How one is saved.....

[Titus Dorn]

Reading post #177 is like reading a book.
Maybe some other time.

Grace, faith works.
I believe it better to say grace, faith, charity.
Charity is the best definition for our works.
I don't believe God is all that concerned with our works but rather our character.
Our works based on charity is what counts.

Ok, now show me where we are saved by your teaching. With book, chapter and verse. If what you teach can be shown to be Biblical I will be blessed by you sharing with me the truth.

You do understand that charity is done after we are already saved? Are you implying that our salvation comes from works that we do?

Also when you said "I don't believe God is all that concerned with our works" Then why did you include charity?

 

[OSAS 101]

Ok, now show me where we are saved by your teaching. With book, chapter and verse. If what you teach can be shown to be Biblical I will be blessed by you sharing with me the truth.

You do understand that charity is done after we are already saved? Are you implying that our salvation comes from works that we do?

Also when you said "I don't believe God is all that concerned with our works" Then why did you include charity?

You don't understand charity?
Get a handle on what charity means and I'll show you why it's a better, more accurate interpretation than yours.

 

[Titus Dorn]

You don't understand charity?
Get a handle on what charity means and I'll show you why it's a better, more accurate interpretation than yours.

I am so glad you have shown me that there is something I dont understand.

I'm on here to learn also. So I am all ears for you to teach me with book, chapter and verse what charity is and how it pertains to our salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

It is true the Holy Bible teaches we are not saved by works. I agree completely with Paul's teaching in Epheasians. But we must be Biblically educated well enough to know what kind of works Paul is referring to in Epheasians 2:8-9.

It is unbiblical teaching to teach we are saved by faith ALONE. Nowhere does any of the apostles or Jesus Christ Himself teach this false man made doctrine.

Why? Because it is an impossibility to be saved without works.

I will prove that the Bible really teaches we are saved by,

Grace, Faith, Works............Faith alone , without works, Gods works and our obedience is dead, James 2:24;26

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). Roman Catholics make the same argument about works that you make. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works a Christian could accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith and works. Your argument amounts to salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law, but includes works in general. In 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. Likewise, in Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. so Paul covers all works.

Where does it say in Genesis 12 that Abraham was "accounted as righteous" simply by getting out of his country, from his family and from his fathers house, to a land that God will show him? It doesn't. That's only part of the story and yes Abraham obeyed and went, BUT it was not until Genesis 15:5, AFTER God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” *VERSE 6 - And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it (faith, not works) to him for righteousness. *Just as we see in Romans 4:3 - "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

If someone asks you to drive 500 miles to their house and they will explain the gospel to you and once you get to their house, you believe the gospel and are saved, does that mean you are saved by believing the gospel plus by the merit of driving 500 miles to their house? Of course not. We are saved when we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) regardless of the efforts we made to hear the gospel.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to be saved by works, which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."

In regards to Jesus receiving water baptism in Matthew 3:15, Jesus stated - “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." So getting water baptized is a "work of righteousness" and in Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which pertains to internal, spiritual washing by the Holy Spirit and not plain, ordinary H20 which has no power to cleanse the heart from sin and regenerate.

In regards to Colossians 2:12, Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water. The context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands" and the parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demonstrates that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also. Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God.

In regards to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of an already established faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, not the means of salvation. Don't put the cart before the horse by confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. This verse gives a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness do so as the result of already having been saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

So once again, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Titus Dorn]

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

Thanks for all the effort Danthemailman. I really do appreciate it.

Hopefully I will get you to see that the phrase faith alone is unscriptual error in phraseology.

The Bible has many phrases, example calling on the name of the Lord This phrase is all throughout the old and new testaments.

Not once does the Bible use the phrase Faith Alone.

You know why? Because it is an error in Biblical interpretation of scripture. I will prove that the salvation formula of grace + faith alone is not the gospel taught anywhere in the Bible.

Really, I don't need to prove it, for you have already done it for me in your post that I have posted above.

"Based on the merits of His finished WORK"

You just agreed with what the Bible teaches saves us,

Gods grace + mans faith + Gods merit, works = salvation

You understand yourself, and that's why I like discussion with you. You don't have an issue with there being works in salvation.

The real problem you have is your sects mess of doctrinal explanation.

If I could get you to realize what a poorly descriptive phrase Faith Alone is as a definition for how one is saved. I will of made some head-way in your teaching on salvation. Again it has nothing to do with who is smarter than who, only indoctrination that causes blindness to the obvious.

Now please answer this,

John 6:28-29
Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might WORK THE WORKS OF GOD? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Now who told you that is just a play on words?

Think about this, who came up with the idea of how He wanted to save mankind?

Dumb question I know, obviously God did.

Now who's "mind" did the whole concept of Faith come from, it came from God.

God breathed faith as a condition for man to obey in order to receive His grace. Man had nothing to do with this work of God.

Now that we know Faith comes from the "mind" of God. We must also conclude it is in fact a work of God. It cannot be only a play on words. It is a thought process that comes directly from the "mind" of God and he also put His thoughts on Faith into practise when He brought this idea of His to earth for man to follow. God thought it and took action on it by bringing it to mankind.

That is more than just a play on words. It is LITERALLY A WORK OF GOD. Just as Jesus says it is in, John 6:28-29.

Now you have already admitted that God does works of merit in order that we might be saved. Theres works involved in salvation. And for you to say otherwise goes against the Biblical gospel that is taught in the Bible. You know this to be true.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

Yes not based on our merit, you already know I dont believe man can earn his salvation. But you contract that poor protestant phrase of Faith only right in your own explanation of how we are saved.

"Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished WORK"

Based on your own explanation of how salvation works. You admitted works must be involved for man to be saved. Which is exactly my position all along. Not works that we do, Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

But works that God does for us and on us, John 6:28-29; Colossians 2:12

So my formula for Gods plan of salvation ie Jesus' gospel. Is Biblically sound, while your Faith Alone is nowhere found in the Bible.

This is Gods formula to receive salvation, Grace+ obedient faith + Gods works.

The Bible teaches faith is a work. The protestants teach we are saved by faith only apart from ANY kind of works.

Since faith is a work of God, John 6:28-29.... this is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent, You teach faith ALONE without any kind of works save us. So you deny man is saved by that which you say we are saved!!!

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Never does the Bible teach Belief alone. Every one of those passages are referring to Biblical faith which is never alone. Faith that saves always is implied that it obeys God. Why do you hate the idea of obedience to God so greatly? Obeying God is the most beautifull thing a person can do.

In regards to Jesus receiving water baptism in Matthew 3:15, Jesus stated - “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." So getting water baptized is a "work of righteousness"

No Sir, you cannot compare Jesus' baptism WHO IS WITHOUT SIN AND IS GOD, to the reason man requires baptism. Very poor exegesis.

In regards to Colossians 2:12, Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

I will teach on baptism a little but I really just want you to give an answer on how one is saved without any works of any kind, only faith Alone.

No God does not teach in Colossians 2:12 that he already operated on us by Faith alone. The verse nowhere teaches this.

By the way when God operates on us. That is a WORK INVOLVED IN OUR SALVATION. Faith +works = salvation.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with Him IN BAPTISM wherein also ye are risen with Him...

This scripture is clearly teaching we are buried with Christ in baptism Not BEFORE! Then in baptism we are RAISED WITH CHRIST JUST AS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. We also raise BORN AGAIN from the dead in BAPTISM never by Faith alone.

You want to die from the old man of sin and be born again with Christ? Gods word says it only occurs in baptism.

....through the faith of the OPERATION of God,...

Through faith alone without baptism? NOT ACCORDING TO COLOSSIANS 2:12.

Just as faith precedes water baptism. Why does it? Because the only folks who will be water baptized are those who already have FAITH. No one without faith is going to believe that water baptism can save them. Just as Jesus COMMANDS in Mark 16:15-16.

Will you admit that the Baptist's go against the gospel of Jesus Christ by refusing to admit that water immersion is a DIRECT COMMAND OF OUR LORD? Why dont you teach the truth on water baptism?

Acts 10:48
And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Colossians 2:12
...through the faith of the OPERATION/WORK OF GOD, who hath raised Him from the dead.

When does Colossians 2:12 teach God works His saving power on us?

Is it before baptism? Does this passage teach God operates on us at the instance of Belief?

No, we know exactly what this passage is teaching!

God operates on us with His power to make us born again in WATER BAPTISM.

Faith is a work of God.

Repantance is a work of God

Confession is a work of God

Baptism in Water is a Work of God, Colossians 2:12-13; Acts 2:38.

All of these works of God must be OBEYED! Not only the work of Faith, as you teach in error.

Titus 3:5 are works of man. They are meritorious works of the law of Moses. Cannot save, Galatians 2:16

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.

The works we do in Acts 10:35 cannot be the same kind of works in Titus 3:5 because God accepts the obedient works we do in Acts 10:35 and condems the works we do in Titus 3:5.

Acts 10:35
....worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.
This verse proves that righteousness does not come by only belief as your sect teaches.

You cannot get around the fact that Gods word teaches there are works/commandments of God, that when we obey do account us as righteous, justified. You can claim only faith alone can account a man righteous but you are calling God a liar when you do.

James 2:24
Ye see then how by works(obedience) a man is JUSTIFIED and not by faith only.

Why can you not see that James is not saying you are justified without obedience? James never once says man is counted as righteous/justified before obedience only after. Obedient Faith saves.

 

[Danthemailman]

Thanks for all the effort Danthemailman. I really do appreciate it.

Hopefully I will get you to see that the phrase faith alone is unscriptual error in phraseology.

Salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone is not unscriptural. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works/saved by grace through faith, not works. What does that leave you with? Saved through faith and not by works.

The Bible has many phrases, example calling on the name of the Lord This phrase is all throughout the old and new testaments.

Romans 10:13 - For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” When you call on the name of the Lord to save you to it is that you trust in Him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling is the essential faith that He can and will save you. So, in essence, those who call on the name of the Lord do so in faith and trust in the Lord to provide for them eternal life.

Not once does the Bible use the phrase Faith Alone.

As I already explained, the Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..) and that you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. These many passages of scripture do not say belief/faith "plus works" so then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

You know why? Because it is an error in Biblical interpretation of scripture. I will prove that the salvation formula of grace + faith alone is not the gospel taught anywhere in the Bible.

Saved by grace through faith, not works = faith in Christ alone and is the salvation formula and you will never prove otherwise.

Really, I don't need to prove it, for you have already done it for me in your post that I have posted above.

"Based on the merits of His finished WORK"

You just agreed with what the Bible teaches saves us,

Gods grace + mans faith + Gods merit, works = salvation

That is not salvation based on the merits of our works and faith in Christ alone for salvation does not eliminate God's grace. It simply means we are saved the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation/we are trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works.

You understand yourself, and that's why I like discussion with you. You don't have an issue with there being works in salvation.

Our works are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Man is saved apart from the merit of works, yet faith that saves does not remain apart from the presence of works. Simple!

The real problem you have is your sects mess of doctrinal explanation.

Your sects 5 step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics and it culminates in salvation by works. Now that's a mess.

If I could get you to realize what a poorly descriptive phrase Faith Alone is as a definition for how one is saved. I will of made some head-way in your teaching on salvation. Again it has nothing to do with who is smarter than who, only indoctrination that causes blindness to the obvious.

You don't seem to truly understand what I mean by salvation through faith in Christ alone no matter how many times I explain it to you. All you hear is it excludes everything else, like God's grace and those who are saved by faith in Christ alone never repented etc.. but that is not the case.

Now please answer this,

John 6:28-29
Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might WORK THE WORKS OF GOD? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Now who told you that is just a play on words?

Think about this, who came up with the idea of how He wanted to save mankind?

Dumb question I know, obviously God did.

Now who's "mind" did the whole concept of Faith come from, it came from God.

God breathed faith as a condition for man to obey in order to receive His grace. Man had nothing to do with this work of God.

Now that we know Faith comes from the "mind" of God. We must also conclude it is in fact a work of God. It cannot be only a play on words. It is a thought process that comes directly from the "mind" of God and he also put His thoughts on Faith into practise when He brought this idea of His to earth for man to follow. God thought it and took action on it by bringing it to mankind.

That is more than just a play on words. It is LITERALLY A WORK OF GOD. Just as Jesus says it is in, John 6:28-29.

Again, John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Jesus was simply saying this is what God requires (work of God singular) that you believe (in contrast with works of God plural) and believing is not just saying that you believe. Believing really believes, without doubting. Believing is something we must do ourselves. God will not do it for us.

Now you have already admitted that God does works of merit in order that we might be saved. Theres works involved in salvation. And for you to say otherwise goes against the Biblical gospel that is taught in the Bible. You know this to be true.

When did I ever say that the works accomplished by Jesus (His finished work of redemption) is not involved in our salvation? That is the actual means of our salvation and the object of our faith. Faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. Faith in Christ alone does not eliminate His finished work of redemption. Faith trusts exclusively in His finished work of redemption for salvation and not in our works. Hence, faith in Christ alone.

Yes not based on our merit, you already know I dont believe man can earn his salvation.

Yet you still create a check list of works that man must accomplish "after" faith in order to be saved, which results in human merit no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.

But you contract that poor protestant phrase of Faith only right in your own explanation of how we are saved.

Faith in Christ alone (Romans 4:5-6) does not equate to what James refers to as faith only. (James 2:24) You can't seem to balance this out.

"Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished WORK"

Amen!

Based on your own explanation of how salvation works. You admitted works must be involved for man to be saved. Which is exactly my position all along. Not works that we do, Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

Either Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone or else He also saves us based on the merits of our works as well. You can't have it both ways.

But works that God does for us and on us, John 6:28-29; Colossians 2:12

So God believes for you and baptizes you while you remain passive in the process? You try so hard to include faith as just "another" work in a series of works in quest to obtain salvation by works. You seem very determined to help Jesus save you by works. Guess who gets the credit? Oh the pride of man.

So my formula for Gods plan of salvation ie Jesus' gospel. Is Biblically sound, while your Faith Alone is nowhere found in the Bible.

Jesus did not teach salvation by works and His gospel lines up perfectly with the gospel I teach. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Salvation through belief/faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

This is Gods formula to receive salvation, Grace + obedient faith + Gods works.

Obedient faith is just another way for you to say faith + works. Works of obedience "follow" salvation through faith in Christ and do not precede it. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

The Bible teaches faith is a work. The protestants teach we are saved by faith only apart from ANY kind of works.

We are saved through faith "apart from works" (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which means we are not saved by faith AND works. If faith is just "another" work like all other works, then why the distinction? - "saved through faith, not works."

Since faith is a work of God, John 6:28-29.... this is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent, You teach faith ALONE without any kind of works save us. So you deny man is saved by that which you say we are saved!!!

Now you are being crafty. This is the work of God (in contrast with works of God - play on words) that you believe in Him whom He has sent. Nothing here about salvation by works. We are saved through faith and not by works. Period. Paul could not have been any clearer in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. You must have water in your ears. I think you get the pun.

Never does the Bible teach Belief alone.

Hmm..

Luke 8:12 - Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Believe + what? Believe "apart from additions or modifications." Believe alone.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Believes + what? Believes "apart from additions or modifications." Believes alone.

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Believes + what? Believes "apart from additions or modifications." Believes alone.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Believes + what? Believes "apart from additions or modifications." Believes alone. Get the picture?

Every one of those passages are referring to Biblical faith which is never alone.

Faith does not remain alone in the sense that it does not produce works. That's not the argument. The argument is are we saved through faith and not by works or are we saved through faith and works? I believe the former, but you believe the latter.

Faith that saves always is implied that it obeys God.

Faith that saves results in obedience to God. Again, that's not the argument. Salvation by grace through faith and not by works does not remove good works/acts of obedience from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

Why do you hate the idea of obedience to God so greatly? Obeying God is the most beautifull thing a person can do.

This is slander. I NEVER said that I hate the idea of obedience to God. Seeking salvation by works instead of by grace through faith is not obedience to God. Perverting the gospel is not obedience to God. Seeking to do God's will (your way and not His) is also not obedience to God. You seem to have more faith in your alleged obedience which culminates in salvation by works than you do in Christ.

Continued..

 

[Danthemailman]

No Sir, you cannot compare Jesus' baptism WHO IS WITHOUT SIN AND IS GOD, to the reason man requires baptism. Very poor exegesis.

I was not comparing reasons why. I was simply pointing out that Jesus was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" and that baptism is a "work of righteousness." Do you believe otherwise? Do you believe that baptism is a work of unrighteousness?

I will teach on baptism a little but I really just want you to give an answer on how one is saved without any works of any kind, only faith Alone.

I have explained this numerous times. You still have water in your ears. Why are you so hung up on works? You could NEVER do enough works to save yourself. Good works "follow" salvation through faith in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

No God does not teach in Colossians 2:12 that he already operated on us by Faith alone. The verse nowhere teaches this.

Again, Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Did you see that?

By the way when God operates on us. That is a WORK INVOLVED IN OUR SALVATION. Faith + works = salvation.

Guilty as charged! You teach salvation by works, yet we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6) But you teach otherwise. Good luck trying to save yourself by works!

Colossians 2:12
Buried with Him IN BAPTISM wherein also ye are risen with Him...

This scripture is clearly teaching we are buried with Christ in baptism Not BEFORE! Then in baptism we are RAISED WITH CHRIST JUST AS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. We also raise BORN AGAIN from the dead in BAPTISM never by Faith alone.

False. You are confusing the picture in water baptism with the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson correctly points out in Colossians 2:12 - Having been buried with him in baptism (συνταφεντες αυτω εν τω βαπτισματ)...Thayer's Lexicon says: "For all who in the rite of baptism are plunged under the water, thereby declare that they put faith in the expiatory death of Christ for the pardon of their past sins." Yes, and for all future sins also. This word gives Paul's vivid picture of baptism as a symbolic burial with Christ and resurrection also to newness of life in him as Paul shows by the addition "wherein ye were also raised with him" (εν ω κα συνηγερθητε)...In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity...Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart "through faith" (δια της πιστεως)..

Colossians 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

You want to die from the old man of sin and be born again with Christ? Gods word says it only occurs in baptism.

False. Water baptism is the picture, but not the reality. The reality is found in Spirit baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

....through the faith of the OPERATION of God,...

Through faith alone without baptism? NOT ACCORDING TO COLOSSIANS 2:12.

Since water baptism is the picture and not the reality, salvation is still through faith in Christ alone.

Just as faith precedes water baptism. Why does it? Because the only folks who will be water baptized are those who already have FAITH. No one without faith is going to believe that water baptism can save them. Just as Jesus COMMANDS in Mark 16:15-16.

Faith precedes water baptism and faith is not water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. There have been numerous people in various false religions and cults who have been water baptized, but have a spurious faith. You seem to be very naive to that fact.

Will you admit that the Baptist's go against the gospel of Jesus Christ by refusing to admit that water immersion is a DIRECT COMMAND OF OUR LORD? Why dont you teach the truth on water baptism?

Why are you so obsessed with attacking Baptists? Do you consider them your rival? Getting water baptized is a command of the Lord, yet there are commands that pertain to us in regards to becoming saved and there are commands that pertain to us after we have been saved. Water baptism is a command for those already saved.

Acts 10:48
And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

After they believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Colossians 2:12
...through the faith of the OPERATION/WORK OF GOD, who hath raised Him from the dead.

When does Colossians 2:12 teach God works His saving power on us?

Is it before baptism? Does this passage teach God operates on us at the instance of Belief?

No, we know exactly what this passage is teaching!

God operates on us with His power to make us born again in WATER BAPTISM.

Until you come to understand that water baptism is the picture and not the reality, you will continue to stumble.

Faith is a work of God.

Repantance is a work of God

Confession is a work of God

Baptism in Water is a Work of God, Colossians 2:12-13; Acts 2:38.

You error by turning "everything" into a "work for salvation," which is no surprise since you already admitted you teach salvation by works. Mere "mental assent" belief + moral self-reformation + lip service confession + being immersed in H20 does not = salvation.

All of these works of God must be OBEYED! Not only the work of Faith, as you teach in error.

All these works? sigh.. Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes saving faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) As I have explained numerous times before, your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Titus 3:5 are works of man. They are meritorious works of the law of Moses. Cannot save, Galatians 2:16

No they are not, but this erroneous argument is your way of trying to explain this verse away. Titus 3:5 clearly states that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness").

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.

The works we do in Acts 10:35 cannot be the same kind of works in Titus 3:5 because God accepts the obedient works we do in Acts 10:35 and condems the works we do in Titus 3:5.

Good grief! - face palm. They are the same kind of works. Acts 10:35 is simply giving a 'description' of those who God accepts - "they fear Him and work righteousness." This is 'descriptive' of those who are saved. Titus 3:5 is simply pointing out that we are not saved "by" works of righteousness which we have done. Same works of righteousness and works of righteousness "follow" having been saved through faith as the evidence of salvation, but not the cause of it.

Acts 10:35
....worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.
This verse proves that righteousness does not come by only belief as your sect teaches.

Since this is a 'descriptive' passage of scripture your argument is absolutely false.

You cannot get around the fact that Gods word teaches there are works/commandments of God, that when we obey do account us as righteous, justified. You can claim only faith alone can account a man righteous but you are calling God a liar when you do.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (plus works/commandments? NO simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith (plus works/commandments? NO simply faith) into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

James 2:24
Ye see then how by works (obedience) a man is JUSTIFIED and not by faith only.

For the upteenth time, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Why can you not see that James is not saying you are justified without obedience? James never once says man is counted as righteous/justified before obedience only after. Obedient Faith saves.

When will you get it through your head that James is discussing the evidence of faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

 

[Titus Dorn]

I was not comparing reasons why. I was simply pointing out that Jesus was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" and that baptism is a "work of righteousness." Do you believe otherwise? Do you believe that baptism is a work of unrighteousness?

I have explained this numerous times. You still have water in your ears. Why are you so hung up on works? You could NEVER do enough works to save yourself. Good works "follow" salvation through faith in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Again, Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Did you see that?

Guilty as charged! You teach salvation by works, yet we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6) But you teach otherwise. Good luck trying to save yourself by works!

False. You are confusing the picture in water baptism with the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson correctly points out in Colossians 2:12 - Having been buried with him in baptism (συνταφεντες αυτω εν τω βαπτισματ)...Thayer's Lexicon says: "For all who in the rite of baptism are plunged under the water, thereby declare that they put faith in the expiatory death of Christ for the pardon of their past sins." Yes, and for all future sins also. This word gives Paul's vivid picture of baptism as a symbolic burial with Christ and resurrection also to newness of life in him as Paul shows by the addition "wherein ye were also raised with him" (εν ω κα συνηγερθητε)...In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity...Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart "through faith" (δια της πιστεως)..

Colossians 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

False. Water baptism is the picture, but not the reality. The reality is found in Spirit baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

Since water baptism is the picture and not the reality, salvation is still through faith in Christ alone.

Faith precedes water baptism and faith is not water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. There have been numerous people in various false religions and cults who have been water baptized, but have a spurious faith. You seem to be very naive to that fact.

Why are you so obsessed with attacking Baptists? Do you consider them your rival? Getting water baptized is a command of the Lord, yet there are commands that pertain to us in regards to becoming saved and there are commands that pertain to us after we have been saved. Water baptism is a command for those already saved.

After they believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Until you come to understand that water baptism is the picture and not the reality, you will continue to stumble.

You error by turning "everything" into a "work for salvation," which is no surprise since you already admitted you teach salvation by works. Mere "mental assent" belief + moral self-reformation + lip service confession + being immersed in H20 does not = salvation.

All these works? sigh.. Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes saving faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) As I have explained numerous times before, your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

No they are not, but this erroneous argument is your way of trying to explain this verse away. Titus 3:5 clearly states that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness").

Good grief! - face palm. They are the same kind of works. Acts 10:35 is simply giving a 'description' of those who God accepts - "they fear Him and work righteousness." This is 'descriptive' of those who are saved. Titus 3:5 is simply pointing out that we are not saved "by" works of righteousness which we have done. Same works of righteousness and works of righteousness "follow" having been saved through faith as the evidence of salvation, but not the cause of it.

Since this is a 'descriptive' passage of scripture your argument is absolutely false.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (plus works/commandments? NO simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith (plus works/commandments? NO simply faith) into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

For the upteenth time, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

When will you get it through your head that James is discussing the evidence of faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

I am going to hold your feet to the fire on some issues you have not given an answer too.

You want to convince me that God does not require an obedient faith in order to receive Gods work of grace?

Show me how obeying a commandment can be done without obedience to that commandment?

You keep holding to a misguided gospel of faith only and no obedience to God.

If we are going to be saved without our obedience then Faith in God MUST be eliminated. That is the only gospel that can have no obedience to be saved.

A Gospel of Grace alone and zero Faith.

1John 3:23-24
And this is His COMMANDMENT: that we should believe(Faith) on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment.

Now He who keeps His commandments ABIDES IN HIM and HE IN HIM. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit who He has given us.

Give me a straight answer!

Can we not obey this direct COMMAND to believe(Faith) ?

Is it possible to do Gods commandments without obeying them?

You have not explained this Sir. How can commands be done by us without obeying them?

Don't go to another Bible verse that just mentions belief! That is dodging the question of the command to believe! Answer 1John 3:23-24!!!

There is no honest answer but obedience. All commandments are OBEYED. Simple fact. This contradicts your Baptist sects faith with no obedience to Gods commands doctrine for salvation.

Titus 3:5 are not good works. If they were the Bible would not condemn them! Are the works in Epheasians 2:8-9 good works that God accepts? Are the works in 2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a Holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

You think the works of righteousness in Titus 3:5 are actually righteous works that are approved by God, according to you they just don't save us.

Wrong Sir, they are condemned works of man just as Epheasians 2:8-9 and 2Timothy 1:9.

There are those who think their own works can save them, Titus 3:5.
What do you call a person who thinks they can do enough "good" to merit their salvation? SELF-RIGHTEOUS

That is the works that are condemned in Titus 3:5. Folks who are self righteous think their own working is righteous.

Since all of Gods commandments are righteous they that obey them are righteous. If you do Gods righteous commands you would be working righteousness, Acts 10:35. These works are approved by God. Titus 3:5 were not approved therefore they are not Gods righteous commands. Proof,
Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke 1:6 = Acts 10:35

Titus 3:5 = Epheasians 2:8-9; 2Timohty 1:9

So, Titus 3:5 are self righteous works that men work not according to His righteousness. That is why they cannot save. Just as the works in Epheasians 2:8-9 will not save and God will never approve of. These are works of merit.

Romans 2:7-8
Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

But to those who are self-seeking, (Titus 3:5) and do not OBEY the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath.

Works that God accepts are only works that come from His commandments that we obey.

Deuteronomy 6:25
Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are carefully to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He commanded us. These are true works of righteousness not Titus 3:5.

Deuteronomy 6:25 = Luke 1:6 = Acts 10:35 = 1John 3:7
These works of righteousness define 1John 3:7,

1John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.

Now with better understanding that there is a difference in works we can see Titus 3:5 does not fit with Luke 1:6; Deuteronomy 6:25; Acts 10:35; 1John 3:7.

Titus 3:5 is in its proper place with, Epheasians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; 2Timothy 1:9. These are works of man's righteousness.

Want more proof that "works of righteousness" , Titus 3:5 are not obedient but meritorious works of corrupt men that God will never approve of? They are in fact works that man can boast, Epheasians 2:8-9 because they are mans works of his righteousness not Gods righteousness.


Psalm 120:172
My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all your commandments are righteousness.

When we obey His commandments, His commandments are righteous. We are accounted righteous by obeying His righteous commands.

Examples of works of Gods righteousness:
We are charged to do these,

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

1John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who PRACTICES righteousness is born of Him.

1John 3:7;10
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

V10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not PRACTISE righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love God. If we do not obey His righteous commandments like 1John 3:23-24. We cannot be accounted righteous.

Passages that teach man is not isaved by his own works of righteousness, Titus 3:5; Epheasians 2:8-9. Are passages that teach we are not saved by works of the law of Moses or the works of man's righteousness. Examples:

Works of the law of Moses:
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Titus 3:5 not works of righteousness before God but before men,
Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their OWN righteousness have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.

Epheasians 2:8-9
....not of works( meritorious works of man not Gods righteous works) lest any should man boast.

More examples of works that do save:

Acts 2:40-41
And with many words he testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

The main issue teaching protestant's if word definition.

The do not define saving faith Biblically.

Nor do they understand that works is not a dirty word.

Works properly defined we learn that there are all kinds of works taught throughout the Bible. Not just meritorious works.

Biblical fact:

Faith but not alone accounts us righteous, Romans 4:3

Obedient works also account us righteous, 1John 3:23-24; Acts 17:39; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:37; Mark 16:15-16; Colossians 2:12

The Bible never taught faith alone ever saved anyone, James 2:24

You will convince me your gospel is Biblical if you can prove James taught we are righteous before we obey Gods commandments, 1John 3:23-24.

Give book, chapter and verse were James taught anywhere in the entire book of James we are already righteous by Faith apart from obeying God's righteous works? And I'll become a baptist.

I want to address the subject of your sects teaching that water baptism is a picture and not for the forgiveness of sins.

Until you come to understand that water baptism is the picture and not the reality, you will continue to stumble.

But not yet. I want the conversions of the book of Acts to be debated between us in future posts. I can prove your Holy Spirit baptism salvation and your redefinition of water baptism to be unscriptual.

 

[Danthemailman]

I am going to hold your feet to the fire on some issues you have not given an answer too.

You can hold my feet to the fire all you want, but I have given you answers, but apparently, you are just not hearing my answers. You seem desperate to have that "gotcha" moment.

You want to convince me that God does not require an obedient faith in order to receive Gods work of grace?

We have access by grace into faith (Romans 5:2) and not by faith + obedient works which "follow." Cart before the horse.

Show me how obeying a commandment can be done without obedience to that commandment?

Who said it can?

You keep holding to a misguided gospel of faith only and no obedience to God.

The obedient act that saves is the obedient act to choose to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." This is what you just can't seem to figure out.

If we are going to be saved without our obedience then Faith in God MUST be eliminated. That is the only gospel that can have no obedience to be saved.

Again, the obedience that saves is the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Multiple acts of obedience which "follow" are works and we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

A Gospel of Grace alone and zero Faith.

A gospel of salvation by grace through faith and not by works, that you refuse to accept because your faith is in works for salvation and is not in CHRIST ALONE.

1 John 3:23-24
And this is His COMMANDMENT: that we should believe (Faith) on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment.

Now He who keeps His commandments ABIDES IN HIM and HE IN HIM. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit who He has given us.

Who truly loves one another? Lost unbelievers or saved believers? Do believers receive the love of God in their hearts before or after receiving the Holy Spirit? (Romans 5:5) Do we keep His commandments beyond believing in order to become saved or because we are saved? 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" -guard, observe, watch over) His commandments.

Give me a straight answer!

I already have.

Can we not obey this direct COMMAND to believe (Faith)?

We obey this command to believe when we choose to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16)

Is it possible to do Gods commandments without obeying them?

No. Yet we are not obedient 100% of the time to 100% of God's commandments. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time like Jesus Christ.

You have not explained this Sir. How can commands be done by us without obeying them?

What is there for me to explain? I've said numerous times that there are commands to be obeyed (in order to become saved) and there are commands to be obeyed (after we have been saved) but you seem to mix this up. A command cannot be done without obeying it.

Don't go to another Bible verse that just mentions belief! That is dodging the question of the command to believe! Answer 1John 3:23-24!!!

So you would rather just ignore multiple Bible verses (which are complete statements) that just mention belief "apart from additions or modifications?" Is that your motivation for stressing that belief is a "command?" Turn it into just "another" command in a series of commands in order to be saved by works? That seems to be your continued mantra.

There is no honest answer but obedience. All commandments are OBEYED. Simple fact.

Doh..

This contradicts your Baptist sects faith with no obedience to Gods commands doctrine for salvation.

No it doesn't! When are you going to get it through your head that there are commands for unbelievers to become saved and commands for believers after becoming saved.

Just like there is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

..and doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Titus 3:5 are not good works. If they were the Bible would not condemn them!

They are good works (works of righteousness) and they are not condemned. Paul just stresses that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. Why do you turn "works of righteousness" into works of unrighteousness? Answer: To fit your doctrine. Just like Paul says we are saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10) but he DOES NOT say that we are saved BY good works. Peter is giving a description of believers in Acts 10:35, they fear God and work righteousness, not in order to become saved, but BECAUSE they are saved. Simple!

Are the works in Epheasians 2:8-9 good works that God accepts? Are the works in 2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a Holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

These are not works that God rejects as bad works just because we are not saved by works. We are to do good works with the right motive and purpose. To try and earn salvation through them or attempt to help Jesus save you through them is the wrong motivation!

You think the works of righteousness in Titus 3:5 are actually righteous works that are approved by God, according to you they just don't save us.

Correct. Why else would God call them works of "righteousness" if He actually meant works of "unrighteousness?'

Wrong Sir, they are condemned works of man just as Epheasians 2:8-9 and 2 Timothy 1:9.

False, but you have to believe that in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine. You are a prisoner of your erroneous gospel.

There are those who think their own works can save them, Titus 3:5.
What do you call a person who thinks they can do enough "good" to merit their salvation? SELF-RIGHTEOUS

Deja vu.

That is the works that are condemned in Titus 3:5. Folks who are self righteous think their own working is righteous.

Works of righteousness "in of themselves" are not condemned. Salvation by works is condemned. Those who trust in works for salvation are self righteous.

Since all of Gods commandments are righteous they that obey them are righteous. If you do Gods righteous commands you would be working righteousness, Acts 10:35. These works are approved by God. Titus 3:5 were not approved therefore they are not Gods righteous commands.

That's a lot of splitting hairs in your desperate attempt to promote salvation by works. BTW have you perfectly obeyed ALL of God's commands 100% of the time? Are you sinless?

Proof,
Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke 1:6 = Acts 10:35

Titus 3:5 = Epheasians 2:8-9; 2Timohty 1:9

More bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Notice in Luke 1:6 that the scripture doesn't say that Zacharias and Elisabeth were sinless but rather blameless. Through their faith in the blood sacrifices (which were symbolic of Christ), God put the blame for their sins on the Lamb. (John 1:29) They accepted God's way and sought to live by it, but without faith, they could not be considered blameless by committing theirselves to walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. Ecclesiastes 7:20 - Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So much for Zacharias and Elisabeth being righteous (in right standing with God) through their own goodness. (Isaiah 64:6; Rom. 3:10), but their faith was accounted to them as righteousness, just as with Noah (Hebrews 11:7) and Abraham (Romans 4:3). Even under the Old Testament, the only way to be in right standing with God was by faith (Habakkuk 2:4; Galatians 3:11). No one could keep the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), so faith had to be put in the mercy and forgiveness of God which was illustrated by the Old Testament blood sacrifices. The Jewish nation as a whole lacked the understanding of justification by faith (Romans 10:1-4) and had fallen into the deception that they could be righteous by keeping the law. (John 7:19)

So, Titus 3:5 are self righteous works that men work not according to His righteousness. That is why they cannot save. Just as the works in Epheasians 2:8-9 will not save and God will never approve of. These are works of merit.

Titus 3:5 are authentic works of righteousness yet do not save because we are not saved by works in general, which would be of merit if we were saved by works "in addition" to salvation through faith.

Romans 2:7-8
Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immorality.

But to those who are self-seeking, (Titus 3:5) and do not OBEY the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath.

Another example of confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages of scripture convey is though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) without applying your twist.

Continued..

 

[Danthemailman]

Works that God accepts are only works that come from His commandments that we obey.

Good works/works of righteousness are not excluded, yet God does not accept these works as the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but as the fruit of salvation. Learn the difference.

Deuteronomy 6:25
Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are carefully to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He commanded us. These are true works of righteousness not Titus 3:5.

Deuteronomy 6:25 = Luke 1:6 = Acts 10:35 = 1John 3:7
These works of righteousness define 1John 3:7,

1John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.

Now with better understanding that there is a difference in works we can see Titus 3:5 does not fit with Luke 1:6; Deuteronomy 6:25; Acts 10:35; 1John 3:7.

Titus 3:5 is in its proper place with, Epheasians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; 2Timothy 1:9. These are works of man's righteousness.

You really need to stop twisting the scriptures in order to try and make them fit your biased church doctrine. Twisting the scriptures is not obeying God's commandments and Paul gives a warning about it.

Want more proof that "works of righteousness" , Titus 3:5 are not obedient but meritorious works of corrupt men that God will never approve of? They are in fact works that man can boast, Epheasians 2:8-9 because they are mans works of his righteousness not Gods righteousness.

You are yet to offer proof and your continued twisting of scripture is deplorable.

Psalm 120:172
My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all your commandments are righteousness.

When we obey His commandments, His commandments are righteous. We are accounted righteous by obeying His righteous commands.

So now you are seeking salvation by commandment keeping under the old covenant of law? Do you make a habit of mixing the old and new covenants?

Examples of works of Gods righteousness:
We are charged to do these,

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

1John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who PRACTICES righteousness is born of Him.

1John 3:7;10
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

V10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not PRACTISE righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love God.

This is 'descriptive' of children of God. They work righteousness, "practice" righteousness (and not sin) and they love their brother BECAUSE they are children of God and not in order to become children of God.

If we do not obey His righteous commandments like 1John 3:23-24. We cannot be accounted righteous.

Just the opposite of what Paul said in Romans 4:5-6 and Titus 3:5. You are deceived sir.

Passages that teach man is not is not saved by his own works of righteousness, Titus 3:5; Epheasians 2:8-9. Are passages that teach we are not saved by works of the law of Moses or the works of man's righteousness. Examples:

Works of the law of Moses:
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED.

Titus 3:5 not works of righteousness before God but before men,
Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their OWN righteousness have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

As I already explained before, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). Roman Catholics make the same argument about works that you make. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works a Christian could accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith and works. Your argument (just like the same argument from Roman Catholics) amounts to salvation by works no matter how much you both try and sugar coat it.

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law, but includes works in general. In 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. Likewise, in Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. so Paul covers ALL works.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.

Abraham was BEFORE the law so how could this be works of the law of Moses, which was not yet instituted? Get real.

Epheasians 2:8-9
....not of works (meritorious works of man not Gods righteous works) lest any should man boast.

I hear this same bogus argument from Roman Catholics. Did Paul say faith "and" works of any kind in Ephesians 2:8,9? No he didn't! Just read and accept it for what it actually says and quit trying to "add" your personal commentary.

More examples of works that do save:

Acts 2:40-41
And with many words he testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Being saved "from this perverse generation" has nothing to do with these people saving themselves by works. Those who gladly received his word (through repentance/faith) were added to them. Just like in Acts 4:4, we read - But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand. In Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. Nothing there about works salvation either.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

This is a 'descriptive' and not 'prescriptive' passage of scripture.

Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

This is associated with ongoing sanctification and not justification. You need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

The main issue teaching protestant's if word definition.

It's not faith + if but if confirms faith.

The do not define saving faith Biblically.

Campbellites basically define faith as works.

Nor do they understand that works is not a dirty word.

Works is not a dirty word as long as you are not teaching salvation by works.

Works properly defined we learn that there are all kinds of works taught throughout the Bible. Not just meritorious works.

ANY works that we must accomplish AFTER faith in order to become saved would be meritorious works. Your argument is a load of sugar coated double talk.

Biblical fact:

Faith but not alone accounts us righteous, Romans 4:3

Romans 4:3 says Abraham believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Romans 4:6 - God imputes righteousness "apart from works." Faith alone.

Obedient works also account us righteous, 1John 3:23-24; Acts 17:39; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:37; Mark 16:15-16; Colossians 2:12

Show me the exact wording that works are "accounted for righteousness" in those passages of scripture. Now go back and read Romans 4:2-6 very slowly and prayerfully. BTW Acts chapter 17 ends with verse 34. Which Bible are you reading?

The Bible never taught faith alone ever saved anyone, James 2:24

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation demonstrates that it's alive by producing works. So authentic faith in Christ does not remain alone "barren of works" yet it trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Learn the difference.

You will convince me your gospel is Biblical if you can prove James taught we are righteous before we obey Gods commandments, 1John 3:23-24.

Which commands? Believe and love one another? How much love does one have to show for another before they are finally saved based on the merits of their efforts to love? Do saved believers love one another because they are saved or do lost unbelievers love one another in order to become saved?

Give book, chapter and verse were James taught anywhere in the entire book of James we are already righteous by Faith apart from obeying God's righteous works? And I'll become a baptist.

James speaks more on Christian conduct/works. Do you reject the teachings of Paul? (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) Oh that's right. You simply explain these passages of scripture away to make them fit your biased church doctrine. You don't need to become a baptist in order to become a believer. I will never understand your absolute obsession with baptists.

I want to address the subject of your sects teaching that water baptism is a picture and not for the forgiveness of sins.

Water baptism is "in regards to" the remission of sins received upon repentance/faith but is not "in order to obtain" the remission of sins.

But not yet. I want the conversions of the book of Acts to be debated between us in future posts. I can prove your Holy Spirit baptism salvation and your redefinition of water baptism to be unscriptual.

You have not proved any of your claims yet, so I don't expect you to prove anything about Holy Spirit baptism either. It almost makes me laugh because I've been in numerous discussions over the internet with multiple Campbellites over the years who were all over zealous (just like you) and believed they were right and could persuade me to change my mind and become a Campbellite who "trusts in water and works for salvation," but I can assure you it will NEVER happen.

 

[Titus Dorn]

I certainly am not looking for a gotcha. You prove yourself wrong every time you contradict your gospel of Faith only and no works. You should listen to yourself sometime.

I will be quoting from the Stardard Manual for Baptist churches, written by Edward T. Hiscox DD. 1890 Edition

Chapter 8 CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

Page 48 Justification
"We believe the Scriptures teach that the great gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believe in Him is justification; that justification includes the pardon of sin and the gift of eternal life on principles of righteousness; that is bestowed, not in consideration OF ANY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE(reference to Titus 3:5 ) but solely through faith In Christ; by means of which faith his perfect righteousness is freely imputed to us by God; that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity."

A confession from the Baptist sect that there are ZERO works of obedience to be saved. This proves Baptist doctrine to be unscriptual man made illogical contradictory gobbledy gook! For as DANTHEMAILMAN admitted we are saved by OBEDIENCE TO Gods commandment to believe, have Faith in Christ.1John 3:23-24. Therefore we are saved by an obedient faith. Not faith with no obedience, FAITH ALONE!

Now the very next paragraph Mr. Hiscox is going to contradict himself. He said not by any works of righteousness that we have done Now he will say the opposite and include OBEDIENCE for salvation.

Page 49 THE FREENESS OF SALVATION

"We believe the Scriptures teach that the blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel: that it is the immediate duty of all to accept them by a cordial, penitent and OBEDIENT FAITH; and that nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth but his own determined depravity and voluntary rejection of the gospel; which rejection involves him in an aggravated condemnation.

For anyone seeking the truth and reading this discussion/debate that is confused on who is teaching the true Biblical gospel. Look no further for Danthemailman has proven his own Baptist doctrine of Faith alone and no obedience to be one big exegetical MESS!!!! Contradiction after contradiction!!!

I will prove Danthemailman contradicts himself,

Salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone is not unscriptural. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works/saved by grace through faith, not works. What does that leave you with? Saved through faith and not by works.

There it is saved by faith and not by works. Dan has said numerous times there is ZERO obedience before one is saved by faith only. He quotes James as teaching obedience only comes after one is saved never before. Except when he CHANGES HIS WHOLE DOCTRINE AND SAYS JUST THE OPPOSITE!!!!

We have access by grace into faith (Romans 5:2) and not by faith + obedient works which "follow." Cart before the horse.

He said it again! NOT BY FAITH + WORKS

Now read him contradict his faith + no obedience doctrine

NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith and works. Your argument amounts to salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.

Wait for it here it comes,

Obedient faith is just another way for you to say faith + works. Works of obedience "follow" salvation through faith in Christ and do not precede it. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

You got Danthemailman teaching ZERO OBEDIENCE TO BE SAVED. only Faith + ZERO OBEDIENCE ZERO WORKS.

Now for what you all need to see in Baptist false doctrine, the absolute contradictory mess of the false teaching of Martin Luther and John Smyth that Danthemailman has been indoctrinated into. Faith alone is goobledy gook!

Again, the obedience that saves is the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Multiple acts of obedience which "follow" are works and we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Danthemailman speaks out of both sides of his mouth! All Baptist doctrine contradicts itself because it is not from God but man's private interpretation of the scriptures.

There is no consistency in the illogical unbiblical doctrine of faith alone! It is absurd!

Here he does it again, continued on post #193

 

[Danthemailman]

I certainly am not looking for a gotcha. You prove yourself wrong every time you contradict your gospel of Faith only and no works. You should listen to yourself sometime.

I will be quoting from the Stardard Manual for Baptist churches, written by Edward T. Hiscox DD. 1890 Edition

Chapter 8 CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

Page 48 Justification
"We believe the Scriptures teach that the great gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believe in Him is justification; that justification includes the pardon of sin and the gift of eternal life on principles of righteousness; that is bestowed, not in consideration OF ANY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE (reference to Titus 3:5 ) but solely through faith In Christ; by means of which faith his perfect righteousness is freely imputed to us by God; that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity."

A confession from the Baptist sect that there are ZERO works of obedience to be saved. This proves Baptist doctrine to be unscriptual man made illogical contradictory gobbledy gook! For as DANTHEMAILMAN admitted we are saved by OBEDIENCE TO Gods commandment to believe, have Faith in Christ.1John 3:23-24. Therefore we are saved by an obedient faith. Not faith with no obedience, FAITH ALONE!

Now the very next paragraph Mr. Hiscox is going to contradict himself. He said not by any works of righteousness that we have done Now he will say the opposite and include OBEDIENCE for salvation.

Page 49 THE FREENESS OF SALVATION

"We believe the Scriptures teach that the blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel: that it is the immediate duty of all to accept them by a cordial, penitent and OBEDIENT FAITH; and that nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth but his own determined depravity and voluntary rejection of the gospel; which rejection involves him in an aggravated condemnation.

For anyone seeking the truth and reading this discussion/debate that is confused on who is teaching the true Biblical gospel. Look no further for Danthemailman has proven his own Baptist doctrine of Faith alone and no obedience to be one big exegetical MESS!!!! Contradiction after contradiction!!!

I will prove Danthemailman contradicts himself,

There it is saved by faith and not by works. Dan has said numerous times there is ZERO obedience before one is saved by faith only. He quotes James as teaching obedience only comes after one is saved never before. Except when he CHANGES HIS WHOLE DOCTRINE AND SAYS JUST THE OPPOSITE!!!!

He said it again! NOT BY FAITH + WORKS

Now read him contradict his faith + no obedience doctrine

Wait for it here it comes,

You got Danthemailman teaching ZERO OBEDIENCE TO BE SAVED. only Faith + ZERO OBEDIENCE ZERO WORKS.

Now for what you all need to see in Baptist false doctrine, the absolute contradictory mess of the false teaching of Martin Luther and John Smyth that Danthemailman has been indoctrinated into. Faith alone is goobledy gook!

Danthemailman speaks out of both sides of his mouth! All Baptist doctrine contradicts itself because it is not from God but man's private interpretation of the scriptures.

There is no consistency in the illogical unbiblical doctrine of faith alone! It is absurd!

Here he does it again,

You have demonstrated over and over again that you don't truly understand what I mean by salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and it's only gobbly gook to the natural man who does not understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14) You have proved absolutely nothing, except that you teach salvation by works and often resort to straw man arguments (and even slander at times) and you resent Martin Luther and Baptists.

I do not speak out of both sides of my mouth. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) The obedience that saves is the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow."

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)

You just don't understand that it is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Simple! Too simple! Let me know when you are ready to BELIEVE.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Continued from post # 191

Here he does it again,[/QUOTE]

What is there for me to explain? I've said numerous times that there are commands to be obeyed (in order to become saved) and there are commands to be obeyed (after we have been saved) but you seem to mix this up. A command cannot be done without obeying it.

Folks denominationalism is why there is so much confusion among "Christendom"

There is only one gospel that comes from the mind of God. And it is not found in Catholicism or Protestantism.

Danthemailman lost his position when he told the truth that 1John 3:23-24 is an act of obedience that must be done to be saved ie Obedient Faith Saves
Danthemailman just taught the very Faith that he has been saying does not save and is not Biblical saving faith. Wow!

We are saved by Grace + Faith + Gods works of righteousness that we OBEY. Just as Danthemailman admitted finally.

I am ready to debate you on actual conversion in Acts.

We will see who has the truth of how folks got saved in the first century.

Was it by Faith alone?

Or an obedient faith?

Dan takes both positions. O, brother!

I take one, Faith + obedience. Let's see who rightly divides Gods word.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Sorry Danthemailman I'm not the one contradicting myself.

Obedient faith is just another way for you to say faith + works. Works of obedience "follow" salvation through faith in Christ and do not precede it. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

You have said over and over there is no obedient faith to be saved! That obedience comes after we are saved by faith alone. Except when you completely change your story,

What is there for me to explain? I've said numerous times that there are commands to be obeyed (in order to become saved) and there are commands to be obeyed (after we have been saved) but you seem to mix this up. A command cannot be done without obeying it.

WHAAATTT? Dan, friend that false doctrine has got you not knowing what you are even saying!

180 degree shift in your whole argument.

You cannot argue my position and yours and be right! Come on Dan, your smarter than this.

 

[Danthemailman]

Folks denominationalism is why there is so much confusion among "Christendom"

There is only one gospel that comes from the mind of God. And it is not found in Catholicism or Protestantism.

Danthemailman lost his position when he told the truth that 1John 3:23-24 is an act of obedience that must be done to be saved ie Obedient Faith Saves
Danthemailman just taught the very Faith that he has been saying does not save and is not Biblical saving faith. Wow!

We are saved by Grace + Faith + Gods works of righteousness that we OBEY. Just as Danthemailman admitted finally.

I am ready to debate you on actual conversion in Acts.

We will see who has the truth of how folks got saved in the first century.

Was it by Faith alone?

Or an obedient faith?

Dan takes both positions. O, brother!

I take one, Faith + obedience. Let's see who rightly divides Gods word.

I lost nothing and as I said before, I could continue to explain the truth to you until I'm blue in the face but you still just WON'T GET IT. You are thoroughly indoctrinated. You are not fooling any folks on this forum who truly believe the gospel. The gospel that comes from the mind of God and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) is not found in Campbellism. Your salvation by "obedient faith" pitch is just another way of saying salvation by faith AND WORKS which goes against scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..).

You continue to confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel unto salvation with multiple acts of obedience/works which are produced after salvation. Been there, done that prior to my conversion, so I know exactly where you are coming from. As I told you before, I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ so I thoroughly understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

 

[Danthemailman]

Sorry Danthemailman I'm not the one contradicting myself.

You have said over and over there is no obedient faith to be saved! That obedience comes after we are saved by faith alone. Except when you completely change your story,

WHAAATTT? Dan, friend that false doctrine has got you not knowing what you are even saying!

180 degree shift in your whole argument.

You cannot argue my position and yours and be right! Come on Dan, your smarter than this.

Yes you do contradict yourself. You teach we are saved by works, yet these works are not meritorious towards obtaining salvation is a contradiction. I've heard other Campbellites contradict themselves as well by making such statements as these below:

"We are not saved by works, but we must do good works in order to become saved."

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

There has been no shift in my argument or a change in my story. I know exactly what I believe and have known and throughly understood what I believe for many years now. You just cannot sufficiently comprehend what I have been explaining to you and it would appear that you also like to play games and have even demonstrated dishonesty through slander at times just to make it look like you have won your argument. I'm sorry, but I am just not interested in your silly games or your childish rants.

You will NEVER convince me to "withdraw" my faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation in order to trust in works for salvation instead and apparently I will not convince you to stop trusting in works for salvation and choose to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation instead, so this conversation is a waste of time and is going nowhere.

 

[Titus Dorn]

You destroyed your entire doctrine of saved by Faith only and no works/obedience, when you admitted you MUST BE OBEDIENT TO THE COMMAND TO BELIEVE/FAITH, 1John 3:23-24.

You really need to make up your mind Danthemailman.

You claim ALL works preceding salvation MUST BE WORKS OF MERIT. BUT YOU JUST ADMITTED THAT WE DO A WORK TO BE SAVED!!! You said believe/Faith, is a command we must OBEY! Because it is a command in 1John 3:23-24. So, if they are you are EARNING YOUR SALVATION BY OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMAND TO BELIEVE!!! 1John 3:23-24.

Why don't you just consider that what I am telling you about works, that not all are meritorious before salvation? Obedient works do not earn salvation.

Perfect example, 1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

You know good and well that obey the commandment to believe have Faith does not earn you salvation.

But you refuse to see that other commandments like repentance, confess and baptism can also be obedient works and not meritorious in nature.

If obeying the command to believe is not earning salvation, then so can obeying Jesus and being baptized for the remission of sins not be earning salvation.

Would you rather stay in a church that is non-essential to be saved and teaches a gospel that is not Biblical?

Come on. Don't die in a sect that teaches error!

"We are not saved by works, but we must do good works in order to become saved."

We are NOT SAVED BY OUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, Titus 3:5.

That is what I mean. That is not a contradiction. That is what the scriptures teach.

Yes we must DO works to be saved. But what KIND, Danthemailman? OBEDIENT WORKS, that God has commanded us like, 1John 3:23-24.
Don't change the meaning of my words, and create a straw man argument.

Your doctrine contradicts itself. The true gospel revealed by Gods apostles through the Holy Spirit, Does Not. That is the gospel I follow and teach. Not a gospel of faith alone and no obedience, (except when you contradict your own gospel and change the formula and include obedience) that is found nowhere in the new testament.

 

[Titus Dorn]

You will NEVER convince me to "withdraw" my faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation in order to trust in works for salvation instead and apparently I will not convince you to stop trusting in works for salvation and choose to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation instead, so this conversation is a waste of time and is going nowhere.

Trusting in works is trusting in man's own works. These cannot save because they are working through merit. The scriptures condemn these works of men in the following verses,

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 4:2

2 Timohty 1:9

Titus 3:5

Galatians 2:16

Romans 10:3 etc.

The gospel includes obedience to Gods commands. When we obey Gods commands we work(obey) the works of God. We are not doing man's meritorious works or self-righteous works when we obey God. Examples of obedient works to Gods gospel.

1John 3:23-24 faith

Acts 17:30 repentance

Confession of faith in Christ, Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:37

Water baptism for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Acts 10:47-48; Acts 16:30-34; Acts 8:12-13; 1Peter 3:20-21; Colossians 2:12-13

After we have obeyed the gospel we then continue to obey Gods commandments through an obedient faith.

1Timothy 6:18

No one can keep Jesus' gospel perfectly. That is why God instructs christians to repent for forgiveness of our sins, 1John 1:9

To be saved everyone is required to obey all of His commandments. These commandments can be obeyed. It is not about becoming perfect and keeping His law(law of Christ) perfectly to be saved. That would defeat the purpose of needing a Savior.

Primary obedience to His gospel is something all can accomplish without sinless perfection.

Hear, Faith, repentance, confession, water baptism.

After salvation continue walking in the light. When we sin against God by breaking his law(new will and testament of Christ, Galatians 6:2) We ask for forgiveness through prayer, 1John 1:9.

Stay walking in the light as He is in the light. And as Revelation 2:10 says
...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life.

Jesus' gospel is logical, does not contradict itself like the doctrines of Sola Fide.

 

[Danthemailman]

You destroyed your entire doctrine of saved by Faith only and no works/obdience, when you admitted you MUST BE OBEDIENT TO THE COMMAND TO BELIEVE/FAITH, 1John 3:23-24.

I have stated numerous times that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation "apart from works of obedience" which "follow" and Paul agrees. (Romans 4:5-6) Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) is not the same as multiple acts of obedience which "follow" believing the gospel and receiving salvation.

You really need to make up your mind Danthemailman.

I have made up my mind. You need to stop making false accusations against me. I see from another thread that you don't appreciate false accusations either.

It's as plain as the nose on your face. The law of Moses has ended for ALL.

For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Faith is here.

I do not want to hear another false accusation against me from you.

You play the same game in a desperate effort to win your argument at all costs as these Seventh Day Adventists play in that thread.

You claim ALL works preceding salvation MUST BE WORKS OF MERIT. BUT YOU JUST ADMITTED THAT WE DO A WORK TO BE SAVED!!! You said believe/Faith, is a command we must OBEY! Because it is a command in 1John 3:23-24. So, if they are you are EARNING YOUR SALVATION BY OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMAND TO BELIEVE!!! 1John 3:23-24.

Since you label EVERYTHING as a "work" then there will be no reasoning with you.

Why don't you just consider that what I am telling you about works, that not all are meritorious before salvation? Obedient works do not earn salvation.

By the time you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation and basically define faith "as" works and turn confession (the word of faith in our mouth) into a work for salvation and water baptism which "follows" saving faith in Christ into a prerequisite for salvation (not to mentioned how many works you must accomplish in order to maintain your salvation) you have a perverted gospel of salvation by faith "and" works which then become meritorious towards receiving salvation. Period.

Your doctrine contradicts itself. The true gospel revealed by Gods apostles through the Holy Spirit, Does Not. That is the gospel I follow and teach.

It's your doctrine that contradicts itself and you follow and teach a "works based" false gospel as taught in Campbellism and not the true gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Not a gospel of faith alone and no obedience, (except when you contradict your own gospel and change the formula and include obedience) that is found nowhere in the new testament.

Man is saved through faith in Christ alone apart from the merit of obedience/works which "follow." (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) I'm sorry that does not tickle your ears and feed your pride, but it's the truth. I hope and pray that someday you will finally accept the truth.

 

[Titus Dorn]

I have stated numerous times that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation "apart from works of obedience" which "follow" and Paul agrees. (Romans 4:5-6) Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) is not the same as multiple acts of obedience which "follow" believing the gospel and receiving salvation.

I have made up my mind. You need to stop making false accusations against me. I see from another thread that you don't appreciate false accusations either.

You play the same game in a desperate effort to win your argument at all costs as these Seventh Day Adventists play in that thread.

Since you label EVERYTHING as a "work" then there will be no reasoning with you.

By the time you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation and basically define faith "as" works and turn confession (the word of faith in our mouth) into a work for salvation and water baptism which "follows" saving faith in Christ into a prerequisite for salvation (not to mentioned how many works you must accomplish in order to maintain your salvation) you have a perverted gospel of salvation by faith "and" works which then become meritorious towards receiving salvation. Period.

It's your doctrine that contradicts itself and you follow and teach a "works based" false gospel as taught in Campbellism and not the true gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Man is saved through faith in Christ alone apart from the merit of obedience/works which "follow." (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) I'm sorry that does not tickle your ears and feed your pride, but it's the truth. I hope and pray that someday you will finally accept the truth.

Read my posts 191 193 194 You will see the contradictions in Danthemailman's unbiblical man made doctrine from the baptist creed books and manuals.

I wanted to believe that you were searching for truth.

I've lost all confidence in you. I now believe you would rather believe a lie than turn from error and follow the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm really discouraged with you Danthemailman. I was hoping you would be a man of integrity. Your not dead yet. God is still giving you opportunity to repent and obey His gospel. I hope whatever stumbling block is in your way will be removed. Your heart will only become harder the longer you resist the Lords invitation. What is it? Money? Pride? Loved ones?

My position is that the Bible teaches we are saved by Grace(Gods works) + Obedient Faith(Romans 16:26 but now made manifest and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.)

I am ready to debate on Your doctrines of receiving Holy Spirit baptism the instant you Believe in Christ.

Also Your sects doctrine of water baptism as only a picture or symbolism of already being saved.

There are commandments given by God that we are COMMANDED TO KEEP. Yes this is Biblical new testament teaching. But just because God requires us to OBEY His law(Christ's law) does not mean it is meritorious by our obedience. Here is the the obvious reason why.

Salvation cannot be obtained without Jesus' shed blood on the cross. Man has sinned. No amount of obedience can cover those sins. Therefore God requires us to obey His commandments. And if we do not. He will not save us. But if we do keep His commandments, He ,not our works of obedience will still be the only source of power to remit our sins.

God requires obedience to Him, so that He will save us. But no amount of obedient works to His commandments save ourselves. Obedience to God saves by God saving us. Not because our obedience alone saves us. It's that simple.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift from God, not of works(meritorious) lest anyone should boast.