Don't tell me what Paul means, prove it!
I already have proved it. I'm really getting tired of your continuous straw man arguments, false accusations and being unable to perceive what I explain, so I will limit my responses to the very heart of the issue and address some new scriptures that I have not already covered with you.
Paul taught that we are saved the moment we have faith and trust (your definition of faith alone) in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ. Then immediately God gives us His Holy Spirit. Your saying this is what Paul taught.
Then you go on to say this faith only saves and as a result of already being saved we produce fruit/ works.
Once again you have contradicted yourself.
Paul clearly stated that we are
saved by grace through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and not through faith
and works as you teach. Paul also goes on to say in verse 10 that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Saved through faith, not works then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. *No contradiction at all.*
If we are only saved by your definition of "saving" faith ALONE (faith and complete trust in Jesus having all the power to save us apart from obedience/works)
Do you believe that Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior? (salvation through faith in Christ alone) or do you believe that Christ is an IN-sufficient Savior? (salvation through faith and works). Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
If this is all of mans part in his salvation then repentance is non-essential.
No, repentance is essential because if we don't repent (change our mind) then we won't place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
You need to make up your mind. Are we saved by just your definition of faith alone?
My definition of salvation through faith in Christ alone (Romans 4:5-6) is not to be confused with James' definition of faith only/empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) This is the cause of much of your confusion and continued straw man arguments and false accusations.
Or when you also include repentance with your faith alone? Your explanations are not consistent and are logical contradictions.
Not logical to you because every time you hear me say "salvation through faith in Christ alone" (Romans 4:5-6) you equate it with "faith only" (empty profession of faith/dead faith) in James 2:24 which is not what I'm teaching. As I stated before, I could explain this to you until I'm blue in the face, but you still won't get it.
According to you, Paul teaches we are saved before our faith produces fruit ie obedience/works.
That's true because Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
You have misquoted and contradicted Paul again.
Actually, you have and continue to do so.
Paul never taught faith that has not produced fruit saves us.....faith alone with no obedience to Gods commands.
So how many further commands must we accomplish in order to be saved "after" we have already been saved through faith and not by works? (Ephesians 2:8,9) How much obedience must we accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us? Salvation by works is motivated by PRIDE.
Paul agrees with John's teaching on Biblical faith.
John 3:36 (NASB 1995)
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John teaches the opposite of your definition of Biblical faith.
You say saving faith ALONE has no obedience. We are saved before obedient works.
You keep accusing me of confusing obedient works with saving faith.
Now who has the correct definition of Biblical saving faith?
JOHN DOES!!!
John 3:36
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John and I teach the exact same Biblical saving faith.
You teach a contradiction of John's Biblical saving faith.
John equates belief and obedience AS ONE IN THE SAME.
You teach faith alone with no obedience saves us.
After faith with no obedience saves us then we obey Gods commandments.
I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Campbellites and Mormons) quote
John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works which "follows" saving belief in Christ. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follows" believing in the Son, but
obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes
and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said.
To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
"believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says
"rejects the Son" and the HCSB says,
"refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "
to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to
reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
I'll tell you again Danthemailman, saving Biblical faith is never ALONE! It is an OBEDIENT FAITH THAT SAVES! Says John, Paul ,James, Peter and the rest of the apostles.
I never said faith that saves does not result in producing obedience/works, yet Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" having been saved through faith.
More proof your definition of Biblical saving faith ALONE is unscriptual.
Your alleged proof is no proof at all. It's just Campbellite smoke and mirrors.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life;
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect , He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that OBEY Him
Believeth....have everlasting life =
Obey Him.... eternal salvation.
Those who believe are saved/those who obey Him by choosing to believe are saved. Nothing here about salvation by works. I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 5:8,9 with you in post #113. Go back and read it again.
How one is saved.....
John and the writer of Hebrews agree. Saved by obedient faith. Never faith without obedience.
Obedience which "follows" having been saved through faith is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Works-salvationists cannot figure this out and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
More Biblical proof saving faith includes obedience/works.
Biblical saving faith RESULTS in producing obedience/works, yet obedience/works which "follows" having been saved through faith is not the essence of faith and is also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. *
Until you get this right, you will continue to promote salvation by works.*
Hebrews 3:18-19 (NASB 1995)
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT?
So we see that they were not able to enter because of UNBELIEF.
Once again the Bible gives my definition of Biblical saving faith and not your confusion.
Your confusion continues to result in salvation by works. The disobedience of these Hebrews here was a manifestation of their unbelief.
Gods word teaches us that the faith that has the power to save is an OBEDIENT FAITH!
That's just another way of saying we are saved by faith AND WORKS. Faith that has the power to save
TRUSTS IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION and obedience/works FOLLOW as the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. I can't explain it any clearer than that.
You try to be saved before obedience. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
So how much obedience does it take? Since the
object of my faith (Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption) is IN-sufficient to save me according to you, then how much obedience must I accomplish and "add as a supplement" to His finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save me? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have produced "enough" obedience/works so NOW the Lord will finally be able to save you? You continue to seek salvation by works. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Faith and obedience are equivalent. They cannot be separated.
You make the same error that I made prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and was very confused, just like you are now. I remember believing that faith "is" baptism faith "is" multiple acts of obedience faith "is" works which is absolutely FALSE! Faith is faith and multiple acts of obedience which "follow" are works.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
The faith that saves is the faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and obedience/works "follow."
Can we be saved without obeying the command to believe?
No. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5 etc..).
1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
You claim there is no obedience in salvation. No commandments we must obey.
Your claim is that those who believe and are saved are no really not saved yet until they accomplish a list of works afterwards. That salvation by grace through faith and not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.
You contradict your Faith alone gospel again.
I don't contradict anything. We are saved through faith, not works. Period. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
We MUST obey the command to believe!!!
Never said anything different. (John 3:18)
You cannot get saved by a faith that is dead with no works.
Saving faith in Christ is not a dead faith, but is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5) and it results in producing works, (Ephesians 2:10) yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
Paul teaches the faith that saves us is an obedient faith.
Your continued mantra. Salvation by faith + obedience/works. Is that what Paul taught in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5? Of course not, but you have your agenda.
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for His name sake.
Here Paul clearly teaches he received Gods grace from a obedient faith.
You contradict again, and say Paul was not teaching he had obedience in order to be saved.
You think you really believe what the scriptures say? Then why do you continually contradict the Inspired writers?
Paul says he received Gods grace FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL.
I believe what Paul teaches Sir, you contradict him.
Now please, I don't want to hear you interpret Paul again in Romans 1:5. I will believe in Paul's own words. I do not need you to twist his meaning.
Paul again teaches the opposite of your faith alone.
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Paul does not teach we are saved by meritorious works and neither do I.
You can continue to slander me but it wont change my true beliefs. And it will never make you honest or correct.
Obedience saves the same way faith saves. They both are a condition in Gods plan of salvation ie the gospel.
I can say the same about you.
You are not putting all your trust in Christ as all sufficient to save you. Your trust is in your belief ALONE not in Christ.
Neither belief by itself nor works by themself save. It is the whole gospel (in its entirety) that has the power to save, Romans 1:16. In the gospel you have Gods grace our faith and Gods commandments. All must be included for it to be the true Biblical gospel if we are to be saved by it.
You want me to believe saving faith is faith alone.
You believe faith that saves has no obedience no fruit. Only true Biblical faith produces works ,fruit, obedience after one is saved. Show me the evidence that your faith alone is genuine? You cannot. As James taught,
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
This statement of James is true before we are saved and after God has saved us.
Faith that saves that has no works cannot prove itself to be genuine faith. Why should I believe your faith alone really saved you? What works of obedience do you have to show you have genuine Biblical faith? Your faith alone proves otherwise. That is why I do not accept your claim that Biblical saving faith, as you call it "faith alone" has trust/reliance on God. James says PROVE IT!!! Show me your faith saved you!
And do not try to claim James does not make this the issue. Don't claim James assumes already Faith alone saves and works is done after one is saved as the evidence. James is making the issue about whether faith without works saves or faith with obedience saves, not after the fact!
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith(faith with no obedience) SAVE HIM?
James' issue with faith alone and faith+works is an issue of salvation! That is a fact. To claim otherwise is to disagree with James!
More the same confusion and false accusations. I already thoroughly covered these passages of scripture with you above (in multiple posts) that you continue to distort in order to support your "works based" false gospel, but you just don't have ears to hear. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel and only then will the blinders be removed and you will finally understand what I'm explaining to you.