How to walk in the Spirit.

[Sidon]

I just get tired of convoluted gospels stemming from people like yourself who lack a sufficiently full knowledge of God and His will.

You feel that if a born again Christian does not go back under the "curse of the law",where you exist, then they are teaching a "convoluted Gospel".
That's ridiculous.
You live on this forum to try to contradict God's grace with your idea of Salvation as Lawkeeping .
So, you have the Galatians 1:8 Gospel.
Not me.
Not Paul.
I teach His Gospel, as He defined it as '"My Gospel".

 

[Sidon]

What did Jesus do? He obeyed the Father. He prayed. He knew Scripture. He resisted temptation. He performed works. He persevered. Did He do any of that to become saved or to stay saved?

Jesus didn't need to be saved, as He is the Savior.
He was/is sinless.

His did all you listed and more, because He had to "fulfill all", including the Law.
Once He took care of all God's requirements as a MAN, as the 2nd Adam, then He had accomplished for all the world what God requires of them, of us, to be reconciled back to God.

God as Jesus, is our reconciliation back to Himself, back into His eternal family.

God came here as a man, to meet His own requirements of us, and in doing this, He becomes our reconciliation back to Himself.

John 14:6

 

[ozso]

Jesus didn't need to be saved, as He is the Savior.
He was/is sinless.

His did all you listed and more, because He had to "fulfill all", including the Law.
Once He took care of all God's requirements as a MAN, as the 2nd Adam, then He had accomplished for all the world what God requires of them, of us, to be reconciled back to God.

God as Jesus, is our reconciliation back to Himself, back into His eternal family.

God came here as a man, to meet His own requirements of us, and in doing this, He becomes our reconciliation back to Himself.

John 14:6

And why should we do those things?

 

[Sidon]

And why should we do those things?

WE are told to "present our bodies as a living sacrifice".

This does not mean that by doing this, we are keeping ourselves saved.

What it means is......we are working as our love and as our lives, as our discipleship.

God is only looking for one thing from His born again.
He just wants us to love Him back.
And when we do, we "present our bodies as a living sacrifice".
Thats our discipleship....>Its simply loving God back, as our ultimate appreciation for His Gift of Salvation.

 

[fhansen]

You feel that if a born again Christian does not go back under the "curse of the law",where you exist, then they are teaching a "convoluted Gospel".
That's ridiculous.
You live on this forum to try to contradict God's grace with your idea of Salvation as Lawkeeping .
So, you have the Galatians 1:8 Gospel.
Not me.
Not Paul.
I teach His Gospel, as He defined it as '"My Gospel".

No, you teach your convoluted gospel. I'm on the forums, in part, to defend the true gospel, not watered down, not stunted, not convoluted-while you contradict much of the gospel. The only possible explanation to your objection as far as I can tell is this: you want no part in any obligation to be personally righteous in order to enter heaven-and you equate any such obligation with legalism, and if so, that is unscriptural, "un-Pauline" tripe.

We do not take away from-but only affirm -the work of Christ by following His will in being reconciled with God and living by His grace, by the Spirit, with the "righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith"-and being held accountable for doing so as we all should know that faith and the fellowship with God that it establishes is meant to produce real righteousness in us rather than a merely declared one.

 

[Sidon]

No, you teach your convoluted gospel. I'm on the forums, in part, to defend the true gospel,

The Gospel is that God came here, shed His blood, and offers this as reconciliation to the world as "the gift of righteousness" which is "the GIFT of Salvation"
To partake of this reconciliation, you are to do the "work of God".
This work is to " believe on Jesus whom God sent".

So, do you see any LAW KEEPING IN THAT?

So, that is not your "gospel", but it certain its Paul's, and it certainly is God's.

 

[fhansen]

The Gospel is that God came here, shed His blood, and offers this as reconciliation to the world as "the gift of righteousness" which is "the GIFT of Salvation"
To partake of this reconciliation, you are to do the "work of God".
This work is to " believe on Jesus whom God sent".

So, do you see any LAW KEEPING IN THAT?

So, that is not your "gospel", but it certain its Paul's, and it certainly is God's.

Nope, it's yours. There's is complete

 

[Clare73]

Or they're one and the same, with both a carrot and stick in front of and behind them. We're given the grace to be authentically righteous, and yet we're also obligated to be righteous.

The difference is "authentic" righteousness is not what saves, it is faith apart from works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies (Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28), nevertheless, true faith is never without works of obedience leading to holiness.

 

[fhansen]

The difference is "authentic" righteousness is not what saves, it is faith apart from works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies (Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28), nevertheless, true faith is never without works of obedience leading to holiness.

No, authentic personal righteousness that comes from God does not produce works of the law motivated by legalism but rather works prepared for us in advance as per Eph 2:10, motivated by the love poured out into us by the Holy Spirit. And we will be judged on that love. Such works, along with faith, are gifts of grace-that we may act on or not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let me try it this way..

Jesus said..>"depart from me, i never knew you".

So, these were people who were disciples, and casting out demons. Yet, Christ said, Depart, i never KNEW YOU">.

So, they were doing the works, and ended up in hell.
They were obedient, and ended up in Hell.

Why is that?
Its because Christ didnt "KNOW" THEM.
See, when you are born again, God KNOWS you, because He lives IN YOU.
When you are not born again, you do works, and try to be really religious, and Christ will tell you to depart.

See, this is why Jesus said...>"you MUST be born again".
If you are not, then He does not know you, even if this person, is water baptized, and basically lives in Church.
See, all of that is just SELF EFFORT.
God does not accept any of that to be reconciled to you.

These people in Matthew 7:21-27 were never in Christ to begin with. These are not people who didn’t remain in Him these are people who were never in Him in the first place. Hence “I NEVER knew you”.

Edit: Oh and BTW they were not doing good works because apart from Christ they can do nothing. John 15:4-5 They were practicing lawlessness and did not hear His words and ACT on them. That’s the whole point of the message in Matthew 7:21-27.

 

[Sidon]

Nope, it's yours. There's is complete

I teach Paul's "Justification by Faith".
If you have this, then you'll hear me.
It not, then you wont be able to hear me.

 

[Clare73]

No, as you'll see in my post before this one.
The phrasing gets confusing for me. A lot of times it sounds to me something like,
'it's not a cheese burger, it's a burger with cheese'. In this case something like 'it's from God, not us, but it's from us'.

Good analogy!

The issue is understanding correctly according to definition, otherwise things morph into something totally unrelated.

If "burger" is defined as "meat and bread," then meat, bread and cheese is not a cheese burger, it is a burger with cheese.
And then changing the bread on the "cheeseburger" to a lettuce leaf makes it not even a "burger" at all.

We must have the ability to distinguish and to stay close to the bone of definition in Biblical words if they are to have their Biblical meaning in discussion.

]That's not just you, I have the same problem no matter who explains it. I think you explain it quite well actually, even though for me the penny hasn't dropped yet.

 

[Sidon]

These people in Matthew 7:21-27 were never in Christ to begin with.
Edit: Oh and BTW they were not doing good works because apart from Christ they can do nothing.

Well, here is the issue with how you are trying to understand your verses.
Hell, today received more people.
Some of them, went to church for 50 yrs, preached in the Pulpit, and yet.......
So, all of these, were doing works for Christ.
There were doing the same works as a real child of God.
Hoever, their works were "apart" From Christ, because they were not born again to become "IN Christ".
So, its not the works, its the new birth, that matters.
Jesus said...>'""" You MUST be born again" or you remain apart from God and Christ.= You will go to hell when you die.

So, when you read Matt 7:21, it explains the issue.
This verse says that those who will be told to Depart, never did the will of God.
The will of God, is the "work of God", and the work of God is that "you believes on Jesus whom God sent".

So, the Matt 7 group was just like the Hebrews 10 group.

CHRIST REJECTORS.

 

[Sidon]

We must have the ability to distinguish and to stay close to the bone of definition in Biblical words if they are to have their Biblical meaning in discussion.

And the best way to do that it to leave the "greek" alone and instead study a real Bible.

 

[Clare73]

But do we necessarily desire and pursue it in reality? Do we really choose good and reject evil? Do we really love God? Or do we just say, ‘I believe, or once believed, and so now those things really don’t matter; they never did, in fact, because God only cares about my faith, not what I do.’ Or sees me as righteous regardless of the truth of the matter.

God is on man’s side, more than we can begin to know. But He has expectations of us-and for us-and for what we do with the gift He’s given. He seeks to draw us increasingly into true, personal, righteousness, and that comes as we draw nearer to Him in response. He initiates, we respond, or not, we can turn back away, or become lukewarm like the church in Laodicea in Rev 3 that He was ready to spit out. Anyway, the more we respond- the more we love Him as He first loved us-the nearer we are to our goal, and, yes, the more we then desire it, desire goodness and righteousness, on our own, willingly as we grow in likeness of Him. We rest in Him, but we also work with Him. And His burden is light.

I don’t think that accurately conveys what I’ve said at all. The truth is that it’s a gift from God, but we can refuse the gift. As we accept, we’re in agreement. To the extent that we accept we’re in agreement, and that’s a process, a living and growing walk and relationship. The difference is only in that we participate with God, at His discretion, through whatever time we have on this earth, for our highest good. It’s only a struggle at all because we’re truly on His side to the extent that we love. Basil bears repeating here:
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.

God wants that love-born obedience and goodness for us; that’s all He wants. We’re here to grow towards it, but we can also grow away from it. He doesn’t force us to want and accept Him; He draws us to do so, He knocks at our door, and we allow Him in, or not. We pick up our cross daily, or not. Sometimes we fail, and He’s there to pick us back up. It’s a cooperative effort but at the end of the day He simply does not force us to remain in Him. Our holiness, our sanctification, our justice, is greater to the degree that we also will it. To put it another way, again, love is a choice, or it’s not really love at all.

And love is real righteousness, not a declared righteousness, and love is the virtue we’ll be judged on.

So the Orthodox Jew who loves God, his righteousness, lives thereby, and loves others well, while rejecting Jesus Christ and his salvation, will stand (pass, not fall/fail) in the Judgment?

Not according to Jesus. (John 3:18; John 3:36)

And if there’s any kind of struggle or personal battle going on, it’s only within ourselves, and it’s a good battle. Here’s a teaching I’m familiar with that accurately reflects man’s situation IMO:

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"makes man's life a battle:

The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.

No, authentic personal righteousness that comes from God does not produce works of the law motivated by legalism but rather works prepared for us in advance as per Eph 2:10, motivated by the love poured out into us by the Holy Spirit. And we will be judged on that love. Such works, along with faith, are gifts of grace-that we may act on or not.

Who said anything about legalistic works of the law?
Works of faith are obedience in the Holy Spirit leading to holiness (Romans 6:19, Romans 6:22).

 

[Clare73]

Let me try it this way..

Jesus said..>"depart from me, i never knew you".

So, these were people who were disciples, and casting out demons. Yet, Christ said, Depart, i never KNEW YOU">.

So, they were doing the works, and ended up in hell.
They were obedient, and ended up in Hell.

Why is that?
Its because Christ didnt "KNOW" THEM.
See, when you are born again, God KNOWS you, because He lives IN YOU.
When you are not born again, you do works, and try to be really religious, and Christ will tell you to depart.

See, this is why Jesus said...>"you MUST be born again".
If you are not, then He does not know you, even if this person, is water baptized, and basically lives in Church.
See, all of that is just SELF EFFORT.
God does not accept any of that to be reconciled to you.

And not being born again, they worked miracles in his name. . .how do you think that works?

 

[Clare73]

God found fault with the OT Old Covenant, because the law and commandments found there, can't make you righteous.
And without righteousness, you can't be reconciled to God and go to Heaven.

Jesus stated 2 commandments.

I teach

Which is the problem. . .

that if you keep the First One, diligently, then God will give you the power to keep the 2nd one faithfully.

So who gives the power to keep the first one?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, here is the issue with how you are trying to understand your verses.
Hell, today received more people.
Some of them, went to church for 50 yrs, preached in the Pulpit, and yet.......
So, all of these, were doing works for Christ.
There were doing the same works as a real child of God.
Hoever, their works were "apart" From Christ, because they were not born again to become "IN Christ".
So, its not the works, its the new birth, that matters.
Jesus said...>'""" You MUST be born again" or you remain apart from God and Christ.= You will go to hell when you die.

So, when you read Matt 7:21, it explains the issue.
This verse says that those who will be told to Depart, never did the will of God.
The will of God, is the "work of God", and the work of God is that "you believes on Jesus whom God sent".

So, the Matt 7 group was just like the Hebrews 10 group.

CHRIST REJECTORS.

Demons believe in Christ, yet they were casted out of Heaven for their lawlessness and defiance. Until you understand the definition of the Greek words pistis, pisteuo, and pistos you will never understand the biblical definition of the words faith, believe, and believer. I’ve already explained it to you but you chose to ignore it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And not being born again, they worked miracles in his name. . .how do you think that works?

Judas did the same thing, he performed miracles in Christ’s name and was condemned because of his disbelief.

 

[Clare73]

Well, here is the issue with how you are trying to understand your verses.
Hell, today received more people.
Some of them, went to church for 50 yrs, preached in the Pulpit, and yet.......
So, all of these, were doing works for Christ.
There were doing the same works as a real child of God.
Hoever, their works were "apart" From Christ, because they were not born again to become "IN Christ".
So, its not the works, its the new birth, that matters.
Jesus said...>'""" You MUST be born again" or you remain apart from God and Christ.= You will go to hell when you die.

So, when you read Matt 7:21, it explains the issue.
This verse says that those who will be told to Depart, never did the will of God.
The will of God, is the "work of God", and the work of God is that "you believes on Jesus whom God sent".

So, the Matt 7 group was just like the Hebrews 10 group.

CHRIST REJECTORS.

Only if the professing Hebrews (Hebrews 3:1) apostasize (drift away) from their profession of faith (Hebrews 2:1).