How one is saved.....

[Danthemailman]

You should find it interesting that Paul never said in Romans 1:16 believes ALONE.

Paul, when he uses verses that say faith saves us.

He never is referring to faith alone, without obedience.

Paul teaches the faith that saves is an obedient faith, Galatians 5:6.

Danthemailman, Can I be saved by Faith Alone if I do not repent?

When you teach Atheists do you first tell them to repent before you convince them there is a God?

In Romans 1:16, you should find it interesting that Paul said BELIEVES “apart from additions or modifications” and not believes + something else.

In multiple other verses Paul also states that we are saved through faith “apart from additions or modifications” (Romans 3:26-28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9 etc..) and you don’t need to add the word “alone”next to faith in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the word faith “stands alone” in these passages of scripture in connection with obtaining salvation. So it’s faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

You continue to confuse an empty profession of faith/dead faith that producers no works with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The latter is authentic faith that results in producing works yet we are still saved through faith in Christ and not by works Again, faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and this kind of faith is not a bare profession of faith and it also works through love and produces good works. Stop putting the cart before the horse. Atheists need to change their mind and believe that there is a God before they can change their mind further and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation to be saved. None of this is hard to understand. It’s just hard for you to accept because of your indoctrination.

 

[Titus Dorn]

In Romans 1:16, you should find it interesting that Paul said BELIEVES “apart from additions or modifications”
and not believes + something else

Paul means belief only in Romans 1:16? Or is this an obedient faith Paul is referring too?

Also you ignore faith being something Paul is telling us we must DO. Which contradicts your teaching that man plays no part in his salvation.

Do you want to continue contradicting yourself and say that man does nothing to be saved. Then say we must believe? That's two logical contradictions, faith alone but we must repent.

Man does nothing to be saved but man must believe.

If Paul believes in the same faith only that you believe in.

Then Paul disagrees with James,

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

Justification is only given when one is saved. So James does not believe salvation comes before obedience.

Paul also believes that Biblical saving faith is an obedient faith, just as his brother James believes.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh love.

Paul says Biblical faith is faith WORKING THROUGH LOVE that avails.

You say faith with no works avails.

Now who really believes in the faith that Paul preaches? Me or you?

Faith must exist before it can work, mental assent.

But, it must work through love before it can avail anything.

You believe the faith Paul preaches avails salvation before it works through love.

So your definition of saving faith contradicts Paul's definition of saving faith.

Also your gospel saves before love. You have a loveless gospel that saves. No need to love Jesus just believe, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

In multiple other verses Paul also states that we are saved through faith “apart from additions or modifications” (Romans 3:26-28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9 etc..) and

What kind of faith does Paul say saves in these verses? Faith without obedience? Or an obedient faith?

Also when you try to prove sola fide you uses faith verses but I am waiting for you to use an actual conversion case. Show me just one conversion to Jesus' gospel where the apostles taught them to just believe alone, and thou shalt be saved?

the word faith “stands alone” in these passages of scripture in connection with obtaining salvation. So it’s faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone

O, so faith only? The word alone can only mean everything else is excluded.

And this is why in the new testament Bible you never see the word alone, only. Expect James 2:24.

Because if it is faith ONLY that saves,

Then Grace is excluded.

You still want to hold to an illogical position and say we are saved by faith only. But then contradict yourself and say we must repent also.

I am still waiting for you to answer my question!!!

Can I be saved by faith only and not repent?

You continue to confuse an empty profession of faith/dead faith that producers no works with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone

No Sir, I'm not the one confused on what Biblical saving faith is and how the scriptures define it.

You say faith is not dead that produces good works. I agree partly.

But you ruin your own argument by saying we are saved before that faith produces good works.

Which again goes against Paul's definition of saving faith, Galatians 5:6. And James definition of a dead faith vs a living faith.

You describe a living faith as one before works.

Just the opposite of what James says is a living faith.

James said a dead faith is a faith with no works. You contradict James.

James said a living faith can only be living if it has works(obedience),

This is why he uses the demons as an example of dead faith. They have no obedience to God. Just belief alone.

James 2:19
Thou believest there is one God,; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble.

V20
But wilt thou know O vain man that faith without works is dead?

You just contradicted James, Danthemailman!

You also think a dead faith without works has trust. Wrong again.

Jesus says we must confess with our mouths unto salvation, Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION.

Now does your faith alone trust Gods word hear in Romans 10:9-10?

Do you trust Jesus and Paul that if you confess with your mouth like the Ethiopian Eunuch did in Acts 8:37 that you will be saved? Or do you think faith alone is a trusting faith?

Acts 8:37
And Philip said, if thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest, And he answered and said, I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD.

Do you trust Jesus' word enough with your faith to do this?

I believe what the Inspired writer of Hebrews says gives us eternal life. An obedient faith. Just as Paul teaches.

Hebrews 5:8-9
Though He were a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered; And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey Him

Can I be saved by a unobedient faith alone and receive eternal life Danthemailman?

 

[Titus Dorn]

Paul means belief only in Romans 1:16? Or is this an obedient

 

[Danthemailman]

Paul means belief only in Romans 1:16? Or is this an obedient faith Paul is referring too?

Paul means we are saved the moment that we believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Obedience/works "follow" having believed the gospel and obtained salvation.

Also you ignore faith being something Paul is telling us we must DO. Which contradicts your teaching that man plays no part in his salvation.

I never said that faith is something that we must not do so there is no contradiction. Faith is man's part in receiving the gift of salvation. (Ephesians 2:8)

Do you want to continue contradicting yourself and say that man does nothing to be saved. Then say we must believe? That's two logical contradictions, faith alone but we must repent.

Do you want to continue with your straw man arguments or are you willing to be honest and listen more closely to what I say? Those who have placed their faith in Christ alone for salvation have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. This is not a contradiction. A child can understand this, but you can't? Why is that sir?

Man does nothing to be saved but man must believe.

When did I say that man must do nothing at all in order to be saved? Man must believe the gospel in order to be saved (that's doing something) but man does not obtain salvation by works. (Romans 4:5-6)

If Paul believes in the same faith only that you believe in.

You keep saying "faith only" as if I'm referring to what James means by faith only - "empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works." I can assure you that is NOT what I'm referring to when I say that man is saved through faith in Christ alone and not by works. Faith in Christ "alone" for salvation means we are saved by "trusting in Christ alone for salvation" which is a living faith that results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Trusting in works for salvation is a spurious faith.

Then Paul disagrees with James,

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

Justification is only given when one is saved. So James does not believe salvation comes before obedience.

Paul also believes that Biblical saving faith is an obedient faith, just as his brother James believes.

You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. I also believe that Biblical saving faith results in obedience as the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. You fail to realize that in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh love.

Paul says Biblical faith is faith WORKING THROUGH LOVE that avails.

Salvation is established at the point of faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Then we receive the Holy Spirit and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts. (Romans 5:5) Faith does not work through love in order to obtain salvation, but because we have obtained salvation. Saving faith demonstrates it's genuine character by works of love. Those who live by faith are internally motivated by love for Christ. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

You say faith with no works avails.

I say that man is saved by faith apart from the merit of works, (Romans 4:2-6) yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works, (James 2:14-24) which is in perfect harmony with Paul and James.

Now who really believes in the faith that Paul preaches? Me or you?

Me. You believe in works salvation.

Faith must exist before it can work, mental assent.

Faith in Christ must be rooted and established before it can work, yet we are still saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

But, it must work through love before it can avail anything.

Galatians 5:6 (NASB) - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You seem to skip over that point in order to try and make Paul teach salvation by works.

You believe the faith Paul preaches avails salvation before it works through love.

Faith does avail salvation before it works through love. Working through love is the result of salvation through faith and not the cause. You could never produce enough works of love/charity in order to earn your salvation, yet that is what you are seeking to do - "earn salvation by works."

So your definition of saving faith contradicts Paul's definition of saving faith.

Paul is describing the character of saving faith (it works through love) and is not defining saving faith as works. As long as you continue to trust in works for salvation, you will continue to stumble and twist the scriptures.

Also your gospel saves before love. You have a loveless gospel that saves. No need to love Jesus just believe, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

Love is a character trait of those who believe the gospel and have been saved and have received the Holy Spirit and the love of God poured out within their hearts. (Ephesians 1:13; Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:7) You really have this all mixed up!

What kind of faith does Paul say saves in these verses? Faith without obedience? Or an obedient faith?

So you are saying that lost unbelievers produce works of obedience in order to become saved? What kind of faith is that? That's like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. Your logic is flawed sir. We are saved by faith apart from the merit of multiple acts of obedience/works which follow, yet authentic saving faith does not remain apart from acts of obedience/works of obedience which are to follow because it's a living faith.

Also when you try to prove sola fide you uses faith verses but I am waiting for you to use an actual conversion case. Show me just one conversion to Jesus' gospel where the apostles taught them to just believe alone, and thou shalt be saved?

Just one? Okay. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles believed in Him, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

O, so faith only? The word alone and only mean everything else is excluded.

You still don't get it. Everything else is excluded (including grace, repentance etc..) is not what I mean by salvation through faith in Christ alone. What I mean is that we are saved the moment that we place our faith in Christ alone for salvation. It's still grace through faith so grace is not excluded and we needed to repent (change our mind) before we could place our faith in Christ alone for salvation, so repentance is not excluded either. I'm beginning to believe that my dog will understand algebra before you will understand this.

And this is why in the new testament Bible you never see the word alone, only. Expect James 2:24.

Because if it is faith ONLY that saves,

James is talking about an empty profession of faith (says/claims) to have faith, but has no works to evidence his claim, hence the only. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Then Grace is excluded.

Grace is excluded from an empty profession of faith/dead faith because it's not authentic faith, but grace is not excluded from salvation through authentic faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8)

You still want to hold to an illogical position and say we are saved by faith only. But then contradict yourself and say we must repent also.

You continue to demonstrate that you don't truly understand my position, so the circular arguments continue.

I am still waiting for you to answer my question!!!

Can I be saved by faith only and not repent?

I have answered your question multiple times, but you seem to have trouble hearing me. We are not saved by what James refers to as "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) That is not the kind of faith I'm talking about when I say we are saved through faith in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6)

No Sir, I'm not the one confused on what Biblical saving faith is and how the scriptures define it.

Yes, sir, you are very confused on what Biblical saving faith is and how the scriptures define it. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and works and basically define faith "as" works. Been there, done that prior to my conversion and it's the only thing the natural man can understand. I don't have time to answer the rest of your circular arguments (that have already been answered before anyway, but you have trouble hearing me) but I will answer your last question.

Can I be saved by a unobedient faith alone and receive eternal life Danthemailman?

We are saved by faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Multiple acts of obedience/works "follow" saving faith in Christ as the fruit of salvation and demonstrative evidence of saving faith, but not as the basis or means of salvation. Unbelief is not obedience. (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

 

[OSAS 101]

Hello Sir, nice to converse with you.

Have you read the entire book of Acts?

Yes, it's a very historical book and yes, I know all the passages on baptism.
Can I help you understand it better?

 

[Titus Dorn]

Paul means we are saved the moment that we believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Obedience/works "follow" having believed the gospel and obtained salvation.

Don't tell me what Paul means, prove it!

Paul taught that we are saved the moment we have faith and trust(your definition of faith alone) in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ. Then immediately God gives us His Holy Spirit. Your saying this is what Paul taught.

Then you go on to say this faith only saves and as a result of already being saved we produce fruit/ works.

Once again you have contradicted yourself.

If we are only saved by your definition of "saving" faith ALONE (faith and complete trust in Jesus having all the power to save us apart from obedience/works) .

If this is all of mans part in his salvation then repentance is non-essential.

You need to make up your mind. Are we saved by just your definition of faith alone?

Or when you also include repentance with your faith alone? Your explanations are not consistent and are logical contradictions.

Obedience/works "follow" having believed the gospel and obtained salvation.

According to you, Paul teaches we are saved before our faith produces fruit ie obedience/works.

You have misquoted and contradicted Paul again.

Paul never taught faith that has not produced fruit saves us.....faith alone with no obedience to Gods commands.

Paul agrees with John's teaching on Biblical faith.

John 3:36 (NASB 1995)
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John teaches the opposite of your definition of Biblical faith.

You say saving faith ALONE has no obedience. We are saved before obedient works.

You keep accusing me of confusing obedient works with saving faith.

Now who has the correct definition of Biblical saving faith?

JOHN DOES!!!

John 3:36
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John and I teach the exact same Biblical saving faith.

You teach a contradiction of John's Biblical saving faith.

John equates belief and obedience AS ONE IN THE SAME.

You teach faith alone with no obedience saves us.

After faith with no obedience saves us then we obey Gods commandments.

I'll tell you again Danthemailman, saving Biblical faith is never ALONE! It is an OBEDIENT FAITH THAT SAVES! Says John, Paul ,James, Peter and the rest of the apostles.

More proof your definition of Biblical saving faith ALONE is unscriptual.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life;

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect , He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that OBEY Him

Believeth....have everlasting life =
Obey Him.... eternal salvation.

John and the writer of Hebrews agree. Saved by obedient faith. Never faith without obedience.

More Biblical proof saving faith includes obedience/works.

John 13:17
If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye DO them.

Jesus teaches we are not made happy until we ACT ON OUR FAITH BY OBEYING HIM. Never before obedience.

Hebrews 3:18-19 (NASB 1995)
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT?

So we see that they were not able to enter because of UNBELIEF.

Once again the Bible gives my definition of Biblical saving faith and not your confusion.

Gods word teaches us that the faith that has the power to save is an OBEDIENT FAITH!

You try to be saved before obedience. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Faith and obedience are equivalent. They cannot be separated.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

Can we be saved without obeying the command to believe?

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

You claim there is no obedience in salvation. No commandments we must obey.

You contradict your Faith alone gospel again.

We MUST obey the command to believe!!!

You cannot get saved by a faith that is dead with no works.

Paul teaches the faith that saves us is an obedient faith.

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for His name sake.

In regards to Romans 1:5; 16:26, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith.

Here Paul clearly teaches he received Gods grace from a obedient faith.

You contradict again, and say Paul was not teaching he had obedience in order to be saved.

You think you really believe what the scriptures say? Then why do you continually contradict the Inspired writers?

Paul says he received Gods grace FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL.

I believe what Paul teaches Sir, you contradict him.
Now please, I don't want to hear you interpret Paul again in Romans 1:5. I will believe in Paul's own words. I do not need you to twist his meaning.

Paul again teaches the opposite of your faith alone.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:6 (NASB) - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You seem to skip over that point in order to try and make Paul teach salvation by works

Paul does not teach we are saved by meritorious works and neither do I.

You can continue to slander me but it wont change my true beliefs. And it will never make you honest or correct.

Obedience saves the same way faith saves. They both are a condition in Gods plan of salvation ie the gospel.

I can say the same about you.

You are not putting all your trust in Christ as all sufficient to save you. Your trust is in your belief ALONE not in Christ.

Neither belief by itself nor works by themself save. It is the whole gospel (in its entirety) that has the power to save, Romans 1:16. In the gospel you have Gods grace our faith and Gods commandments. All must be included for it to be the true Biblical gospel if we are to be saved by it.

You want me to believe saving faith is faith alone.

You believe faith that saves has no obedience no fruit. Only true Biblical faith produces works ,fruit, obedience after one is saved. Show me the evidence that your faith alone is genuine? You cannot. As James taught,

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This statement of James is true before we are saved and after God has saved us.

Faith that saves that has no works cannot prove itself to be genuine faith. Why should I believe your faith alone really saved you? What works of obedience do you have to show you have genuine Biblical faith? Your faith alone proves otherwise. That is why I do not accept your claim that Biblical saving faith, as you call it "faith alone" has trust/reliance on God. James says PROVE IT!!! Show me your faith saved you!

And do not try to claim James does not make this the issue. Don't claim James assumes already Faith alone saves and works is done after one is saved as the evidence. James is making the issue about whether faith without works saves or faith with obedience saves, not after the fact!

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith(faith with no obedience) SAVE HIM?

James' issue with faith alone and faith+works is an issue of salvation! That is a fact. To claim otherwise is to disagree with James!

 

[Titus Dorn]

Yes, it's a very historical book and yes, I know all the passages on baptism.
Can I help you understand it better?

Hello Sir, I am curious about your beliefs.

How many gospel(s) of Jesus Christ are there?

I know there is one. Do you agree?

 

[OSAS 101]

Hello Sir, I am curious about your beliefs.

How many gospel(s) of Jesus Christ are there?

I know there is one. Do you agree?

 

[OSAS 101]

Is this it?

Galatians 2:19;
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

 

[Titus Dorn]

Is this it?

Galatians 2:19;
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Is this a rhetorical question?

 

[Danthemailman]

Don't tell me what Paul means, prove it!

I already have proved it. I'm really getting tired of your continuous straw man arguments, false accusations and being unable to perceive what I explain, so I will limit my responses to the very heart of the issue and address some new scriptures that I have not already covered with you.

Paul taught that we are saved the moment we have faith and trust (your definition of faith alone) in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ. Then immediately God gives us His Holy Spirit. Your saying this is what Paul taught.

Then you go on to say this faith only saves and as a result of already being saved we produce fruit/ works.

Once again you have contradicted yourself.

Paul clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and not through faith and works as you teach. Paul also goes on to say in verse 10 that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Saved through faith, not works then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. *No contradiction at all.*

If we are only saved by your definition of "saving" faith ALONE (faith and complete trust in Jesus having all the power to save us apart from obedience/works)

Do you believe that Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior? (salvation through faith in Christ alone) or do you believe that Christ is an IN-sufficient Savior? (salvation through faith and works). Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

If this is all of mans part in his salvation then repentance is non-essential.

No, repentance is essential because if we don't repent (change our mind) then we won't place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

You need to make up your mind. Are we saved by just your definition of faith alone?

My definition of salvation through faith in Christ alone (Romans 4:5-6) is not to be confused with James' definition of faith only/empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) This is the cause of much of your confusion and continued straw man arguments and false accusations.

Or when you also include repentance with your faith alone? Your explanations are not consistent and are logical contradictions.

Not logical to you because every time you hear me say "salvation through faith in Christ alone" (Romans 4:5-6) you equate it with "faith only" (empty profession of faith/dead faith) in James 2:24 which is not what I'm teaching. As I stated before, I could explain this to you until I'm blue in the face, but you still won't get it.

According to you, Paul teaches we are saved before our faith produces fruit ie obedience/works.

That's true because Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

You have misquoted and contradicted Paul again.

Actually, you have and continue to do so.

Paul never taught faith that has not produced fruit saves us.....faith alone with no obedience to Gods commands.

So how many further commands must we accomplish in order to be saved "after" we have already been saved through faith and not by works? (Ephesians 2:8,9) How much obedience must we accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us? Salvation by works is motivated by PRIDE.

Paul agrees with John's teaching on Biblical faith.

John 3:36 (NASB 1995)
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John teaches the opposite of your definition of Biblical faith.

You say saving faith ALONE has no obedience. We are saved before obedient works.

You keep accusing me of confusing obedient works with saving faith.

Now who has the correct definition of Biblical saving faith?

JOHN DOES!!!

John 3:36
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John and I teach the exact same Biblical saving faith.

You teach a contradiction of John's Biblical saving faith.

John equates belief and obedience AS ONE IN THE SAME.

You teach faith alone with no obedience saves us.

After faith with no obedience saves us then we obey Gods commandments.

I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Campbellites and Mormons) quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works which "follows" saving belief in Christ. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follows" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

I'll tell you again Danthemailman, saving Biblical faith is never ALONE! It is an OBEDIENT FAITH THAT SAVES! Says John, Paul ,James, Peter and the rest of the apostles.

I never said faith that saves does not result in producing obedience/works, yet Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" having been saved through faith.

More proof your definition of Biblical saving faith ALONE is unscriptual.

Your alleged proof is no proof at all. It's just Campbellite smoke and mirrors.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life;

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect , He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that OBEY Him

Believeth....have everlasting life =
Obey Him.... eternal salvation.

Those who believe are saved/those who obey Him by choosing to believe are saved. Nothing here about salvation by works. I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 5:8,9 with you in post #113. Go back and read it again.

How one is saved.....

John and the writer of Hebrews agree. Saved by obedient faith. Never faith without obedience.

Obedience which "follows" having been saved through faith is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Works-salvationists cannot figure this out and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

More Biblical proof saving faith includes obedience/works.

Biblical saving faith RESULTS in producing obedience/works, yet obedience/works which "follows" having been saved through faith is not the essence of faith and is also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. *Until you get this right, you will continue to promote salvation by works.*

Hebrews 3:18-19 (NASB 1995)
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT?

So we see that they were not able to enter because of UNBELIEF.

Once again the Bible gives my definition of Biblical saving faith and not your confusion.

Your confusion continues to result in salvation by works. The disobedience of these Hebrews here was a manifestation of their unbelief.

Gods word teaches us that the faith that has the power to save is an OBEDIENT FAITH!

That's just another way of saying we are saved by faith AND WORKS. Faith that has the power to save TRUSTS IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION and obedience/works FOLLOW as the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

You try to be saved before obedience. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

So how much obedience does it take? Since the object of my faith (Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption) is IN-sufficient to save me according to you, then how much obedience must I accomplish and "add as a supplement" to His finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save me? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have produced "enough" obedience/works so NOW the Lord will finally be able to save you? You continue to seek salvation by works. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Faith and obedience are equivalent. They cannot be separated.

You make the same error that I made prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and was very confused, just like you are now. I remember believing that faith "is" baptism faith "is" multiple acts of obedience faith "is" works which is absolutely FALSE! Faith is faith and multiple acts of obedience which "follow" are works.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

The faith that saves is the faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and obedience/works "follow."

Can we be saved without obeying the command to believe?

No. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5 etc..).

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

You claim there is no obedience in salvation. No commandments we must obey.

Your claim is that those who believe and are saved are no really not saved yet until they accomplish a list of works afterwards. That salvation by grace through faith and not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

You contradict your Faith alone gospel again.

I don't contradict anything. We are saved through faith, not works. Period. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

We MUST obey the command to believe!!!

Never said anything different. (John 3:18)

You cannot get saved by a faith that is dead with no works.

Saving faith in Christ is not a dead faith, but is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5) and it results in producing works, (Ephesians 2:10) yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Paul teaches the faith that saves us is an obedient faith.

Your continued mantra. Salvation by faith + obedience/works. Is that what Paul taught in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5? Of course not, but you have your agenda.

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for His name sake.

Here Paul clearly teaches he received Gods grace from a obedient faith.

You contradict again, and say Paul was not teaching he had obedience in order to be saved.

You think you really believe what the scriptures say? Then why do you continually contradict the Inspired writers?

Paul says he received Gods grace FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL.

I believe what Paul teaches Sir, you contradict him.
Now please, I don't want to hear you interpret Paul again in Romans 1:5. I will believe in Paul's own words. I do not need you to twist his meaning.

Paul again teaches the opposite of your faith alone.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Paul does not teach we are saved by meritorious works and neither do I.

You can continue to slander me but it wont change my true beliefs. And it will never make you honest or correct.

Obedience saves the same way faith saves. They both are a condition in Gods plan of salvation ie the gospel.

I can say the same about you.

You are not putting all your trust in Christ as all sufficient to save you. Your trust is in your belief ALONE not in Christ.

Neither belief by itself nor works by themself save. It is the whole gospel (in its entirety) that has the power to save, Romans 1:16. In the gospel you have Gods grace our faith and Gods commandments. All must be included for it to be the true Biblical gospel if we are to be saved by it.

You want me to believe saving faith is faith alone.

You believe faith that saves has no obedience no fruit. Only true Biblical faith produces works ,fruit, obedience after one is saved. Show me the evidence that your faith alone is genuine? You cannot. As James taught,

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This statement of James is true before we are saved and after God has saved us.

Faith that saves that has no works cannot prove itself to be genuine faith. Why should I believe your faith alone really saved you? What works of obedience do you have to show you have genuine Biblical faith? Your faith alone proves otherwise. That is why I do not accept your claim that Biblical saving faith, as you call it "faith alone" has trust/reliance on God. James says PROVE IT!!! Show me your faith saved you!

And do not try to claim James does not make this the issue. Don't claim James assumes already Faith alone saves and works is done after one is saved as the evidence. James is making the issue about whether faith without works saves or faith with obedience saves, not after the fact!

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith(faith with no obedience) SAVE HIM?

James' issue with faith alone and faith+works is an issue of salvation! That is a fact. To claim otherwise is to disagree with James!

More the same confusion and false accusations. I already thoroughly covered these passages of scripture with you above (in multiple posts) that you continue to distort in order to support your "works based" false gospel, but you just don't have ears to hear. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel and only then will the blinders be removed and you will finally understand what I'm explaining to you.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Thanks for responding, I appreciate your desire to teach me. I love your passion for our God and for others souls.

Can you believe that man, HARK?! WOW

You know what Hark proves? He proves that intelligence is not the end all be all of who we should look to for guidance on what the Bible teaches. It amazes me when men as intelligent as HARK is cannot understand Gods word. But the Bible teaches us why this is.

So, I shouldn't be that surprised. It sure is sad, he could do a lot of good with the intelligence God has given him. Yet unknowingly to him, he is a servant of satan. Deceiving those who think he has great understanding, while himself being deceived. It is a case of the blind leading the blind. So sad, I pray for him and you.

I don't consider you my personal enemy. But you are an enemy of the cross. Hopefully this will change. I believe you love me. I want you to know that I love you for loving me. Jesus taught He came to cause division among us by His word. We both must stand for the truth whatever the cost may be. Whether we loose friendships, even our own children, spouse etc. I will put my service to God and His truth over friendship. It is others souls that are at stake. We must love their soul more than their personal feelings. To God be the glory.

I am on my way to worship, I have one point to make then I will expound more later today, Lord willing.

Can we be saved without OBEDIENCE TO OBEYING THE COMMAND TO BELIEVE? Your answer,

No. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5 etc..)

I love your honesty. I have never gotten a protestant to admit to this!

Danthemailman, you just destroyed the entire foundation your doctrine is based upon!

Your foundation has just crumbled under your feet.

You have contradicted your entire argument that there is NO Obedience in receiving salvation.

Danthemailman I know you are intelligent. So I am holding you accountable.

You know good and well that I am correct.

Now you have a choice to make.

Are you going to accept Gods word and forsake the error you have made believing in what the protestant religion teaches?

Or

Are you going to let pride take over give in to the devil and reject Gods truth?

I beg you not to turn from God and allow yourself to be hardened in your heart.

There are things in Gods word that I do not fully understand. So what if your wrong. I am so happy when someone shows me where I have misunderstood Gods word. I am thankful to God for those in my life that have helped me out of error.

It all comes down to this:

Are we going to truly love God?

If we are we will say, Here I am Lord, I am your faithful servant. Whatever your will, I will believe and obey!

 

[OSAS 101]

Is this a rhetorical question?

What is it you are looking for?
Am I missing something?
Did someone tell you there was only one Gospel, then they told you what it is, and now you want to see if I know what it is?
What kind of game is this?

 

[Titus Dorn]

What is it you are looking for?
Am I missing something?
Did someone tell you there was only one Gospel, then they told you what it is, and now you want to see if I know what it is?
What kind of game is this?

Hello, Well some folks believe in more than one gospel.
There called dispensationalists. That's all friend, I was hoping to get to know you a little before we discussed Sirs, what must I do to be saved.

I try to be as upfront and honest as I can be. I'm have nothing to hide. No hidden agenda.

I know that Sola fide is not Jesus' gospel. Therefore if that is the gospel you believed in, Sola fide it has no power to save. Only the true gospel of Jesus Christ can save us, Romans 1:16.

Also do you believe only in the King James Bible? I like to use the King James but also the New King James.

If you believe that the King James Bible is the only Bible that is Inspired. I will just use the King James.

 

[OSAS 101]

Hello, Well some folks believe in more than one gospel.
There called dispensationalists. That's all friend, I was hoping to get to know you a little before we discussed Sirs, what must I do to be saved.

I try to be as upfront and honest as I can be. I'm have nothing to hide. No hidden agenda.

I know that Sola fide is not Jesus' gospel. Therefore if that is the gospel you believed in, Sola fide it has no power to save. Only the true gospel of Jesus Christ can save us, Romans 1:16.

Also do you believe only in the King James Bible? I like to use the King James but also the New King James.

If you believe that the King James Bible is the only Bible that is Inspired. I will just use the King James.

I am neither Reformed, or Lutheran, nor roman catholic.
I don't get hung up on sola fide or anything else.
I'm a born again believer in Jesus and I know I'm going to heaven and be with Jesus when I die.
I try to live a life of faith, hope, and charity, as best I can.
I don't get involved in threads about saved by faith alone or any of that blah blah blah...
I've used a Thompson chain reference NIV Bible for almost 36 1/2 years now.
No need to change now nor do I wish to debate Bible translations.
I watch the Lakewood Church service with Joel Osteen every Sunday morning.
I am not a negative Christian and so I do not want to hear negative things about him or his ministry or negative things about any other ministry.
I know which pastors I believe to be good, those I think give a wrong message, and mostly I don't have an open opinion about any of them.
I would rather think about being in God's presence and having God's favor in my life.
Praise Jesus
Amen.

Did I leave anything out?

 

[Titus Dorn]

I am neither Reformed, or Lutheran, nor roman catholic.
I don't get hung up on sola fide or anything else.
I'm a born again believer in Jesus and I know I'm going to heaven and be with Jesus when I die.
I try to live a life of faith, hope, and charity, as best I can.
I don't get involved in threads about saved by faith alone or any of that blah blah blah...
I've used a Thompson chain reference NIV Bible for almost 36 1/2 years now.
No need to change now nor do I wish to debate Bible translations.
I watch the Lakewood Church service with Joel Osteen every Sunday morning.
I am not a negative Christian and so I do not want to hear negative things about him or his ministry or negative things about any other ministry.
I know which pastors I believe to be good, those I think give a wrong message, and mostly I don't have an open opinion about any of them.
I would rather think about being in God's presence and having God's favor in my life.
Praise Jesus
Amen.

Did I leave anything out?

It is an impossibility for us to have a discussion on what saves us without there being some negative responses.

If I don't agree on what you believe, you may view that as me being negative toward your beliefs. Will you have a discussion on what saves us if I have to show you where you might be wrong?

 

[Titus Dorn]

Hello, Danthemailman. I will wait for your response to my post #152. Hope to hear from you

 

[OSAS 101]

It is an impossibility for us to have a discussion on what saves us without there being some negative responses.

If I don't agree on what you believe, you may view that as me being negative toward your beliefs. Will you have a discussion on what saves us if I have to show you where you might be wrong?

Sure, go ahead, and good luck.

 

[Danthemailman]

Hello, Danthemailman. I will wait for your response to my post #152. Hope to hear from you

I don't think we have much more to discuss. You and I just do not agree on some crucial issues and may never. In regards to Hark and others who are zealous for the law (particularly sabbath keeping) in threads that pertain to the law, good luck coming to an agreement with them. Their arguments typically culminate in "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

 

[Titus Dorn]

Sure, go ahead, and good luck.

Well, you said you know you are saved. How do you know this as a fact? Please show me how you know you are saved.

I know that I am saved because I believed all of what Jesus and His Inspired apostles taught through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I will show you all of the gospel of Christ that is required of us to believe in and obey to be saved in my future posts.

One important belief a person must have that makes them teachable or unreachable is if they believe that the Holy Bible is the only authority on truth and error.

Also a person that is teachable must believe that anything they believe that goes against what the Bible teaches as truth must therefore be error. Do you except that if you believe something and it contradicts the Bible that you are always 100% wrong?

If I cannot convince you that the Bible is the only authority for what God says is truth. Then I cannot convince you what is Gods will and what is some man's think so's.

There are folks who are unteachable because they believe God speaks directly to them apart from His Holy divine Word.

Therefore if I tell them they are wrong about what they believe because the Bible doesn't teach what they believe. It does not matter to them. Because they believe that what God is telling them directly apart from the Bible has more authority than the Bible does.

So, if you Believe God tells you directly what is right or wrong, Gods holy, divine ,Inspired, infallible Word, ie Holy Bible becomes of no use to you. You do not have faith in it. Your faith is in yourself and your supposed direct revelations from God.

I cant help you know the truth if you do not accept that Gods word is the only authority on truth. Do you agree?