I need help from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!

[Radagast]

The tampering and errors in textual transmission of the Gospels has not in any way compromised it's content, so we would probably be splitting hairs on this.

I think we agree here.

Nor does the extended ending in Mark or the woman caught in adultery as you pointed out alter anything at all for the person who doesn't know that those sections are not authentic.

According to Augustine, the "woman caught in adultery" section was authentic, but some people removed it.

 

[Dirk1540]

According to Augustine, the "woman caught in adultery" section was authentic, but some people removed it.

What you say is more informative, if anything I should say disputed instead of proven as inauthentic.

 

[Dirk1540]

Oh, you are referring to the whole Biblical idea of God's word being...kind of...encrypted to the unbeliever? Or how secularists can't quite comprehend the things of God? Or how God's Word is nonsensical to the wise and learned? I may have it all wrong.

I think I'd lean more toward the personal Jesus side of things if I could get past the intellectual hurdles.

Yes, or at least I think we're talking about the same thing, I'd probably have to explain it more...if I can it's hard to explain. I'm actually someone who was like memory foam when it came to believing that it was true VS believing it wasn't true. I constantly gave new life to my intellectual doubts, I would believe, then like memory foam I'd reform into the skeptic me again.

So this spiritual discernment concept is hard to explain. Conversion to believing that Christianity is true was not a straight shot for me and it was very long and doubt filled. However the long road gave me an interesting view of spiritual discernment. Let's give my intellectual objections the analogy of noise level, let's call my objections 'Loud' objections. I carried these loud objections with me all over the place, and picked Christian brains if I ran into any, and usually at the end of the conversation the volume of my objections didn't get any louder or quieter, UNLESS a good intellectual point was presented.

However, for argument's sake let's say that your volume knob of intellectual objections is set at 10, well mine was more like 7 because I did have a few things that I found impressive about Christianity (along with the objections). So ok, if you wanted to tweak my intellectual volume knob I wanted to hear something half decent! And my volume knob did get tweaked at times. If someone REALLY made me think the music might even get turned down to a 5.

So this was my thing. I was a Doubting Thomas and I picked brains. And if a half descent point was made I would feel a sort of slight reduction in the loudness of my objections. But again I was like memory foam...give it 2 weeks and I was back at 7.

Now here's where it gets intellectually strange. There is a backstory to this that meditation on Jesus and/or reading the Gospels brought about for me a natural high that existed with no other experience of thought, nothing but meditation on Jesus could produce this natural high for me, this 'Jesus Feeling.' This is kind of like how being in love is an awesome natural high feeling, but it is completely distinct from the awesome natural high feeling you get being around a baby. Both are awesome feelings, but totally different. Well likewise this 'Jesus Feeling' is a natural high that is completely distinct to any other great feeling that I've had in life.

I actually used to use the 'Jesus Feeling' on purpose sometimes when I didn't even feel like 'Going Religious' but I was simply very stressed and I really needed a feel good fix (however it did have the ability to pull me in a keep me for awhile). Ok back to the intellectual strangeness...this 'Jesus Feeling' I got from Jesus meditation or Gospel reading (which pretty much naturally brought on Jesus meditation all by itself as I would read the Gospels) would actually muffle the loudness of my intellectual objections, and the volume knob all the sudden found itself at 1 or 2 for absolutely no logical reason. I would literally sometimes make a confused face and be like, "Huh?? I'm pretty sure I believe now!! Um, yeah I do totally believe now!!"

But the intellectual side of me was puzzled as to why I now suddenly believed...yet my intellectual side (even though it was asking the question) wasn't jumping up and down in protest anymore like it does when the volume is on 7.

But being the hard headed block of memory foam that I was I pulled myself out of those states of belief all the time, this went on for years, I was a seesaw believer. Several times I would sort of try to philosophize with a friend of mine about how this made any sense. How was it that my intellectual objections could get lowered down to a 1 or 2 by doing something that had no intellectual content to it whatsoever??? Then, how could I pull myself out of it...and no longer relate to being in a state of "Volume Knob at 1" anymore, when I was literally just in that state of mind a mere 2 days ago!!?? Lol it really made no logical sense. Nevermind the fact that the entire pursuit for me was an intellectual one!! It was like there were 2 gauges inside of me not just one (gauge #1 the intellectual gauge). And the 2nd gauge was proving to be more powerful.

So I would say that 'Spiritual Discernment' for me is this (logically) bizarre phenomenon where Jesus can significantly muffle the volume of my intellectual objections without a single intellectual point being made. It's almost as if these 'Jesus Feelings' are this invisible blanket of comfort that Jesus places over my body, BUT attached to it is also a head piece that slips over my intellectual doubts. Lol again it is really hard to explain.

I think a guy like me is extremely rare though. People don't tend to seesaw around like I did (I think). Check out C.S. Lewis' conversion story. His path was an intellectual journey. He tells this story about how strange it was that he had been questioning Christianity for awhile...and he found himself on a pleasant drive to the zoo (not in the middle of some intellectual exchange), and then he says that he can't explain it but when the drive started he was not a Christian, but when he reached the zoo he was a Christian. That's probably more in line with how a normal person converts, unlike me lol.

 

[Ancient of Days]

I don't believe there is a hell! That idea was probably put in as a deterrent! Our loving God would not conceive such a place. I do believe there could be a place of further learning, but not a hell in the worldly thinking of things

Keep on with that line of thinking and you will find out about it the hard way..
Maybe you should open up the bible once in a while. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

 

[razzelflabben]

To answer your question, I think it would be nice to have a relationship with my creator. There's an intuitive pull towards that. And I do know that I am extremely immoral. However, I do question my willingness to change. I am incredibly lazy... Depression probably is the fault here. Apathy?

the very desire you have to have a relationship with your creator is evidence He is calling you...all you need to do is seek Him.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

By saying "things happening," I suppose I mean small natural actions taking place that are seemingly coincidental and such a large amount stacked up that it must be God. These seemingly coincidental occurrences would be in line with my prayers. I don't mean anything extravagant really.

Ok. That's understandable. But I tend to think that God intends for us to live ordinary, maybe even peaceful lives, and we shouldn't be looking for phenomena that will somehow act as 'signs' for God's existence or to the effect that He's "really and truly" working in our favor. That kind of focus seems to be a displacement of our attention from where God would like it to be. From what W. Bingham Hunter says in his book, The God Who Hears, "Prayer is a means for God to give us what He wants" (p. 12), and this is something I think reflects the thought patterns within Scripture. Unfortunately, more often than not, we're concerned with what 'we' want in life and what 'we' want from our prayers and not with what God purposes for our lives.

I think it's normal that we all would like to have some indication from God that "He's there and cares," but the direct and obvious expression of that doesn't seem to be something Scripture states will be a reality for most of God's people. At best, direct revelation is for but a tiny minority of people who God places on a special mission, many times at the cost of their very lives.

The reason I asked for people interested in both philosophy and theology is because the so-called conundrum is involved with both disciplines: theology has to do with God revealing himself to me, while philosophy has to do with the reasons why I don't trust external evidences (such as natural theology). The things I've studied in those disciplines include social epistemology (layman-expert problem), Christian pluralism, religious ambiguity, problem of evil, proofs of God, God's hiddenness, and religious diversity.

Obviously, you've had quite an introduction to things "philosophical." Did you come by this at college or on your own?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I read it in a book about Pascal. I believe Tom Morris wrote it. I do hear a lot that avoiding sin can't be done on our own. It's a commonly stated belief that I've come to appreciate since I could never seem avoid sin in my early years. As for its truth, I have no idea. I'm not aware of the relevant verses on this matter.

No problem. I was just asking. I know who Tom Morris is, too, but I read Pascal directly (in his Pensees).

As to the issue of sin, I'm going to have to say that I think God initiates nudges through our conscience to show us the moral direction He'd like for us to go. But then it's up to us to come to a place each day where we in fact shoulder the load and say, "Not my will, but Yours be done, Lord!" Of course, that's much easier thought and said than done.

In essence, I think if we look at the overall contexts of the Bible, we'll see that God expects us to volunteer our efforts in following after Him, despite what some hyper-charismatic voices might tell us should be the case otherwise. God is not interested in being a puppet-master, nor is He interested in necessarily making it all "easy" for us; however, I'm pretty sure He still wants us to receive help from Christian brothers and sisters to shoulder our burdens along the way.

 

[harko]

Keep on with that line of thinking and you will find out about it the hard way..
Maybe you should open up the bible once in a while. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

There was a post on here about a priest saying there was no hell etc I am still very young in Christ and wanting to learn! Maybe I shouldn't believe everything I hear! If I am wrong then God knows I'm sorry I don't mean any harm. I was a sinner but I do believe even though I don't know much about the bible, I am saved. Sorry if anything I have said misleads anyone.

 

[Ancient of Days]

"Confess your sins amongst each other" God bless you for having a humble and repentitive heart!
"I don't know much about the bible" As a Christian it is your duty to know everything about Gods word. You need to read it daily Jesus said " Eat my flesh and drink my blood" Which means to study the scriptures diligently. Do you have a bible? KJV preferably...

 

[harko]

"Confess your sins amongst each other" God bless you for having a humble and repentitive heart!
"I don't know much about the bible" As a Christian it is your duty to know everything about Gods word. You need to read it daily Jesus said " Eat my flesh and drink my blood" Which means to study the scriptures diligently. Do you have a bible? KJV preferably...

I am using online versions. I have read a lot of the bible in my younger days but I know I was half hearted and egotistic which led me to further sin. I do take it seriously now knowing how my nature has been, only recently though. I will read every day now with a fresh mind . Just been reading Romans

 

[Ancient of Days]

Awesome! Not sure if you know of this one but its the one I use when I am online.
ROMANS CHAPTER 1 KJV

 

[harko]

Awesome! Not sure if you know of this one but its the one I use when I am online.
ROMANS CHAPTER 1 KJV

Nice 1 yeah I can access the KJV Thanks for support

 

[Hawkins]

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

Evidence is an introduced delusion through education. Humans rely on faith to get to a truth, not evidence, disregarding what kind of truth it is. This is specially true for future occurrence. The only way we can reach the future, together with most of the past, today with most of science, is through faith!

You are in doubt because you are given a twisted world through secular education.

You can take a look at my post in another forum,
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/help-i-am-becoming-an-atheist.8038214/page-2#post-72043660

 

[Shaney77]

Hi, there; Hebrews chapter 11 - all about the principle of faith that God rewards - is an excellent guide to the subject you have broached.

Thank you for the information!

 

[Shaney77]

The sermon on the mount is pretty in places,but how about those warning verses about hatred and lust? Jesus threw them in there to show the utter impossibility of reaching Gods true level of “righteousness” by law-keeping.you wisely said you were a sinner,but until we see ourselves as “lost” sinners,we are living in a fool’s paradise. We are sinners who need a Saviour.....that is the starting point of Christianity.that is why I wanted you to read Romans first two chapters and the Sermon on the Mound.i did not recommend them because they were “pretty”...... lol......pray that God will convict your heart that you need a Savior......if you get to the point of conviction by the Holy Spirit where you can cry out like the publican did.....Lord,have mercy on me a sinner...God will ha ve mercy on you and you will be saved. Rom10:13—“anybody that asks to be saved WILL be saved” good works will follow the Salvation experience.Don’t put the cart before the horse.when somebody tells you Jesus Saves— BUT— . Run , don’t walk away! Good luck and may God bless

Oh! Hahaha, I'm sorry. I was focusing on the pretty parts! Intellectually I know that I am wretched, but...I guess I like how...life is now? I have felt extremely convicted before during sermons, and it made me want to change my ways, but some sort of apathy has almost taken over these days. I guess I am so used to sin that it doesn't affect me like it did before?

 

[Shaney77]

Greetings, and welcome to CF, @Shaney77. May you find godly encouragement, good fellowship, and engaging discussion here.

There is no magic in God. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, and must be understood spiritually-- not philosophically or even theologically for that matter (John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 2:14,
Acts 4:13). If you desire to come to faith in God, simply humble your heart and ask Him to draw you by His Spirit (Matthew 18:3).

Thank you so much for the kinds message! So your advice is for me to pray that God will draw me in? That's all I should do? I am trying to find a game plan through everyone's responses.

 

[Shaney77]

Romans 1:20: For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.



"Exploring Christianity" is the obvious place.

I don't wish to argue against scripture, but I don't see how anything is obvious here. The world looks extremely hectic and chancy!

 

[Shaney77]

Evidence is an introduced delusion through education. Humans rely on faith to get to a truth, not evidence, disregarding what kind of truth it is. This is specially true for future occurrence. The only way we can reach the future, together with most of the past, today with most of science, is through faith!

You are in doubt because you are given a twisted world through secular education.

You can take a look at my post in another forum,
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/help-i-am-becoming-an-atheist.8038214/page-2#post-72043660

Unfortunately, I am not allowed permission on the link you provided.

But how can I use faith to find God?

 

[Shaney77]

let's talk about happiness...if you are looking for it, you apparently haven't found it in the world, right? So, what would happiness look like? The bible talks about joy which many people confuse with happiness...what is happiness? to you.

Happiness, at this point, might just be some sort of peace that everything will eventually be OK.

 

[Shaney77]

Newbie,
If I understand you correctly, you say that you are in crisis, because nothing short of a miracle would convince you of the existence of any God, or perhaps, the God of the Bible. But I assure you, that even a miracle would not convince you. John 10: 25,26. The Bible teaches that only God can bring you to a spiritual awakening, a decision of true faith. John 6:44. And with that faith, will come the answers your heart desires. Luke 11:9. And so, you will find that I have come to tell you that one tenant of conventional Christian wisdom is a lie. You do not 'choose for Christ,' but rather; He chooses you. John 15:16. But take heart little one! I ask you, why are you even concerned about it? Do you not realize that there is a multitude (atheist, agnostic, and Christian), who are not concerned? Not focused as you are? Not in the spiritual dilemma that you find yourself in? Why are you not among them; walking through your existence without this concern? I see from your words, that you are confused, anxious, and frustrated and the like - seeing no hope for answers. But look and look again. What is the root of your concern? I tell you the truth; it is fear of God! And so, you have already been picked up, and placed on the path. Pro 1:7, 9:10. But if you desire to continue walking, then do not look to any man for answers. Do not turn to forums, or to preachers, or teachers, or any who consider themselves wise and blessed. Your One True Teacher is already with you! Look within. It is there you will find Him, waiting for you. Waiting with soap and water in hand. Waiting to show you the way. Mat 23:10.

This is a truly lovely message. Thank you so much for writing it for me! I understand and connect well with a lot you said. Can I ask you a little more about what you mean by "look within"? You're saying I am to read the Bible, or do you mean that I merely need to continually pray?