I need help from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!

[aiki]

I am skeptical that hell is real, but the fact that it might be real is what worries me. There is too much on the line to be wrong here. I think my heightened belief in it is from where I grew up in a Christian home.

Interesting. And conflicted. Are you saying that what skepticism you've adopted concerning hell is weak?

Paul was allowed a lot more evidence than we have now, so there wasn't any "magic" involved in his belief when compared to ours. (I'm referring to his direct experience with God.)

But you can have a direct experience of God yourself. I do every day. So do millions of other followers of Christ.

I think everything has a truth and sure way of being (contrary to relativism), but there's no good way to choose an expert or side on any matter.

But you see the issue isn't just one of evidence and argument. If God really exists and wants to relate with us as the Bible says, then we can know Him personally, quite apart from any philosophical arguments or empirical evidence in favour of His existence. What you really need is for God to reveal Himself to you as He promises He will do to all who search for Him and draw near to Him with their whole heart. This is the quickest, surest way I know of to cut through all the controversy and debate about God and get to the truth of Him.

You mentioned that the supernatural occurrence has already happened, and it was in the resurrection of Christ. The idea to study the historicity of Christ's resurrection is very attractive to me now, and I could see myself getting very involved with it, but I know when I feel I am finished, there'll be some sort of doubt that I missed some piece of its puzzle or didn't read the totality of what is available...not sure how to escape that. I do also know that some in history (such as Schweitzer) looked at the historical evidence and came away not believing in the resurrection.

If you've already determined to doubt regardless of the evidence for the resurrection you may encounter, I can't say that you're really being honest about how you're approaching the evidence. In any case, if you do want to investigate, here is a place online to check out:

www.coldcasechristianity.com

In the past, I do somewhat remember noticing lots of weird "coincidences" when I was trying to follow Jesus. How do I know my mind wasn't playing tricks on me and causing me to notice what I was already biased to? If we begin to look for some awareness in daily life, we have a far higher chance of finding it than if we weren't looking. Isn't this a byproduct of merely increasing our attention and being more sensitive/present?

Is that what you think is going on in the story I told you of God's providential care of my brother? I don't.

Some here believe that it's God job to bring us to him - not the other way around. Of course, there are verses that support both sides.

Really? I know my Bible pretty well and it no where indicates that we come to God apart from His drawing work in us. Ephesians 2:1 describes all those who are not saved as "dead in trespasses and sins." How can a dead man make any move toward anything? He can't; he's dead. Likewise, those who are spiritually dead cannot make any move toward God. They can't; they're dead.

There are a lot of (seemingly?) contradictory verses. I've no idea how a layman is supposed to sort through these issues.

A layperson is not by virtue of their being a layperson exempted from careful and prolonged study of God's word. There is no shortcut to understanding God's truth. The layperson is to be as rigorous as possible in their scrutiny of the Bible and as they are, God leads them into His truth.

And why does a layman even have to come to textual experts for help? The Gospel is supposed to be easy enough for a child to understand.

Why wouldn't you take advantage of the work already done by textual experts as much as possible? Do you have the time and finances to make Bible study your vocation? If not, then you might do well to apply to those who have had the wherewithal to be professional students of God's word for some help in understanding it.

The Gospel is easy enough for a child to understand, yes, but it is also deep enough to provoke a lifetime of study and analysis. This is one of the many remarkable things about Gods' truth. The Bible contains both "milk" for babies and meat for those who are "of full age."

 

[Shaney77]

Well, Yahweh solves your problem then.
Not a worry in the world, nothing (except yourself) can prevent you from finding out the Truth.

I can actively see myself stopping progress!

 

[Shaney77]

...pssstt!!! It's called 'hermeneutics,' but it's not biblical hermeneutics I'm referring to but rather the broader, more general type which encompasses psychological perception, epistemology, and interpretation.

And if you'll go to my own personal 'Information' page, scroll to nearly the bottom, you'll find a very short video there by a scholar who briefly lays out what is entailed in the scope of the hermeneutic endeavor.

Cool! I am excited to check that out, and it's good to know the official name. It's always been an interest.

 

[Shaney77]

Yep, not understanding that sometimes things we may not like, are for a purpose/for our own good is reason enough for some to walk away from it. As a kid we may not have understood punishment or other things our parents implemented.

When I think about it, I supposes it's matter of relevance. Our parents may have spanked/grounded in order to get us under control, but the things that needed doing to get the whole world under control, a different story altogether, and could amount to brutal in our minds. Some things we won't understand till the time comes, just as we may not have til we became adults, concerning our parents doings.

Yeah, I'm sure it's complex infinitely beyond what I can understand.

 

[Shaney77]

Interesting. And conflicted. Are you saying that what skepticism you've adopted concerning hell is weak?



But you can have a direct experience of God yourself. I do every day. So do millions of other followers of Christ.



But you see the issue isn't just one of evidence and argument. If God really exists and wants to relate with us as the Bible says, then we can know Him personally, quite apart from any philosophical arguments or empirical evidence in favour of His existence. What you really need is for God to reveal Himself to you as He promises He will do to all who search for Him and draw near to Him with their whole heart. This is the quickest, surest way I know of to cut through all the controversy and debate about God and get to the truth of Him.



If you've already determined to doubt regardless of the evidence for the resurrection you may encounter, I can't say that you're really being honest about how you're approaching the evidence. In any case, if you do want to investigate, here is a place online to check out:

www.coldcasechristianity.com



Is that what you think is going on in the story I told you of God's providential care of my brother? I don't.



Really? I know my Bible pretty well and it no where indicates that we come to God apart from His drawing work in us. Ephesians 2:1 describes all those who are not saved as "dead in trespasses and sins." How can a dead man make any move toward anything? He can't; he's dead. Likewise, those who are spiritually dead cannot make any move toward God. They can't; they're dead.



A layperson is not by virtue of their being a layperson exempted from careful and prolonged study of God's word. There is no shortcut to understanding God's truth. The layperson is to be as rigorous as possible in their scrutiny of the Bible and as they are, God leads them into His truth.



Why wouldn't you take advantage of the work already done by textual experts as much as possible? Do you have the time and finances to make Bible study your vocation? If not, then you might do well to apply to those who have had the wherewithal to be professional students of God's word for some help in understanding it.

The Gospel is easy enough for a child to understand, yes, but it is also deep enough to provoke a lifetime of study and analysis. This is one of the many remarkable things about Gods' truth. The Bible contains both "milk" for babies and meat for those who are "of full age."

If I may ask, can you elaborate on what you mean by today's followers being able to directly experience God? Is it by way of what would normally be thought of as a wild coincidence? I think some examples here might help me. The story about your brother would be relevant here, right?

YES, I 100% agree with you that the best and easiest way to come to God should be apart from evidences and arguments. I connect deeply with this bit. You'd say that it's done by simply praying and reading? What else should I know? I keep thinking that maybe my whole heart isn't in it or I am not passionate enough.

 

[FireDragon76]

You can't make yourself believe, obviously. If you are interested in God and religion, just "fake it till you make it". Start "doing the motions" of what religious people do. Do the steps. That was Blaise Pascale's advice.

You might also want to explore the faith communities here and find what different churches believe and what they practice.

Unless something challenges your basic materialistic worldview, it can be difficult to go from agnostic to Christian. For me, that experience was Buddhism. It forced me to realize that spiritual experiences were commonplace and not mental illness, as we often treat them today, and that the experience of what I would later recognize in what Rudolf Otto called "the Numinous" in his book The Idea of the Holy, was real, the most real thing I had ever experienced. But Buddhism's weakness was that it did not feel authentic. I'm Anglo, not Asian, and community is an important part of being a spiritual human being. Humanistic western Buddhism is more self-help than deep spirituality, and I wanted something more authentic.

So I hoped for something better in the end. I encountered theologians and pastors like Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr. and I wanted to understand what made them tick, why would such good, noble people follow such a vulgar faith in a god, something Buddhism had taught me was misguided? It lead me to realize that Christianity was not just an infantile fantasy about an "angry sky daddy", it could also be a force for good in the world: it had a unique articulation of human diginty, a weaker point in Buddhism as I delved more into the complicity of Buddhists in Japan during WWII. And I read about the influence of Christians on Buddhist Modernism and "Socially-Engaged Buddhists". And that lead me to have real curiosity about going back to church.

 

[razzelflabben]

You're right; the heart would definitely be more powerful and able to force more actions.

and it is the heart that allows us to believe unto salvation...which is the real point.

 

[razzelflabben]

If I may ask, can you elaborate on what you mean by today's followers being able to directly experience God? Is it by way of what would normally be thought of as a wild coincidence? I think some examples here might help me. The story about your brother would be relevant here, right?

YES, I 100% agree with you that the best and easiest way to come to God should be apart from evidences and arguments. I connect deeply with this bit. You'd say that it's done by simply praying and reading? What else should I know? I keep thinking that maybe my whole heart isn't in it or I am not passionate enough.

you mentioned personal stories might help...my personal story about how I came to Christ might help your understanding of praying and reading as the last of this post talks...if it doesn't help answering your question I apologize in advance.

When I was about 6 my life was so out of control I was trying to figure out the best way to kill myself. (Long story not important to the point I want to make) One night as I was trying to figure out how to kill myself I got to thinking about the world and how it couldn't just have happened spontaneously. If it couldn't just happen spontaneously there had to be a creator. If there was a creator He/She/It had to be greater than anything created and if that was true, all I needed was to become one with that Creator in order to survive my situation. So that night I prayed to a God I didn't know that if I was right, would the Creator become so much a part of me that it was impossible to tell where He/She/It began and I ended. Something changed in me that night that I couldn't explain and had no understanding of but even my family noticed a change. The change brought about an understanding of the Living God of the Bible. IOW's through the indwelling HS was true to His word and taught me about Himself. Soon my entire family was professing Christ to be Lord. Scripture tells us that if we seek God He will be found. You see, that night I sought God even though I didn't know it was God I was seeking. I was seeking the truth of what is the Creator. In that seeking He revealed Himself to me. The interesting thing is that any number of "gods" could have revealed themselves to me in fact, I had nightly demonic visitations for years but the only God that revealed Himself to me was the living God of the bible, just like He said He would do....simple child like faith, praying to know truth and expecting truth to be found. To put an end to this part of my story (lots more to the story) my situation didn't really change all that much but when I took the time to look back years later I discovered that that kid that should not have survived had actually thrived...

Well hope that helps the last paragraph questions.

 

[aiki]

If I may ask, can you elaborate on what you mean by today's followers being able to directly experience God?

Of course you may ask. Doing so is sort of the point of this subforum. God acts in my life in several ways: He convicts me of sin; He illuminates my understanding; He comforts me in times of pain and fear; He transforms my character and desires; He provides for my needs; He guides my life choices; He gives me strength to serve Him, and so on.

Is it by way of what would normally be thought of as a wild coincidence? I think some examples here might help me. The story about your brother would be relevant here, right?

Wild coincidences aren't the common way in which God interacts with me. Let me give you a very personal example of His work in me: Early on in my marriage my wife and I had come to something of an impasse with each other. I saw things in her I didn't much like and vice versa. We'd got to a place where I was not going to flex for the shortcomings I thought she had and she wasn't going to cut my shortcomings any slack, either. It was an ugly scene. I couldn't see any way forward and so I prayed to God for help (which I should have done before we even got started down the road of finger-pointing). To my great discomfort and surprise immediately a sense of conviction about my own pride and selfishness settled upon me. I was terribly angry and for many long minutes fought against the idea that the way out of the situation was for me to acknowledge my wrong, to acknowledge that what my wife was saying about me was true. It was an awfully bitter pill to swallow! I wasn't the bad guy she said I was! I wasn't the problem, she was! Oh, the conflict that went on within me! Every fiber of my being rose up in self-righteousness and self-justification against the idea that I was in any way at fault. But the Holy Spirit was relentless and inflexible in his conviction of me. Now, I knew it was God's Spirit convicting me because the thought of my own guiltiness was the farthest thing from my mind until I prayed to God for help. I knew it was God's Spirit convicting me because deep within me there was certainty that if I submitted to the conviction I was feeling I would find my way out of the bitter situation I'd got into with my wife.

Although I was feeling God's conviction, I was by no means eager to respond to it. In fact, I was so caught up in my sense of self-righteousness I just couldn't submit to what God was showing me about myself. I prayed again that He would enable me to respond as I should to His conviction. And God answered. Over the next ten minutes or so my heart began to soften and see my wife, not as the enemy, but as one I had treated very badly. It wasn't me doing this. I couldn't. But God could. And He did. I went finally to my wife, broken by the knowledge of my own sinfulness, and confessed to her my pride and selfishness and asked her for her forgiveness. As soon as I did this my wife burst into tears and admitted that she, too, had been guilty of the same. We ended up in each others arms, keenly aware of God's supernatural intervention in our marriage.

There was no "wild coincidence" in this experience of God's convicting and healing hand. And, more often than not, it is in these subtle, very personal, and often mundane ways and circumstances that God interacts with me.

You'd say that it's done by simply praying and reading? What else should I know? I keep thinking that maybe my whole heart isn't in it or I am not passionate enough.

When I left home to attend university some thirty-plus years ago, I left the insulation of my largely Christian social sphere and moved into a community that was severely anti-theist. It greatly challenged my weak faith. I realized that I had treated God as merely a religious proposition, a distant and irrelevant idea that the intelligentsia around me had universally rejected. I quickly came to a cross-roads of belief where I prayed earnestly to God: "If you're truly there, you must be more than a religious idea, you must show up in a real, tangible way in my life." Now, I thought God would appear in a golden glow, rabbits and butterflies heralding his arrival, and I would be forever changed. Didn't happen. At all. Instead, God took me through the darkest and most painful two years of my life! He stripped away from me all the things with which I had replaced Him in my life; all the things I'd become dependent upon apart from Him He showed me to be empty and futile; He put me right on the edge of the abyss and, by making me truly desperate, pressed me to call out to Him and to seek Him as I never had before. SCARY! Very SCARY!

My desperation drove me toward the only thing I knew might help me: the Bible. I began to read it voraciously, not as a religious exercise, but as a dying man searching for life. I began to pray constantly to God for refuge and strength from the darkness that had crowded upon me. I really got serious with Him; no more play-acting the Christian life. And God met me at the edge of the abyss. He didn't take me from it, though, for some time. He used the jeopardy of the precipice to force me to institute spiritual disciplines and develop new habits of thought and behaviour. Most of all, He showed me that I couldn't really do without Him, that He loved me, and that I could trust Him even unto death.

I tell you all this, not to discourage you from pursuing God, but to warn you that how you think God will answer a prayer for revelation of Himself may not be as you expect it to be. God's not a trick pony; He's an untamed lion. He's not going to meet you with half-measures; He's not going to enter your life as anything other than the God that He is. He rules the universe and He will rule you, too. Is this what you want? God knows and He will respond accordingly.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yeah, I'm sure it's complex infinitely beyond what I can understand.

Not necessarily, and I worded it as such. Some I understand and some I don't...some may understand completely, and some very little.

 

[Thisis Thend]

This is a truly lovely message. Thank you so much for writing it for me! I understand and connect well with a lot you said. Can I ask you a little more about what you mean by "look within"? You're saying I am to read the Bible, or do you mean that I merely need to continually pray?

You have called yourself a ‘soft agnostic.’ And so, you struggle…, groping in the dark to label, define, or grab hold of what it is that you cannot fully see. Trying to understand yourself, what you believe, what you are. But I assure you, you are only struggling to define the quality or the ‘degree’ of your belief. You are filled with doubt. But ALL carry doubt. Mat 21:21. And so, you are already a believer, no different than any who would now call themselves the same. If you were not a believer, you would not be here, searching for answers. And so again I say, take heart little one! There is a childlike innocence in your words. A desire not to offend but please. And with that comes an open mind. A nonjudgmental desire to understand. To receive instruction. Luke 18:17.

I would not advocate, that any forsake the Scriptures. But I see that you already know enough of what has been placed there. You wonder if I am saying you should continually pray. Why are you confused, wondering which way to turn? Why don’t you see? Your One True Teacher is alive! For He has risen from the dead! John 2:22. So then, are you asking me; “Well, where is He? Where did He go? John 16:5. Why would you ask? He has already told you where went. John 16:16. And if He has gone to be with the Father, are you then asking; “Where is the Father?” Again, why would you ask? He has already told you where the Father is. Luke 11:2. So do you then ask me; “Where is Heaven? Where is the Kingdom”? If so, and again, why do you ask? He already told you; “The Kingdom of Heaven, is within you.” Luke 17:21.

So, your instruction is not hard to understand. Simply turn to Him. Turn inward and examine yourself, examine your thoughts. Seek Him out. Turn and face the darkness, those clouds of confusion that you carry, and ask Him to make Himself more and more visible to you. I tell you the truth. He is right there, inside you! Waiting to speak with you, though He already speaks to you, but you do not yet see that it is Him that is doing so. For it is there, within you, that you are alone and together with Him. And He has already told you; “Ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you.” Mat 7:7. And His Word, is the Word of Truth, so believe Him little one! John 8:46. And the things He has to tell you, are not limited to the very few things He did and spoke, which happened to get recorded in the Scriptures. What He has to teach you, what He has to reveal to you, will fill you to overflowing. John 21:25. For again, He is alive not dead. He is not limited to words on a page. So He has told us, that He will bring us the Father. To teach and remind us, of all those things. John 14:26.

And so, I am only attempting to repeat to you, what He has taught me. And that is; “You cannot not study or ‘reason’ your way to God.” So that if reasoning, awareness, or discernment is given to you, it will come by Him, and only Him. So, do not be like the many. But hear and receive what I say. Mat 13:14. And the things I now write to you, are but a few simple words. A few grains of sand, in the ocean that is Jesus Christ. Amen.

And so, He has told you, as He has told us all. But yet, when I repeat it to you, you turn to me – a mere man – for further teaching and instruction. So that you continue to grope in the darkness. So that still you do not see the truth. Turning to me or any man, is the very reason that you find yourself lost in confusion! Mat 23:10. So that if you continue not listening to what He has taught, in that day when you stand before God, you will be without excuse. John 15:22. You will not be able to say to the God of Heaven and earth: ‘Why do you condemn me to damnation?! It is not my fault!’ And do not judge me little one, thinking that my words mean that I have taken offence to your actions. Mat 7:2. I have not! Rather; I am filled with joy, knowing I am blessed that He gives me to bring these words, meant to clarify. But neither shall I work in vain. Being made to repeat myself to any a thousand times a thousand times.

 

[Hawkins]

Unfortunately, I am not allowed permission on the link you provided.

But how can I use faith to find God?

The following is the nature of what this reality is. Our reality is a reality of human witnessing, not a reality of evidence.

======
The so-called evidence is a delusion based on which the twisted atheistic world view is built. Humans don't need evidence to reach a truth, it's like 99% of the situations how 99% humans reach a truth but without any evidence. Evidence is a delusion.

Humans are basically creatures of the present, we are blocked from accessing the past and we are blocked from accessing the future. We (especially the atheists) are trained and educated to believe otherwise.

What evidence do you have for what you yourself just did as recent as yesterday? You don't have, nor do the 7 billion humans on earth. The all 7 billion humans on earth don't have the evidence of their own deeds and speeches yesterday, the day before yesterday, a month ago, a year ago. That's how humans are blocked from reaching the past. We can't rely on evidence to get to the past simply because virtually, as a big picture, we have none!

So how will I be able to know what you did just yesterday? The more fundamental way for humans to get to the past is by putting faith in credible accounts of witnessing. If a credible eye-witness has written about what you did, and for us to believe with faith, then we can know what you did. That could possibly the only way we can reach your past and that's how this reality works. Evidence is an exaggerated term, or rather a delusion for you to think that it's crucial for humans to reach a truth, while it's not.

That's how the truth of past can be reached, under the big picture that the past is basically blocked from human access. Now how about science. Science basically works the same way. You don't need any evidence before you know for a fact that black holes exist, nor do 99% out of 7 billion humans. The point is why so. Why that out of the 100% humans who know for a fact that black holes exist but without any evidence ever presented to them? The answer is, humans don't rely on evidence to reach a truth. They can't.

The most fundamental way for humans to reach a truth of any kind is by putting faith in a "middle man" as the "eye witness". In the case of black holes, we rely on putting faith in the "middle man/eye witness" which is our scientists to get to its truth. What we choose to trust is the reliability and credibility of the scientists instead of evidence. That's the way how we reach what could possibly happen in the past, as well as how we get to a scientific truth.

Now how about the future? How can we approach a truth could possibly happen in the future. By using the atheistic world view then we can't. Because the atheistic world view demands evidence, it sound as if it's evidence which leads a truth in the past or in science thus they demand the same for the future. Their world view however is based on the delusion of the availability of evidence. Satan's trick here is to try to persuade you through the atheistic world view that humans need to rely on evidence to reach a truth. By using this tactics it is thus impossible for humans to reach the future at all, directly or indirectly.

Satan cast a delusion for atheists to believe mistakenly that humans need evidence to reach a truth. Since there won't be any evidence for the future (you may still find some for the past, you have none for the future), thus it means that you don't need to believe anything said about the future. Satan is trying to deny the more common way of how humans can reach a truth even in the future, though being blocked from accessing it directly.

As mentioned above, humans basically rely on witnessing to reach a truth in the past and in science. In the same manner, we can reach the future. This is the only way humans can possibly reach the future without direct access. We can reach by putting faith in the "middle man". The "middle man" in this case is the direct eye-witnesses of God. God knows the future and He conveys the truth to His direct eye-witnesses and for the rest of humans to put faith in them as the "middle man" to reach such a truth.


This is the only way how the incapable humans, who have no direct access to either the past or the future, can possibly get to a truth in the future, which Satan is trying hard to deny through atheism.

 

[Shaney77]

You can't make yourself believe, obviously. If you are interested in God and religion, just "fake it till you make it". Start "doing the motions" of what religious people do. Do the steps. That was Blaise Pascale's advice.

You might also want to explore the faith communities here and find what different churches believe and what they practice.

Unless something challenges your basic materialistic worldview, it can be difficult to go from agnostic to Christian. For me, that experience was Buddhism. It forced me to realize that spiritual experiences were commonplace and not mental illness, as we often treat them today, and that the experience of what I would later recognize in what Rudolf Otto called "the Numinous" in his book The Idea of the Holy, was real, the most real thing I had ever experienced. But Buddhism's weakness was that it did not feel authentic. I'm Anglo, not Asian, and community is an important part of being a spiritual human being. Humanistic western Buddhism is more self-help than deep spirituality, and I wanted something more authentic.

So I hoped for something better in the end. I encountered theologians and pastors like Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr. and I wanted to understand what made them tick, why would such good, noble people follow such a vulgar faith in a god, something Buddhism had taught me was misguided? It lead me to realize that Christianity was not just an infantile fantasy about an "angry sky daddy", it could also be a force for good in the world: it had a unique articulation of human diginty, a weaker point in Buddhism as I delved more into the complicity of Buddhists in Japan during WWII. And I read about the influence of Christians on Buddhist Modernism and "Socially-Engaged Buddhists". And that lead me to have real curiosity about going back to church.

Yes, you're so right about it being difficult to move from agnosticism to spirituality. Speaking of Buddhism, I AM pretty interested in mindfulness and ego death, which is sort of related I think. I've thought about how LSD or some similar drug might help me to have a nice experience, but I'd never do it unless it was in a clinical setting.

 

[Shaney77]

you mentioned personal stories might help...my personal story about how I came to Christ might help your understanding of praying and reading as the last of this post talks...if it doesn't help answering your question I apologize in advance.

When I was about 6 my life was so out of control I was trying to figure out the best way to kill myself. (Long story not important to the point I want to make) One night as I was trying to figure out how to kill myself I got to thinking about the world and how it couldn't just have happened spontaneously. If it couldn't just happen spontaneously there had to be a creator. If there was a creator He/She/It had to be greater than anything created and if that was true, all I needed was to become one with that Creator in order to survive my situation. So that night I prayed to a God I didn't know that if I was right, would the Creator become so much a part of me that it was impossible to tell where He/She/It began and I ended. Something changed in me that night that I couldn't explain and had no understanding of but even my family noticed a change. The change brought about an understanding of the Living God of the Bible. IOW's through the indwelling HS was true to His word and taught me about Himself. Soon my entire family was professing Christ to be Lord. Scripture tells us that if we seek God He will be found. You see, that night I sought God even though I didn't know it was God I was seeking. I was seeking the truth of what is the Creator. In that seeking He revealed Himself to me. The interesting thing is that any number of "gods" could have revealed themselves to me in fact, I had nightly demonic visitations for years but the only God that revealed Himself to me was the living God of the bible, just like He said He would do....simple child like faith, praying to know truth and expecting truth to be found. To put an end to this part of my story (lots more to the story) my situation didn't really change all that much but when I took the time to look back years later I discovered that that kid that should not have survived had actually thrived...

Well hope that helps the last paragraph questions.

I really like that story! It's super interesting how you could have been contacted by anything (and indeed had demonic visits), but in the end, Christ prevailed.

 

[Shaney77]

Of course you may ask. Doing so is sort of the point of this subforum. God acts in my life in several ways: He convicts me of sin; He illuminates my understanding; He comforts me in times of pain and fear; He transforms my character and desires; He provides for my needs; He guides my life choices; He gives me strength to serve Him, and so on.



Wild coincidences aren't the common way in which God interacts with me. Let me give you a very personal example of His work in me: Early on in my marriage my wife and I had come to something of an impasse with each other. I saw things in her I didn't much like and vice versa. We'd got to a place where I was not going to flex for the shortcomings I thought she had and she wasn't going to cut my shortcomings any slack, either. It was an ugly scene. I couldn't see any way forward and so I prayed to God for help (which I should have done before we even got started down the road of finger-pointing). To my great discomfort and surprise immediately a sense of conviction about my own pride and selfishness settled upon me. I was terribly angry and for many long minutes fought against the idea that the way out of the situation was for me to acknowledge my wrong, to acknowledge that what my wife was saying about me was true. It was an awfully bitter pill to swallow! I wasn't the bad guy she said I was! I wasn't the problem, she was! Oh, the conflict that went on within me! Every fiber of my being rose up in self-righteousness and self-justification against the idea that I was in any way at fault. But the Holy Spirit was relentless and inflexible in his conviction of me. Now, I knew it was God's Spirit convicting me because the thought of my own guiltiness was the farthest thing from my mind until I prayed to God for help. I knew it was God's Spirit convicting me because deep within me there was certainty that if I submitted to the conviction I was feeling I would find my way out of the bitter situation I'd got into with my wife.

Although I was feeling God's conviction, I was by no means eager to respond to it. In fact, I was so caught up in my sense of self-righteousness I just couldn't submit to what God was showing me about myself. I prayed again that He would enable me to respond as I should to His conviction. And God answered. Over the next ten minutes or so my heart began to soften and see my wife, not as the enemy, but as one I had treated very badly. It wasn't me doing this. I couldn't. But God could. And He did. I went finally to my wife, broken by the knowledge of my own sinfulness, and confessed to her my pride and selfishness and asked her for her forgiveness. As soon as I did this my wife broke into tears and admitted that she, too, had been guilty of the same. We ended up in each others arms, keenly aware of God's supernatural intervention in our marriage.

There was no "wild coincidence" in this experience of God's convicting and healing hand. And, more often than not, it is in these subtle, very personal, and often mundane ways and circumstances that God interacts with me.



When I left home to attend university some thirty-plus years ago, I left the insulation of my largely Christian social sphere and moved into a community that was severely anti-theist. It greatly challenged my weak faith. I realized that I had treated God as merely a religious proposition, a distant and irrelevant idea that the intelligentsia around me had universally rejected. I quickly came to a cross-roads of belief where I prayed earnestly to God: "If you're truly there, you must be more than a religious idea, you must show up in a real, tangible way in my life." Now, I thought God would appear in a golden glow, rabbits and butterflies heralding his arrival, and I would be forever changed. Didn't happen. At all. Instead, God took me through the darkest and most painful two years of my life! He stripped away from me all the things with which I had replaced Him in my life; all the things I'd become dependent upon apart from Him He showed me to be empty and futile; He put me right on the edge of the abyss and, by making me truly desperate, pressed me to call out to Him and to seek Him as I never had before. SCARY! Very SCARY!

My desperation drove me toward the only thing I knew might help me: the Bible. I began to read it voraciously, not as a religious exercise, but as a dying man searching for life. I began to pray constantly to God for refuge and strength from the darkness that had crowded upon me. I really got serious with Him; no more play-acting the Christian life. And God met me at the edge of the abyss. He didn't take me from it, though, for some time. He used the jeopardy of the precipice to force me to institute spiritual disciplines and develop new habits of thought and behaviour. Most of all, He showed me that I couldn't really do without Him, that He loved me, and that I could trust Him even unto death.

I tell you all this, not to discourage you from pursuing God, but to warn you that how you think God will answer a prayer for revelation of Himself may not be as you expect it to be. God's not a trick pony; He's an untamed lion. He's not going to meet you with half-measures; He's not going to enter your life as anything other than the God that He is. He rules the universe and He will rule you, too. Is this what you want? God knows and He will respond accordingly.

The story about your wife is really, really beautiful.

Yes, I...I already have a feeling that if I make any sort of move, God will take over my life, and things will get a lot more difficult (in a way). I'm sure that's how it should be, but it rails against our innate selfishness, which is so strong in me.

 

[Shaney77]

You have called yourself a ‘soft agnostic.’ And so, you struggle…, groping in the dark to label, define, or grab hold of what it is that you cannot fully see. Trying to understand yourself, what you believe, what you are. But I assure you, you are only struggling to define the quality or the ‘degree’ of your belief. You are filled with doubt. But ALL carry doubt. Mat 21:21. And so, you are already a believer, no different than any who would now call themselves the same. If you were not a believer, you would not be here, searching for answers. And so again I say, take heart little one! There is a childlike innocence in your words. A desire not to offend but please. And with that comes an open mind. A nonjudgmental desire to understand. To receive instruction. Luke 18:17.

I would not advocate, that any forsake the Scriptures. But I see that you already know enough of what has been placed there. You wonder if I am saying you should continually pray. Why are you confused, wondering which way to turn? Why don’t you see? Your One True Teacher is alive! For He has risen from the dead! John 2:22. So then, are you asking me; “Well, where is He? Where did He go? John 16:5. Why would you ask? He has already told you where went. John 16:16. And if He has gone to be with the Father, are you then asking; “Where is the Father?” Again, why would you ask? He has already told you where the Father is. Luke 11:2. So do you then ask me; “Where is Heaven? Where is the Kingdom”? If so, and again, why do you ask? He already told you; “The Kingdom of Heaven, is within you.” Luke 17:21.

So, your instruction is not hard to understand. Simply turn to Him. Turn inward and examine yourself, examine your thoughts. Seek Him out. Turn and face the darkness, those clouds of confusion that you carry, and ask Him to make Himself more and more visible to you. I tell you the truth. He is right there, inside you! Waiting to speak with you, though He already speaks to you, but you do not yet see that it is Him that is doing so. For it is there, within you, that you are alone and together with Him. And He has already told you; “Ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you.” Mat 7:7. And His Word, is the Word of Truth, so believe Him little one! John 8:46. And the things He has to tell you, are not limited to the very few things He did and spoke, which happened to get recorded in the Scriptures. What He has to teach you, what He has to reveal to you, will fill you to overflowing. John 21:25. For again, He is alive not dead. He is not limited to words on a page. So He has told us, that He will bring us the Father. To teach and remind us, of all those things. John 14:26.

And so, I am only attempting to repeat to you, what He has taught me. And that is; “You cannot not study or ‘reason’ your way to God.” So that if reasoning, awareness, or discernment is given to you, it will come by Him, and only Him. So, do not be like the many. But hear and receive what I say. Mat 13:14. And the things I now write to you, are but a few simple words. A few grains of sand, in the ocean that is Jesus Christ. Amen.

And so, He has told you, as He has told us all. But yet, when I repeat it to you, you turn to me – a mere man – for further teaching and instruction. So that you continue to grope in the darkness. So that still you do not see the truth. Turning to me or any man, is the very reason that you find yourself lost in confusion! Mat 23:10. So that if you continue not listening to what He has taught, in that day when you stand before God, you will be without excuse. John 15:22. You will not be able to say to the God of Heaven and earth: ‘Why do you condemn me to damnation?! It is not my fault!’ And do not judge me little one, thinking that my words mean that I have taken offence to your actions. Mat 7:2. I have not! Rather; I am filled with joy, knowing I am blessed that He gives me to bring these words, meant to clarify. But neither shall I work in vain. Being made to repeat myself to any a thousand times a thousand times.

Thank you SO much for the wonderful information here.

 

[Shaney77]

The following is the nature of what this reality is. Our reality is a reality of human witnessing, not a reality of evidence.

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The so-called evidence is a delusion based on which the twisted atheistic world view is built. Humans don't need evidence to reach a truth, it's like 99% of the situations how 99% humans reach a truth but without any evidence. Evidence is a delusion.

Humans are basically creatures of the present, we are blocked from accessing the past and we are blocked from accessing the future. We (especially the atheists) are trained and educated to believe otherwise.

What evidence do you have for what you yourself just did as recent as yesterday? You don't have, nor do the 7 billion humans on earth. The all 7 billion humans on earth don't have the evidence of their own deeds and speeches yesterday, the day before yesterday, a month ago, a year ago. That's how humans are blocked from reaching the past. We can't rely on evidence to get to the past simply because virtually, as a big picture, we have none!

So how will I be able to know what you did just yesterday? The more fundamental way for humans to get to the past is by putting faith in credible accounts of witnessing. If a credible eye-witness has written about what you did, and for us to believe with faith, then we can know what you did. That could possibly the only way we can reach your past and that's how this reality works. Evidence is an exaggerated term, or rather a delusion for you to think that it's crucial for humans to reach a truth, while it's not.

That's how the truth of past can be reached, under the big picture that the past is basically blocked from human access. Now how about science. Science basically works the same way. You don't need any evidence before you know for a fact that black holes exist, nor do 99% out of 7 billion humans. The point is why so. Why that out of the 100% humans who know for a fact that black holes exist but without any evidence ever presented to them? The answer is, humans don't rely on evidence to reach a truth. They can't.

The most fundamental way for humans to reach a truth of any kind is by putting faith in a "middle man" as the "eye witness". In the case of black holes, we rely on putting faith in the "middle man/eye witness" which is our scientists to get to its truth. What we choose to trust is the reliability and credibility of the scientists instead of evidence. That's the way how we reach what could possibly happen in the past, as well as how we get to a scientific truth.

Now how about the future? How can we approach a truth could possibly happen in the future. By using the atheistic world view then we can't. Because the atheistic world view demands evidence, it sound as if it's evidence which leads a truth in the past or in science thus they demand the same for the future. Their world view however is based on the delusion of the availability of evidence. Satan's trick here is to try to persuade you through the atheistic world view that humans need to rely on evidence to reach a truth. By using this tactics it is thus impossible for humans to reach the future at all, directly or indirectly.

Satan cast a delusion for atheists to believe mistakenly that humans need evidence to reach a truth. Since there won't be any evidence for the future (you may still find some for the past, you have none for the future), thus it means that you don't need to believe anything said about the future. Satan is trying to deny the more common way of how humans can reach a truth even in the future, though being blocked from accessing it directly.

As mentioned above, humans basically rely on witnessing to reach a truth in the past and in science. In the same manner, we can reach the future. This is the only way humans can possibly reach the future without direct access. We can reach by putting faith in the "middle man". The "middle man" in this case is the direct eye-witnesses of God. God knows the future and He conveys the truth to His direct eye-witnesses and for the rest of humans to put faith in them as the "middle man" to reach such a truth.


This is the only way how the incapable humans, who have no direct access to either the past or the future, can possibly get to a truth in the future, which Satan is trying hard to deny through atheism.

Thank you for posting that for me!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I guess I am open to the idea of Christ, but because I focus mostly on the "worst," "pessimistic" stuff, I think of hell a lot more than I think of Christ.

The Bible says that fear can be the beginning of wisdom if that fear brings you to God, because the reward wth God is so awesome.

But over time, after walking with God that fear would lessen much more. Fear not is found 365 times in the Bible. God does not hold us because of fear, we are His because of His great love for us and our great love for Him.

Proverbs 9:10
…9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,

Philippians 4:6-7
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

1 John 4:18
“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”

 

[Shaney77]

The Bible says that fear can be the beginning of wisdom if that fear brings you to God, because the reward wth God is so awesome.

But over time, after walking with God that fear would lessen much more. Fear not is found 365 times in the Bible. God does not hold us because of fear, we are His because of His great love for us and our great love for Him.

Proverbs 9:10
…9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,

Philippians 4:6-7
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

1 John 4:18
“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”

Yes, I do get the feeling that Jesus came to ultimately bring about peace rather than worry. Still yet, He does warn about how serious and important hell is, so...it just won't leave my mind. Obviously the proper solution is to get right with God. I'll need to tackle a few mental issues first I suppose. Thank you for commenting!

 

[Thisis Thend]

Yes, I do get the feeling that Jesus came to ultimately bring about peace rather than worry. Still yet, He does warn about how serious and important hell is, so...it just won't leave my mind. Obviously the proper solution is to get right with God. I'll need to tackle a few mental issues first I suppose. Thank you for commenting!

For myself, there are some things I believe, and some things I know. In other words, I do not look at the clear blue sky and say in myself; "I believe it's blue." And so, the things I know, come without doubt. And many of the things I know, go against the conventional teaching of today's Christianity. In other words, I do not base my understanding on the teachings of the many. I do not say to myself; "Well, I guess if millions of people believe XYZ, then it must be true, so I had better also believe it. If that were the case, i might just as well be a Buddhist, or a Muslim. Again, as I said above, there is One who is my Teacher. And here is one thing I know. You do not get to God - or come to Christ - without first standing in fear of God. So, I know that any who have come to their belief without first fearing Him, carry a false faith. The God they worship is not the God of the Bible. They worship a false God. For they are looking at a goat, and calling it a sheep. Mat 7:23. And too; you cannot get to the middle, by skipping over the beginning. You cannot get to the middle of the true path - if you have started down the wrong path - a false path.

I think you would do well, to try and stand back away from yourself (as I now stand), so that you might see what is happening to you - or within you. Look at your words. You say; "Fear of hell will not leave my mind." And then you say you have a desire to; "Get right with God." And so, as I have already told you, you have been set down on the true path. And too; I have told you that you do not even realize that Christ (who is within you) is speaking to you. And you need only look to the Scriptures, to find the evidence of this. Luke 12:5. And I tell you the truth; He is not simply speaking it. He is commanding it!!! He is causing it to well up and blossom into your awareness! You are not 'deciding' or 'choosing' this. John 15:16. But rather, by the will of the Father, He is first drawing you. John 6:44. And so again I say; "Take heart little one!"