I really like your prayer there. I guess....the main issue would be for me to remember that I need to say a prayer like that over and over? It usually takes a good few prayers of the same kind, eh?
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I need help from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!
- Thread starter Shaney77
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Atheism is definitely a form of trust too, yes. I don't seem myself as being a militant agnostic. Rather, I say I am "soft" and an open seeker. My position is skepticism because I have trouble seeing a way to move forward with such an important decision. Based on responses here, I should seek God and pray for Him to help me find what I need to.
When it comes to philosophical design arguments, I place the atheist philosophers educational and intellectual authority far above my own, and I feel I must succumb to his expert opinion on the matter. Christian philosophers come along and "push back" at the atheist's opinion on design arguments, but at that point, all I see is two experts disagreeing, and I assume the matter must be too complex for either to know the real truth.
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I am not so sure. What perplexes me is that the design debate has been going on for many hundreds of years, and it seems no progress is ever made. Some convincingly argue that philosophy itself has never made any real progress.
Mostly, my mind was taken over by those that champion the existence of religious ambiguity. It seems to be SO true. How can a layman like myself wrestle with the design argument if professional philosophers can't come to an agreement on its explanatory power?
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Christians don’t follow Philosophers even if they are Christian.
God is higher than mankind, if that is one’s belief. Anyone’s philosophy has little to do with my faith.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
When I came to Christ I had no idea who or what I was coming to...there is a point to this story.
I was about 6 years old and my life was so out of control that I was looking for a way to kill myself. One night I figured that this world couldn't just happen, there had to be some kind of creator. If a creator then that creator would not create something or someone bigger than He/She/It. If nothing is bigger all I need to survive was to become one with that creator. That night I prayed that if I was right, then might that creator become so much a part of me that it is impossible to know where He/She/It began and I ended.
Bottom line, I was seeking God and didn't even realize it. It didn't take long for God to reveal to me Himself in some very dynamic and some not so dynamic ways. Scripture says that God will reveal Himself to all who seek Him. Jeremiah 29:13
There is something that is missing in your life that only He can fill up. If you seek Him and His completion of you, you will find Him.
May you discover truth and in that truth find peace, joy, grace, compassion and an unfailing Love.
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razzelflabben
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when it comes to design, let me ask you this....forget the mechanism, forget the process, focus only on whether or not it is logical for it to just spontaneously exist given what we scientifically know about something coming from nothing....after that move on
Just a thought for what it's worth...there are christians that believe that God created through the process of evolution.
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faroukfarouk
Fading curmudgeon
Great verse in Jeremiah!
It's amazing how in the middle of the Old Testament sometimes one can be reading and suddenly a really familiar verse stands out!
Yes, the Lord does witness through Creation. In the end it's wondrous how the Son - involved from the start in the Creation of the world - is revealed to be the Saviour.
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com7fy8
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God can have you think what He wants you to think.
And He has people help us, in my case especially by their example of how they relate. I have been a very fussy and critical person, and ones would tell me I was not sensitive in relating with people. And I would be in denial about it. But then I started meeting certain people who were kind and generous with their caring and attention with me, and I could see this was not the way I was being loving with people.
So, in my case I got words of confrontation, and then proof
lololololololololololBut God is not only about pointing out how we are wrong; and in any case He encourages us, whether it is to get what is good or to get correction so we can get what is good.
After ones of us have gotten with God, then we have been able to look back and see how He was with us and communicating with us and helping us.
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Oh, I think I see what you're saying. Your faith is not reliant on or affected by any philosopher's work.
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I would like to get into a deep study of "something from nothing" at a near time. It's always been interesting! And yes, I'd be inclined to think that God would had have to brought us into being by evolution. It seems more Christian philosophers accept this, but theologians/pastors typically think it goes against the Bible.
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razzelflabben
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AS i read your response two things come to mind. 1. the notion that something cannot come from nothing has always been a problem for evolutionists. That being said, the argument then turns to where did God come from....lol we can ask questions all day long but in the end of the matter there always remains things that we cannot know and if we allow those question marks to stop us from believing in something, in this case God, we will never believe in anything. Somewhere along the line, something existed for all that we see to exist when it comes to the notion of something from nothing....I can accept that that something was God simply because 1. it is currently the best explanation, 2. I know from experience God is truth, 3. what better explanation for something we cannot know than a supernatural entity? I mean supernatural by definition would mean that we can't understand it, right?
2. Because we can't know everything I personally side with God did it through whatever means He chose but what seems to not be negotiable is that He did it by speaking it into existence. Here is what I mean, there are two aspects to it. 1. don't read into scripture what is not there. Just read it for what it says. Genesis is not a scientific treatise therefore we should not treat it as such. It is a polemic and a very well written one at that. within that polemic are some things that are not negoriable like God speaking and it was so....but what did He say? How did His command bring it about? etc. are unanswered questions and sooner or later we have to accept that we can't have all the answers in this life. 2. Few people realize this but speciation is talked about in Genesis. If you read about the children of Adam and Eve you will see that each group passes down traits that become ingrained into that people group...speciation. Now this is what is commonly known as micro evolution not macro evolution (common understanding) but it is there so why question that aspect of the creation story? Why question that aspect of the ToE? It is what scripture says and science confirms it...that sounds pretty stong to me. What we don't see is what is commonly known as evolution....could that be the method God used to create? Maybe, don't know and really shouldn't care that much since it is untestable...what we do know is that He did it through speaking that it be done. That should be good enough for us when it comes to something that we cannot know or test.
Well, that is probably more than you wanted to hear from me...just some thoughts for you to throw around.
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Thisis Thend
Member
God can have you think what He wants you to think.
And He has people help us, in my case especially by their example of how they relate. I have been a very fussy and critical person, and ones would tell me I was not sensitive in relating with people. And I would be in denial about it. But then I started meeting certain people who were kind and generous with their caring and attention with me, and I could see this was not the way I was being loving with people.
So, in my case I got words of confrontation, and then proof
But God is not only about pointing out how we are wrong; and in any case He encourages us, whether it is to get what is good or to get correction so we can get what is good.
After ones of us have gotten with God, then we have been able to look back and see how He was with us and communicating with us and helping us.
I myself, have devoted much time pondering the idea of ‘God brings me thoughts.’ Even the idea or concept of discernment, is just another way of saying; “God brought me thoughts, causing me to see or understand something I had not seen before.” So, if anyone is going to say that they ‘discern’ something, it is obviously done by ‘thinking.’ The word ‘discern’ itself, implies God’s intervention when used in the Christian context as in; ‘God brought me discernment’. So yes, it is a true discernment for a person to say; “He would communicate through influencing my thoughts.” And; “God can have you think what He wants you to think” Hmmm..., Here’s some thoughts! I wonder Shaney77, what do you mean by the word ‘influencing’? Look a little deeper. Thoughts are not changed. They come to you, and then other thoughts may be added on top of them or around them. Or, you might decide to choose between this idea or that idea, abandoning the prior ideas. But as far as being ‘influenced,’ thoughts come one upon the next, upon the next, etc.. They are not bent, or changed, or pushed out of shape. A word is a word – it does not become a different word. So, they come in a stream, as in ‘stream of consciousness.’ So, they are like a stream that proceeds forward, gets interrupted and then diverts off into another channel. And if you remember to think about the thing you were thinking about when the thoughts got diverted, then you are going back and picking up where you left off before you started thinking about something else.
But even more; if you understand that God is speaking to you through your thoughts, or other people (by what they say or do), then are they not also being influenced to move, act, and behave by the thoughts He is giving them? No one acts or speaks outside of ‘thought’ or outside of awareness. So, if you believe ‘God has put people in my life,’ or even say; ‘I BELIEVE in the power of prayer to change the things that happen’, then THAT (or by thoughts), is how it is being done. Think about it..., It can be no other way. So, if you don’t believe it, you should never say anything to that effect. Because if you don’t believe He is within you and within others, causing them to think (and by it they move, act, and speak), then you must believe He is standing outside of us just watching what we do. And if this is the case, then you are not making ANY SENSE when you pray, or you testify saying God influences us, or acts upon His creation. And too; what is all of Scripture except ‘thoughts’ or ‘understandings’ that people had, which were then written down. So, when you read Scripture, EVERYTHING you are reading I a representation of people’s thoughts. Even if I see a miracle, I cannot realize what has just happened, unless I am first am aware. Unless I first have ‘thoughts’ (which by the way; lead to feelings) about what I have just witnessed.
And Christ understood this. He understood that the thoughts of belief, had to first come from the Father for people to be drawn to Him. JOHN 6:44. And how else could the Father be the One who “FIRST” draws a person, if the person themselves are generating their own thoughts, and/or making their own choices. For even if they are choosing from among their own thoughts, God would have to be giving them thoughts to choose one way or another. Otherwise, He would not be ‘FIRST’ drawing them. In other words, how can we be the ones who chose to believe of our own accord, if the choice to believe, comes from God FIRST? As i said; "Look a little deeper." So that you might see that Christ taught us by this; "The Father brings you thoughts." Or, another way of saying it is; ‘We do not choose Him, He chooses us’. JOHN 15:16.
And even more, Christ said; “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.” So, Christ knew where the Father was. Of course, He didn’t mean God was inside your stomach or liver or spleen. He meant the Father was in your thoughts – because as Scripture teaches; “God is Spirit.” Things we can see, taste, touch, and smell, are flesh. And spirit is not flesh, nor is flesh spirit. These are separate things. (Well, unless you believe the devil is an actual invisible person in a red suit with horns and a tail, who flies around entering in and out of people – [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]., just had a laughing fit!). And even more, He said the Spirit would ‘bring to our remembrance’ ALL THE THINGS he spoke. JOHN 14:26. And how else do we ‘remember.’ ‘Remember’ is a word that implies ‘thinking,’ or ‘searching your thoughts to find something.’ Of course, some people might read that verse and ‘think’; “It is meant for the people who were physically present when He spoke it at the time. He is saying that they would ‘remember’ the things He had spoken to them.” And, others might ‘think’: “It means that He knew some of the things He said would be written down, so that people in the future might read them so they are ‘remembered’.” But others might ‘think’: “It means He will speak to us by giving us thoughts.” Which I myself ‘think’ is the truer sight. Or, that fullness of thought, which brings discernment of wisdom and understanding. In fact, this discernment is so plainly obvious to me, that I have trouble understanding how someone who has read Scripture, does not see or believe it. Because to my mind, it JUMPS OFF THE PAGE! To my mind or thoughts; IT IS WOVEN INTO THE VERY FABRIC OF THE BOOK! And too; it is by our thoughts that we are given not to stumble, or that we recognize our sin, or that we repent our sin, etc., etc., I guess I could go on and on with many examples of this, but I ‘think’ at least a few people that read this will get it.
I have made other posts that speak to this. But so far, no one has paid much attention. And I ‘think’ the reason for this, is that if it IS in fact true that God is moving and acting by thoughts, then certainly it would be God who would (by the thoughts He is giving) give someone to focus on it, or ‘think’ about it, or believe it. Conversely, God might withhold the idea for however long He chooses. So that one person might read what I post, and not believe it, or not be interested in it, or have a problem with it, etc, and move on to other things. Still another might in fact believe it, but then divert on to other things (other thoughts). But then again, one person might become absolutely fascinated with the idea. Dwelling on it again and again. Maybe even so much so, that they start noticing things when they’re reading Scripture that relate or ‘speak’ to it. Even some might be going about their routine day, not thinking about Spiritual things, and then suddenly a Scriptural verse comes to mind, along with the idea of God being in their thoughts. As if God were giving them a little nudge. For example, within the context of this ‘God’s voice is speaking to me by thoughts’ idea, you might even gain a different perspective on these verses; JOHN 14:23, JOHN 5:25, JOHN 10:27. Yes, this whole concept would certainly make God the ultimate authority. To be in charge of thought. To be in control and able to manipulate a persons very Spirit however He chooses to do it!
Now I suppose if someone did become extremely focused on this idea, they might even begin seeking Him out in their minds. Because they would become curious and want to be able to recognize; “Is that thought God’s thought”? Or; ‘Is that thought God’s voice, or my own ‘blind to God’ thought?” Even perhaps, they might start to recognize some thoughts as distinctly NOT their own. As if they were talking to themselves. And if this were the case, it might be one way that God chooses to reveal Himself to them. After all, I did read a post in another category thread, where someone asks if anyone else has ever had an ‘eyes behind your eyes,’ experience, which basically speaks to the point I am making. And if you think about it, it would be the most intimate personal relationship that I see God could offer. I mean, can you imagine? To have Him right there inside your brain with you! No, you could never have that kind of intimate personal relationship in the flesh. For we are all separate and apart in the flesh. I wonder.., ? Do you think in His design, He might desire such an extreme level of an intimate personal relationship? As if He suddenly rips down a veil, so that you could see Him standing there? Or, as if a glass that was cloudy, suddenly becomes clear?
I wonder if maybe someday, He might choose to ‘well up’ from within. To say; “Here I am! I’m right here in my Kingdom! I’ve have been here all along! I’ve been speaking to you, but I was hidden, hiding Myself. Now I am revealing Myself. Do you see me standing here within you!” Hmmm..., A person might even come to view their thoughts as ‘a secret place,’ because they believe they are alone there, within themselves MAT 6:18. As if God isn’t right there with them - listening and influencing them. Like they can ‘think’ all manner of sinful things, and not be held accountable (planning to lie and manipulate a situation and then carrying it out, bearing false witness and never getting caught, judging people in their minds but never speaking it aloud, lusting in their minds, coveting, etc. etc.). And sinful things we ALL do. But I think we will not be held accountable, as long as we (in truth) repent. And that repentance, is our baptism. And if we don’t feel bad for sinning, or if we just make a prayer and mouth the words, then we are not really baptized. And of course, if God is in fact inside in us, He knows everything we think. I wonder…, How can a person believe they are baptized, if they rarely if ever repent? How can I speak saying that I hold something in my hand, when my hands are empty? Verily I say; they are deluded.
Little one. Read my post again at the top of page 8. Maybe, by my words which ignite your ‘thoughts’, you will be given to see something else. At the very root of that message, was my desire to turn you inward. That you would examine your thoughts. That you would go to that place where God resides, and begin trying to have a conversation with Him. Asking Him to give you that greater measure of sight of Himself. For He says; “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you.” And so, I ask you, “Where do you think God is?” Where would you even go to knock? Is He up above in Heaven, as if you would have to travel somewhere to find His door? No, He is not ‘literally’ above. As if He is hiding behind a cloud, or maybe watching from behind Pluto. We would all do will to stop ‘judging (words) by appearance. JOHN 7:24. To clearly see spiritual symbolism. And by my thoughts, here is what I understand God is speaking to me. He says; “Keep pointing at me little one! Do not stop!!!”
Anyway, I’m practically writing a novel here. But I did want to take some time and share my thoughts. Because my thoughts tell me that I will make only one other shorter post, and then I won’t be back to this place for a while (Of course, I don’t literally mean a ‘place,’ as if I am physically present here. … I mean a ‘place’ in the spiritual sense. For I have appeared here in Spirit, not in the flesh). Anyway, just some ‘food for thought’. And I don’t mean that I think I have just given you literally some food. I mean ‘food’ in the symbolic spiritual sense. That what I say and do is food for your mind, food for your spirit. Or food for your thoughts, food for your soul. JOHN 6:27. JOHN 6:55. Because if you did in fact think I was saying I just ‘literally’ gave you some food, you might think I was a ‘nut case,’ and then turn around and walk away. So that you quit concerning yourself with me, or decide to not believe anything I have to say.
Anyway Shaney77, I do consider non-judgmental open-minded seekers as friends. So, I like writing on this ‘exploring Christianity,’ page. And as I walk away for a time, here are my parting words; “Bye Buddy, I hope you find ur Dad! ”
By Him, with Him, in Him, of Him, to Him, and through Him….,
P.S. - I consider myself to be an amateur Christian philosopher. In fact, I LOVE to read any and all things that are of a philosophical nature – no matter who has written them. And all that I have said here you might consider to be a bit ‘philosophical.’ And since you hold that way of thinking in esteem, perhaps you will give some credence to the fact that I have a VERY STRONG faith and belief in God. So that I hope what I have written, helps you to stay focused on Him. To continue to seek out that faith, that sight of God, for yourself.
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Thisis Thend
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Oh WOW!!! FACINATING!!! I see that this website has changed the ‘Oh.., My.., (blank)… acronym that I posted! (the OM_ which I used in my words about the devil in a red suit). I see that ‘judgment of others’ is ACTUALLY built or designed right into this ‘Christian’ website!!! To judge what the person thinks or means by the harmless expression they use. As if I meant to (or was using) the Lords name in vain. God knows what I meant! Who is anyone else to stand between myself and my Lord and MY GOD! Oh wait.., Thomas used that expression. Oh…, I SEE..., I guess I put the word “Oh” in front of the ‘MY GOD’ when I used it, and Thomas didn’t do that. I guess that makes all the difference somehow? But I really don’t understand it. FA…CI…NA…TING…,! Maybe it has something to do with ‘context’? I don’t’ know…, I’m a little slow sometimes. But I think I do know my own thoughts. I think I know what I meant. I think I do know my own ‘context.’ But maybe some studied one, or some teacher can enlighten me? I do admit.., I haven’t ever studied much. Maybe about 5 or 10 Bible studies to my credit. I don’t hold any theological certifications or anything like that. No degrees issued by men. But I do hope one of them will try. That a child of God might learn and discern by what they say and do. And too; I would hate to think I sinned. Because from what I understand or ‘think’ right now, I do see a sin, but it is not my own. And the sin I see is the very height of irony! The very pinnacle of hypocrisy! For I see a SIN built right into this website! Damn! The blindness of the guides overwhelms me!
Anyway, I’m not actually mad or angry about it. But I guess from my words above, someone might try to tell me what I think and feel, or they might ‘think’ that I am angry (because in their heart they desire to judge me, or perhaps they think the judgment or discernment of God is with them, and not me). Maybe they might even throw a stone or two somehow? Grow angry in their judgment and vent that anger at me with their words? After all, from the heart the mouth speaks – right? But I suppose, only they and God are in their ‘secret place,’ knowing whether or not they are truly angry or stand in judgement. I suppose, they could ‘say’ anything. Maybe even something that does not reflect how they truly feel, but is rather; an attempt to lift themselves up in the eyes of others? Maybe gain some ‘likes’ on their profile? Perhaps the authorities that are given charge of this website, might ban me? Attempting to get me to stop proclaiming the things I see? Who knows. And; Really…, what do I know? They will do as they will do. And if I did know, would I care?
Oh.., now I get it! Now I discern! THIS…., is the ‘shorter post’ that my thoughts told me I would make. I do wish I could come back to this place and post again. But I can’t. ACT 16:7. And too; what I am trying to say, is exactly what I have said. For I am done trying. If I was still trying to say something, I would still be at work. If I was still trying, the post would not be here for you to read.
Yes, we would all do well, to simply tell the truth. To make our yes, yes…, and our no, no…, Yes, we would be doing well if there was no need for us to swear by something, as if there is some doubt as to the truthfulness of our words. So, that we feel the need to take an extra measure to make sure someone believes us. Why would I need to ‘swear’ by anything? That is only an admission. By doing it, I am admitting there are times when I don’t tell the truth, that I might be lying. If I only ever tell the truth, there is no need to take an extra measure in convincing another of my truthfulness. To swear by something, is to ADMIT you could be lying!!! If I felt the need to swear by something, another might say of me; "You can't trust what he says. I have seen him swear before, so he has basically admitted he might be lying. So, make him swear first before you trust what he says." So, I don’t need to swear. My words are enough. I speak the truth! But if you want, I will go ahead and do it. Could someone that is sitting in "One Nation under God" bring me the Bible..., the one with the words that say; "Do not swear at all". MAT 5:34. The one that teaches; "Do not swear by anything". I'd like to place my hands on it, so that I can swear by it.
Take care and GOD BLESS (but whatever you do, do not curse!).
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This is a LOT to think about! I somewhat sort of see where you are going with it, though! I think I would do a lot better to come back and read everything here again, along with the older post you mentioned, when ADHD isn't completely taking over my mind. I am mentally drained and physically exhausted even though I haven't really done anything all day! It's most likely due to a bad sleeping schedule. But I shall remember your post here and read through it another day! And I do really appreciate all of the time you took to help me. <3
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