you found those verses from 1Jn because I also have a few for you to ponder. The verses I have for you to ponder actually explain the verses you asked me to consider. The verses that explain actually what commandments we are to keep. John tells us we are of the TRUTH if we keep His commandments. Please do not gloss over the TRUTH Lulav. It seems like you have in the past because I have pointed to these verses many times and you must have refused to consider them.

Lulav wrote;

Accusations again Bob? but I have to say, even when it disrupts my whole universe I have searched my whole life for Truth, and not like Pilate, I do know what it is.

Accusations? According to 1Jn3:19-24 you really don't know whati it is. You are trying to live by a covenant that ended around AD 33.

1Jn 3:19-24 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Click to expand...

Lulav wrote;
Didn't we already go over this on this thread or perhaps another?

18My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall [e]assure our hearts before Him. 20For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

22And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandmentS and do those thingS that are pleasing in His sight.
23And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Yes, we have and your answers were lame then and are still lame. Believe and Love equal two (2) commands and within those two commands if we could and would keep them there would be eternal peace on this Earth. There was not one ritual command in the old covenant that could even come close to those two new covenant commands. You cull them because of an S? Oy!

Now you need to remember that Gentiles were never commanded to observe Torah. However, all mankind is instilled with the knowledge of right and wrong, so couple that fact with believing the Son of God and loving our fellow man creates a new being filled with the Spirit passed out by Jesus to all at Pentecost.

Which means that they were never commanded to observe Shavuot.
Not to all, no Gentiles were present unless you count the Roman soldiers that might have been around.
What bearing hinges on whether or not Gentiles were in attendance? Are Gentiles restricted from receiving the Holy Spirit because they might not have been participants at Pentecost?

The problem was the Israelites and Gentiles that joined with the Israelites never lived up to the expectations of all the Laws found in Torah. You know the rest of the story. Jesus was directing His words to the Jews that at the time were under the old covenant. The problem was, not one of His listeners had the ability to really keep all of the commandments found in Torah, and that fact is no different today.

Yes, they were not perfect and neither are any Gentiles but remember it was the Gentiles that led them astray. I think if one had a choice it would be better to be a Gentile and choose to obey the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob than to be a Jew who got lead astray but the workings of Gentiles.
Hold on there Lulav, Gentiles led the Israelites astray? I am supposed to remember that? Wasn't it the Jews that were leading the foolish Galatians astray? They were teaching them they had to keep the laws of the old covenant.

Why did Jesus have to leave Heaven if salvation came by keeping the Law?

Maybe that is something you need to investigate, but I can tell you the main reason was not to come down to 'save everybody', but to put things legally to rights from where man fell and what the consequence was to the one who coerced them to. Genesis 3:15, study that and you many then understand.
Absolutely a bunch of bologna. The law could not save anyone. Salvation comes from believing in Jesus and loving others as Jesus loves us.

Israelites were failures just as you and I are failures in keeping the commands Jesus has given us in the new covenant. We live because Jesus lives. As is written in 2Cor3 the 10 commandments WERE the ministry of death, but the Spirit gives life. The Spirit is what is glorious now. The Spirit in us is our guide to eternal life replacing the ministry of Death (the 10 commandments). Amen!

Then please explain to me if they cause death why does the LORD GOD have them up in Heaven, why didn't he get rid of them when Jesus came up to heaven after the resurrection?
Maybe that is something you need to investigate. What we do know is that the Holy 10 commandments were the temporary guide for Israel and now we are guided by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as per 2Cor3:6-11. I, for one, do not try to second guess Jesus' ambassador, Paul.

 

[expos4ever]

It is illuminating to see posters directly question whether Paul wrote inspired Scripture.

I would have thought we would all agree that Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit, but apparently we do not.

A poster objects to Paul's characterization of the Law of Moses as a ministry of death. Well, I suggest there is a perfectly coherent, and Biblically defensible, explanation for this. Although Paul's argument is subtle, he argues in Romans that God gives the law so that the power of sin will be concentrated in the nation of Israel so that it can then be passed on to her representative Jesus and dealt with on the cross.

This is the counterintuitive yet comprehensible reason why the law was given with this dark purpose.

We can choose to follow the subtlety of Paul's argument, and take seriously everything he says or we can choose to say Paul does not know what he is talking about. I will go with the former.

 

[Diamond7]

"The Old Covenant; all of it, every single command and ordinance, was surely cancelled.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)

This statement is often cited by Christians to emphasize the continuity between the Old Testament (which includes the Law and the Prophets) and the New Testament (which includes the teachings and life of Jesus).

Ultimately, the interpretation of the relationship between the Old and New Covenants is a matter of theological debate and varies among different Christian traditions and denominations.

 

[expos4ever]

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)

This statement is often cited by Christians to emphasize the continuity between the Old Testament (which includes the Law and the Prophets) and the New Testament (which includes the teachings and life of Jesus).

Indeed.

But, and has been argued over and over in some of these threads, and without refutation, there is a highly plausible case that Jesus is using metaphorical language here. More specifically, there is evidence from the Old Testament, and even from non-Biblical Jewish sources, that apocalyptic end-of-the-world" language was used to invest events in the here-and-now with significance. Analogy: If I say "I will love you forever", am I intending to be taken literally.

First-century Palestinians did not have laptops or the internet, but they knew a good metaphor when they saw one.

In His next breath, Jesus says this:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [g]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

All is accomplished? Consider the dying words of Jesus:

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit

 

[Diamond7]

Jesus is using metaphorical language here.

The law is metaphorical. There is NO temple, so we cannot sacrifice animals. But we can look at what that represents. I talked to Paul about this and we are to live right before God. They could be good under the law, but we have the righteousness of Jesus through the blood. So all the more we are without excuse. David said I have done justice and righteousness in psalm 119 121. Difficult to understand when he was a man of blood and what happened with Bathsheba and her husband. Of course, Solomon was her son and he inherited the Kingdom.

 

[Diamond7]

"I will love you forever", am I intending to be taken literally.

I plan to love people forever. All the more when we get to Heaven.

 

[Diamond7]

All is accomplished? Consider the dying words of Jesus:

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit

It was finished before I was born? Jesus still has to do a finished work in us. God declares the end from the beginning. We do not begin to build until we plan it all out on paper.

 

[expos4ever]

The law is metaphorical.

I do not know what you mean here. I cannot make sense of the notion that the Law is, in any sense, metaphorical.

I talked to Paul about this and we are to live right before God.

Paul who?

 

[Diamond7]

Paul who?

Paul in the Bible. He teaches we are to live free from sin. In Romans 6:1 Paul is saying that while believers are saved by grace through faith in Christ, this does not give them a license to continue living in sin. Instead, they are called to live a new life in Christ, free from the power of sin and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live in righteousness and obedience to God.

John Wesley emphasizes the pursuit of holiness and the belief that Christians are called to live a life of moral and spiritual purity through the power of the Holy Spirit. This emerged in the 19th century as a response to a perceived lack of spiritual depth and commitment in the churches of the time, and continues to be an important strandard within many Christian denominations today.

I do not know what you mean here.

The Hasidic approach to metaphors emphasizes the power of language and imagery to connect humans with God and to facilitate spiritual growth and understanding. It involves interpreting and seeking personal relevance in metaphors, which are seen as a way for God to communicate spiritual concepts to humans in a way that we can understand.

metaphors, parables, allegories, archetypes, symbols, homilies, paradigms, and so on.

 

[Diamond7]

The Bible is a rich source of metaphor, parable, allegory, archetype, symbol, homily, paradigm, and other literary devices. These literary devices are used throughout the Bible to convey complex theological concepts, moral and ethical teachings, and important historical events in a way that is accessible and memorable to readers.

Metaphors, for example, are used throughout the Bible to help readers understand abstract concepts by using concrete language and imagery. For example, Jesus used the metaphor of a vine and branches to describe the relationship between himself and his followers in John 15:5, "I am the vine, you are the branches." This metaphor helps readers to understand the close, dependent relationship between Jesus and his followers.

Parables, on the other hand, are stories that are used to illustrate moral or spiritual truths. Jesus used parables extensively in his teaching, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), which teaches the importance of showing mercy to others.

Allegories are extended metaphors in which characters, events, and objects in a story represent abstract concepts. An example of an allegory in the Bible is the story of the Good Shepherd in John 10:1-18, in which Jesus is portrayed as the shepherd who cares for his sheep.

Archetypes and symbols are also used extensively in the Bible. For example, the story of Noah's Ark is often interpreted as a symbol of salvation and redemption, while the serpent in the Garden of Eden is seen as an archetype of temptation and deception.

Homilies and paradigms are also found in the Bible. A homily is a sermon or speech that explains and applies the teachings of Scripture, while a paradigm is a framework or model for understanding and interpreting the Bible.

Overall, the use of these literary devices in the Bible serves to make its teachings more engaging, memorable, and accessible to readers of all ages and backgrounds.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul in the Bible.

You talked to Paul from Bible? Prithee, explain.

 

[Diamond7]

You talked to Paul from Bible? Prithee, explain.

I may get in trouble for telling that story on here. But I only took maybe 12 or 15 seconds of his time. Not everyone has access to all the areas in Heaven. But there is an entrance area that everyone enters into. My mom and my sister are there because they like to have gatherings to get people together. My son and my dad are off in other areas. What we would consider to be cities here.

When I got saved it was as if the roof had blown off of the building. Later on I learned that was because a portal had been opened so people in Heaven could see that I was saved.

 

[HIM]

Are you speaking of this?

But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? ​

I can't even begin to go into all those obfuscations. He is mixing up so many things it's pathetic really.
First calling what GOD HIMSELF wrote on the tablets, HIS WORDS, a 'ministry of Death'? when they were to give life. These commandments were to raise up a holy nation to bring forth the Messiah, have you ever thought about that?

The people chose the Tables of Stone, parchment and being instructed by man. That Ministration was not what God intended for His people. The people chose it.

Exod 20:18 And all the people are seeing the voices, and the flames, and the sound of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and the people see, and move, and stand far off,
Exod 20:19 and say to Moses, “Speak with us, and we hear, and do not let God speak with us, lest we die.”

 

[Lulav]

No, I didn't know that. Please inform me. Since we all know that Gentiles have never been under the ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant and you are the expert on commandment keeping, give us some specifics on the commands we have to keep in order to gain eternal life.

Sure, if you'll accept it.

Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come (YESHUA), and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.



Jesus quoted from that as well.

Mark 11:17
And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer?

 

[Bob S]

Sure, if you'll accept it.

Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come (YESHUA), and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.



Jesus quoted from that as well.

Mark 11:17
And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer?

Bob S said:
No, I didn't know that. Please inform me. Since we all know that Gentiles have never been under the ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant and you are the expert on commandment keeping, give us some specifics on the commands we have to keep in order to gain eternal life.

Do I take it from your answer to my question revolves around the commands of keeping Sabbath? And yet I do not see one word that would indicate eternal life if kept. Another fact is that no one, except Jesus, has ever accomplished all that is required to keep from polluting Sabbath. Is it any wonder Israel had so many warnings about keeping the day Holy?

An Israelite could go clear through life without stealing or committing adultery, but not thinking their own thoughts on the Holy day is a different story. If keeping the Sabbath is the criteria for entering the golden gates, Heaven certainly has and will have a sparce population.

 

[Lulav]

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[trophy33]

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The context is Israel - only remnant was saved.

Regarding other nations, John saw in vision so many saved people that nobody was able to count them.

 

[Lulav]

Bob S said:
No, I didn't know that. Please inform me. Since we all know that Gentiles have never been under the ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant and you are the expert on commandment keeping, give us some specifics on the commands we have to keep in order to gain eternal life.

Do I take it from your answer to my question revolves around the commands of keeping Sabbath? And yet I do not see one word that would indicate eternal life if kept. Another fact is that no one, except Jesus, has ever accomplished all that is required to keep from polluting Sabbath. Is it any wonder Israel had so many warnings about keeping the day Holy?

An Israelite could go clear through life without stealing or committing adultery, but not thinking their own thoughts on the Holy day is a different story. If keeping the Sabbath is the criteria for entering the golden gates, Heaven certainly has and will have a sparce population.

Bob S said:
No, I didn't know that. Please inform me. Since we all know that Gentiles have never been under the ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant and you are the expert on commandment keeping, give us some specifics on the commands we have to keep in order to gain eternal life.

Do I take it from your answer to my question revolves around the commands of keeping Sabbath? And yet I do not see one word that would indicate eternal life if kept. Another fact is that no one, except Jesus, has ever accomplished all that is required to keep from polluting Sabbath. Is it any wonder Israel had so many warnings about keeping the day Holy?

An Israelite could go clear through life without stealing or committing adultery, but not thinking their own thoughts on the Holy day is a different story. If keeping the Sabbath is the criteria for entering the golden gates, Heaven certainly has and will have a sparce population.

That is a special blessing not part of the Torah instructions.

I don't understand how you can be so adamantly against keeping the one day of the week the LORD GOD sanctified and set apart to show the world who his people are?

The week has not been done away with, creation has not been done away with so why should the Seventh day?
It is a pointer as to who the real Creator is. And those who love God are privileged to uphold it.

It is also a marker not just for people but also of the land. Are you aware that Israel's temple was destroyed, and the people taken captivity because they didn't keep the Sabbaths? Sounds pretty important to God that his people do.

 

[Bob S]

That is a special blessing not part of the Torah instructions.

I don't think I understand. Is eternal life the special blessing?
I don't understand how you can be so adamantly against keeping the one day of the week the LORD GOD sanctified and set apart to show the world who his people are?

The week has not been done away with, creation has not been done away with so why should the Seventh day?

Because the old covenant with all its laws have been superseded by the new and better covenant that has no Sabbath requirement. See Col 2:16-17, Eph 2:10-15, 2Cor3:6-11, Gal 3:19 and Matt 5:16-17. Jesus is the Creator and redeemer, He is our reminder of creation.

It is a pointer as to who the real Creator is. And those who love God are privileged to uphold it.

Sabbath WAS THE pointer. Now we have Jesus as our reminder and our Rest.

It is also a marker not just for people but also of the land. Are you aware that Israel's temple was destroyed, and the people taken captivity because they didn't keep the Sabbaths? Sounds pretty important to God that his people do.

I am pretty sure the Israelites kept the Sabbath as well or better than those that think it is still a requirement do today. May I remind you that the standard for keeping Sabbath has never changed. Are you able to meet the requirements of Is 58:13? Are you able to go 24 hours without thinking of worldly thoughts? If not, and I don't believe you are able, then you who believe you are under the Law are subject to: James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. I thank Jesus for not putting that burden on my back.

 

[Lulav]

I don't think I understand. Is eternal life the special blessing?


Because the old covenant with all its laws have been superseded by the new and better covenant that has no Sabbath requirement. See Col 2:16-17, Eph 2:10-15, 2Cor3:6-11, Gal 3:19 and Matt 5:16-17. Jesus is the Creator and redeemer, He is our reminder of creation.

It's not about you, it's about the rest of the world. Believing in Jesus doesn't show the world anything. But stopping your work on the seventh day shows who the creator is God/Jesus. The seventh day in many languages is Sabbath.
That even moreso than the change in the worlds calendar from When Jesus was born shows these things.

Sabbath WAS THE pointer. Now we have Jesus as our reminder and our Rest.

It's not a reminder. The remembering is to keep it. Resting in Jesus is not the same thing as resting on the Day he made Holy and set apart at Creation week.

I am pretty sure the Israelites kept the Sabbath as well or better than those that think it is still a requirement do today. May I remind you that the standard for keeping Sabbath has never changed. Are you able to meet the requirements of Is 58:13? Are you able to go 24 hours without thinking of worldly thoughts? If not, and I don't believe you are able, then you who believe you are under the Law are subject to: James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. I thank Jesus for not putting that burden on my back.

Isaiah is not the Torah. Like I said before it's a special blessing to those who keep it that way.

13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

And no, I don't go 24 hours - I sleep 8-9 of those and like a Shabbat nap occasionally too.