I need help from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!

[Shaney77]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

 

[1an]

I believe Jesus. What he taught, what he did and what happened to him are enough to convince me of God.

And no, I am not getting into any debates.

 

[harko]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

I don't believe there is a hell! That idea was probably put in as a deterrent! Our loving God would not conceive such a place. I do believe there could be a place of further learning, but not a hell in the worldly thinking of things

 

[HereIStand]

Welcome, @Shaney77. I am interested in both theology and philosophy, but I probably don't qualify as well versed. My belief is that God has granted us a supernatural occurrence in the resurrection of Christ. For an exhaustive study of this, try N.T. Wright's book The Resurrection of the Son of God.

We know from secular history (in Tacitus) that Christ lived and was crucified. His body was never found. That Christ was resurrected is the most plausible explanation of what happened.

The story is told of a young Frenchman approaching the statesman Talleyrand. The young man had established a new religion during the time of the French Revolution. Yet people were not drawn to it. He asked what he could do to make his religion more attractive. "My dear fellow," replied Talleyrand, "my suggestion would be to get yourself crucified and rise again the third day." Christ's place in history is so absolute that to conceive of anyone else taking it is absurd. His resurrection is why we believe.

 

[RC1970]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

Welcome to CF. You may want to post this topic in a different place, as this forum is for introductions only.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

The belief that saves us is a belief of the heart not the mind. You talk in this post about a belief of the mind. A belief of the heart is a determination, a covenant, a conscious decision to give God all that you are and seek Him with all that you hope to ever be. When we give this to God He does something supernatural within us that is really hard to deny or dismiss for we become new, restored, reconciled in a way that only faith/belief can do.

 

[Halbhh]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

You can test what Christ said, and get observational results, and see for yourself.

I was an agnostic, and wanted to test His 'ideas' as I thought of them, and see if they worked (worked better than alternatives).

Here is one of His instructions on how to live life:

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

You can test this, literally, doing it with total strangers that live near you.

And find out what happens.

The competing alternative is to just pick a couple of friends instead, and not love your neighbors, and see if that is better.

Since I had already loved some friends, I already knew what that was like -- great until you move or they move, or something like that, such as they get married with kids and very busy, etc.

So I had the one way already tested.

I set out to test His instruction in comparison: to actually love people I am near (such as routinely every day or every week), even though most of them begin as total strangers.

So, with real openness, not just defensive alienation, but true open emotional risk -- treating them with love, even though they were a stranger; this can be hard to do and feel risky -- I went literally next door, and met the neighbors, 2 neighbors, both of whom had been total strangers before that time.

My result for my test was that both became friends and both really benefited me a lot, in unexpected ways, so that my life became better than it had been.

So....that made me curious to test more of what Jesus of Nazareth said on how to live. More things can be tested.

They are testable. -- "Forgive....seventy times seven" (forgive over and over; find out if that makes you feel better and stronger and happier); "Love your enemy" (<- the most radical of all); and more.

The results were often truly surprising.

In time, I began to wonder that perhaps everything He said could be true, even all.

 

[Shaney77]

I believe Jesus. What he taught, what he did and what happened to him are enough to convince me of God.

And no, I am not getting into any debates.

I'm not really looking for a debate here. I'm pretty firm in my beliefs, but new ideas on my thoughts could serve to help.

 

[Shaney77]

I don't believe there is a hell! That idea was probably put in as a deterrent! Our loving God would not conceive such a place. I do believe there could be a place of further learning, but not a hell in the worldly thinking of things

I've came across this line of thinking before. I dearly hope you're correct!

 

[HereIStand]

I've came across this line of thinking before. I dearly hope you're correct!

That would be a false hope, based on the teachings and authority of Christ.

 

[Shaney77]

Welcome, @Shaney77. I am interested in both theology and philosophy, but I probably don't qualify as well versed. My belief is that God has granted us a supernatural occurrence in the resurrection of Christ. For an exhaustive study of this, try N.T. Wright's book The Resurrection of the Son of God.

We know from secular history (in Tacitus) that Christ lived and was crucified. His body was never found. That Christ was resurrected is the most plausible explanation of what happened.

The story is told of a young Frenchman approaching the statesman Talleyrand. The young man had established a new religion during the time of the French Revolution. Yet people were not drawn to it. He asked what he could do to make his religion more attractive. "My dear fellow," replied Talleyrand, "my suggestion would be to get yourself crucified and rise again the third day." Christ's place in history is so absolute that to conceive of anyone else taking it is absurd. His resurrection is why we believe.

Ah, I've come to know N.T. as being super respected as...a historian, right? The book you mentioned is an examination of historical documents?

 

[Shaney77]

Welcome to CF. You may want to post this topic in a different place, as this forum is for introductions only.

I figured it might not be too proper of a place for this, but I wanted committed Christians to give input as well, and this seemed like the only area where they'd stop in. I'm not allowed to post in the non-Christian places.

 

[Shaney77]

The belief that saves us is a belief of the heart not the mind. You talk in this post about a belief of the mind. A belief of the heart is a determination, a covenant, a conscious decision to give God all that you are and seek Him with all that you hope to ever be. When we give this to God He does something supernatural within us that is really hard to deny or dismiss for we become new, restored, reconciled in a way that only faith/belief can do.

Saving faith is not intellectual in nature but is only from the heart?

Yes, hmm... I'd openly say that I'm pretty selfish and not so much a lover or seeker of the truth. I haven't been awakened enough for that. The main motivation has always been to escape hell. How am I to get to a place where I genuinely want to see God for God?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Welcome to the forums. No unbeliever could find a reason to fear hell. If one has a fear of hell( threatened by it) it must be that one has some sort of belief that hell might exist.

 

[HereIStand]

Ah, I've come to know N.T. as being super respected as...a historian, right? The book you mentioned is an examination of historical documents?

It is. As I recall, he examines pagan ideas about life after death first, such as those in the Iliad. Then he examines Jewish ideas about life after death, such as those in Old Testament and those in the Apocrypha. Then finally, he examines the New Testament and contrast the Christian idea of the resurrection of Christ with pagan and Jewish ideas of a resurrection. It's a great book.

 

[Shaney77]

You can test what Christ said, and get observational results, and see for yourself.

I was an agnostic, and wanted to test His 'ideas' as I thought of them, and see if they worked (worked better than alternatives).

Here is one of His instructions on how to live life:

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

You can test this, literally, doing it with total strangers that live near you.

And find out what happens.

The competing alternative is to just pick a couple of friends instead, and not love your neighbors, and see if that is better.

Since I had already loved some friends, I already knew what that was like -- great until you move or they move, or something like that, such as they get married with kids and very busy, etc.

So I had the one way already tested.

I set out to test His instruction in comparison: to actually love people I am near (such as routinely every day or every week), even though most of them begin as total strangers.

So, with real openness, not just defensive alienation, but true open emotional risk -- treating them with love, even though they were a stranger; this can be hard to do and feel risky -- I went literally next door, and met the neighbors, 2 neighbors, both of whom had been total strangers before that time.

My result for my test was that both became friends and both really benefited me a lot, in unexpected ways, so that my life became better than it had been.

So....that made me curious to test more of what Jesus of Nazareth said on how to live. More things can be tested.

They are testable. -- "Forgive....seventy times seven" (forgive over and over; find out if that makes you feel better and stronger and happier); "Love your enemy" (<- the most radical of all); and more.

The results were often truly surprising.

I really like your approach here!

Back when I was younger, I tried to live for Christ, but it always felt so burdensome... There was all of this difficult "stuff" I felt he was telling me to do. For instance, I always had intense urges to share His word with strangers, but I always chickened out for fear of humiliation. Eventually I got very overwhelmed with all of the stuff that Christ might want me to do. The phrase "losing your life for Christ" is a very relevant deal here... If you tried to avoid sinning, your life would be completely gone. In my case, earlier in life, it meant that I was miserable. If I didn't do what I knew was right, in all circumstances, it was sin for me. Anyone who continually sins is not of God, and if you love God, you don't continue sinning - you'll know the elect by their good works.

Gosh, I am off on a rant. So test Jesus' words in my own life and see how I fare.

 

[Shaney77]

That would be a false hope, based on the teachings and authority of Christ.

I do tend to believe that Jesus taught about a hell he believed in.

 

[Shaney77]

Welcome to the forums. No unbeliever could find a reason to fear hell. If one has a fear of hell( threatened by it) it must be that one has some sort of belief that hell might exist.

Yes, as an agnostic, I am open to lots of different beliefs. "Maybe that is true" seems to be a dominant thought process. Christianity is much closer to my heart, though, since I grew up with Christian parents.

 

[razzelflabben]

Saving faith is not intellectual in nature but is only from the heart?

Yes, hmm... I'd openly say that I'm pretty selfish and not so much a lover or seeker of the truth. I haven't been awakened enough for that. The main motivation has always been to escape hell. How am I to get to a place where I genuinely want to see God for God?

If you don't want to know truth I don't know...truth is important to everything we do. WE can as someone else said "test" for God. I personally believed unto salvation because I was looking for the power I needed to survive and even thrive in an environment meant to kill me. We are all looking for something different that only God can provide...let me ask you what you are looking for?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Yes, as an agnostic, I am open to lots of different beliefs. "Maybe that is true" seems to be a dominant thought process. Christianity is much closer to my heart, though, since I grew up with Christian parents.

Why is it you can find it within yourself to have some sort of belief in hell but not some sort of belief in Christ?