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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    In the New Testament, the word judgment (Krisis) is used to denote the deciding time, trial, or probation of man. This time of judgment is spoken of in scripture in such a way as to indicate that it is given to man as a blessing and a favor. It is shown as a cause for great rejoicing and thanksgiving. In Psalm 96, all nature and people are told to exult and rejoice "Before the Lord, for He cometh to judge the world. He shall judge the world with righteousness and the people with his truth."

    Judgment time as a period of great rejoicing is in striking contrast to the orthodox view of a time of horror and dread! It would almost seem we were reading from a different Bible. No — it is the same Bible, but it is "the good tidings of great joy" that the angels said "shall be unto all people."
     
  2. RevCharlesG

    RevCharlesG New Member

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    is it the act of praying or the act of "turning away" that saves you? or is it the faith and belief that Christ died and forgives.....? I would agree that there can be no reaction if there is no action, however. I know the sins ive committed and still commit, if not for his GRACE. I know how my life should and would end up....
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    AMEN..... AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be in-definitive or definitive.
    So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS" .
    If you like I can post the complete definition of aionios and aion from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker lexicon of NT Greek one of, if not, the most highly respected lexicons in print. Here is a study I made. In the following twenty two verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described by other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 20:1, Romans 26:10.
    .....In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described as meaning a period of time less than eternal as in the following verses.

    [1]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than the earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed, it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
    [4]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “incorruptible.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [6]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [7]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
    [8]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [9]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with not “snatch them out of my hand” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “not ‘snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [10]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [12]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
    [13]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.
    [14]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [15]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [17]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
    [19]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
    [20]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations."
    [21]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [22]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
    =======

    • A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
    Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
    More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co 12:31.
    Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
    • Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
    A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)

    Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi 1:23, lit., much more better; Rom 8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph 3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.
    Vincent Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
    Glory Properly,
    the glory, which is His due.
    In the Church
    Through which His many-tinted wisdom is to be displayed, and which is His fullness. The
    variety of the divine wisdom is again hinted at in all that we ask or think.
    By Christ Jesus (
    ἐν)
    Rev., better,
    in. As the Church is the outward domain in which God is to be praised, so Christ is the spiritual sphere of this praise.
    Throughout all ages, world without end (
    εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων)
    Lit.,
    unto all the generations of the age of the ages. Eternity is made up of ages, and ages of generations.
     
  4. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    John 3:16

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


    This is not what Ecclesiastes 12:7 declares not the multiple of verse that declares the salvation of all people. There are two sides of every coin and that includes the Bible; God’s Word is inerrant; but translators are bias; corrupt religious men have gotten their dirty little fingers on God’s word and spun it so most believe a lie; that is a scriptural fact.


    I do understand and see the doom and gloom verses in the Bible but there are some serious issues here that should not be ignored. The word perish in Psalm 146:3 was also used in John 3:15 "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.


    Look up the word perish in John 3:15 it was added by the translator

    Strong’s


    9999 inserted word (x);



    This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


    John 3:15

    <9999 > should

    <9999 > not

    <9999 > perish,

    <9999 > but


    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)




    In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been Altered or corrupted, they are left out from the New Version.


    Even in Psalm 146:3 the word perish means OT:6 'abad (aw-bad');


    a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The text is not a difficult one to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR).

    Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionian, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

    Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved.

    Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

    Some literal (non deceptive) translations read:

    9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

    9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

    9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)


    The Endless HellFire Boys Club has cloned many translations supporting their view. Does that make them right? What if a billionaire published 1000 bible translations all saying God is Hitler, would the sheer numbers of versions make them true?

    Do you realize the Greek word for "eternal" (in 2 Thess.1:9 & elsewhere) is used of the length of time Jonah was in the sea creature, i.e. 3 days:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    And the Greek word for "destruction" (olethros, 2 Thess.1:9) often refers to mere death, or a punishment, or type of ruin that is temporary or reparable:

    Untitled

    A lexicon re olethros at the following url states:

    "...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

    ὄλεθρος — с греческого на все языки

    As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

    A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
    https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

    "In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."


    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Is there salvation after death?
     
  6. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    REPENTANCE is turning from ones personal sins, and to the Living God, in true sorrow, which is done in prayer to the Lord. This involves changing ones mind towards God and sin, and the direction of ones life, which is to be only for the Lord and pleasing Him.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That has been answered several times before:

    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

    The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".

    Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

    Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

    1."God exists today"
    2. Today "is finite"
    3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
    4. God is also immortal.
    5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
    6. Both are true at the same time.

    Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

    Thus your argument is refuted.



    Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

    Thesaurus results for MOMENT
    http://en.konjugator.com/moment/
    104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
    http://en.konjugator.com/aeon/

    Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
    An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
    And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

    http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php




    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.



    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-24.htm

    "hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

    "This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

    Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration.

    After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).




    "The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/1-23.htm

    As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

    http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-23.htm

    and also this:

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    Index of /interlinear/1_peter



    Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing. Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

    Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
    who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
    Concordant Literal Translation
    Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
    Rotherham's Emphasized Version
    Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
    Emphatic Diaglott NT
    the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
    Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
    ...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AKR1767.0001.001/686?rgn=main;view=image
    http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti6.pdf

    Re Greek scholar Deissman:

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

    The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf



    The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

    Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

    Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.



    John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

    In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

    And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV) and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

    For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).



    Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".


    Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
    http://studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
    http://studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

    Darby Bible Translation
    and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

    This is what it actually literally says:

    Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

    It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

    Here is the full verse with context:

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
    Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

    Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.




    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

    Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).



    And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

    Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon".

    Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

    Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).


    For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

    Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

    Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.


    Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all
    will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same book of Romans & chapter 5).




    None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

    "The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=oD... everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

    https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


    ----


    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302




     
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  8. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    True for now on this earth. BUT God is not so small to limit His plan for this age and has many ages to call all the people God has never called.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Another deceptive translation that is. Try:

    8 For the ransom of his soul is too precious a price, And he shuns it for the eon

    Compare:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart


    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
  10. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    Right! And what is that damnation?

    From here - Explore
    "This text is sometimes used by traditionalists in support for their view. However, this text says only that the lost will be resurrected and judged. It does not speak to what awaits them afterward. In fact, this text indicates that only the righteous will be resurrected to life, underscoring that the resurrected lost will not be, contrary to the traditional view."
     
  11. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they won't escape his consuming fire. The fire will, in fact, consume them. You and I are both quoting
    1 Corinthians 3:15
     
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Check it out at isedenglishversion.com which says: BADG 127.2 annihilation; 181. Borchert, wrath, destruction; ολεορος; aionios, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 seems to mean total destruction or the opposite of eternal life; he concludes with, "the usual meaning in Paul is final and hopeless judgement". Acts of the Apostles 3:23; Deuteronomy 18:19 says Paul referring to the old Testament; 2 Peter 2:6, 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7;Romans 9:22; Judges 1:17.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    ist says resurrection of damnation (condemnation). Thats what awaits them.

    The word "resurrection" means "a sanding up again, from death recovery raised to life again, rising again etc".

    Jesus aso speaks of damnation and says

    "14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."(Matthew 23:14,15 KJV)

    Jesus speaks of damnation being a "greater" damnation for some. If damnation was a ceasing to exist eventually when why differentiate the kinds of damnation. This shows that thee is different kinds of damnation or degrees.

    Jesus also calls then a "child of hell". This shows consciousness in hell as well. They are children of hell. Somehow they are in a real state of being.

    Greater means superior or more abundant excessive, beyond measure.

    Jesus also said where he was speaking of for damnation

    "33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"(Matthew 23:33 KJV)

    we also read this

    "42 And shall cast them into a
    furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:42 KJV)

    Again showing consciousness after death or else how do you wail and gnash your teeth if you are not conscious Also we read of the word "furnace", in Greek meaning "furnace", look at that, apparently a verb from to set on fire kindle etc.
     
  14. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    some good points
     
  15. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I see the wailing and gnashing of teeth as similar to what you would do right after you fall out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute. You would wail because of the hopelessness of your situation. You'd gnash your teeth because you would be angry with the guy that pushed you out, and at God for allowing it to happen to you.

    But then you hit the ground.
     
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    this is what the other posted said
    "
    and you said

    But you missed the point the verse says

    "16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen"( 1 Timothy 6:16 KJV)

    Though God is everlasting and eternal and clearly not only an age. The context is speaking of His honour and power being everlasting. Is Gods power ever to end? or His honour.

    Your doctrine dishonours God it seems and takes away His power.



    "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    this wailing and gnashing of teeth is when they are cast into the furnace of fire. This is after death and nowhere does it say it ends.
     
  18. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    Two things:
    1. Are you saying they die BEFORE they are cast into the fire?
    2. Where does it say the weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't end? It only says it happens. The point is simple and clear: Those who realize they have lost eternal life and are coming face to face with the results of their choice in real time have one of, or both of, the following reactions: Weeping at the loss they are suffering and anger at God for doing it to them. The latter is especially true if they refuse, to the last second, to relinquish their will over their life.

    The fire is a simple illustration to anyone living at the time the book was written (and us today) that they will be utterly destroyed. That is what an unquenchable fire did back then, and does today.

    It's really not that complicated - unless a person wants it to be.

    It's like all the scripture about Jesus' brothers. It's simple, unless you hold to some other belief that it is incompatible with, so a person tries to twist the clear meaning. Same thing here.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Total nonsense. We have an earthly house, i.e. body, that is destroyed after an aion, i.e. a man's life, in exchange God gives us another body in heaven which is also destroyed when the heavens are destroyed. So according to you there is no difference both bodies are destroyed.
    Irrelevant! The majority view is "inviolable" Vincent's supposition absent evidence is meaningless.

    An assumption not supported by scripture or evidence only uni presupposition.
    Irrelevant. I addressed this deceptive smokescreen before. Please note and refrain from such evasions.
    1 Pe 1:23
    having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.
    1Pe 1:25
    (25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
    Even if the Greek word aion does not occur in vs. 23 please tell us when does the word of God cease to abide? But please note the word aion does occur is vs.25 where it modifies "God's word." Do you want to argue that God's word is corruptible and does not abide forever vs. 23 but it is incorruptible and does abide forever vs. 25?
    Wrong as usual. God is immortal and eternal, if finite aions do literally exist, God can and does exist before, during and after those supposed finite aions but scripture does not say that. "του αιωνιου θεου/tou aioniou theou, the aion God does not mean and in no way can be translated as "before, during and after finite aion God."
    Can you not see the contradiction in all of your "experts?" God is immortal but his glory and honor only lasts for a finite "'aion."
    How many times must I say irrelevant? So what one unidentified pagan in the 3rd century used the word epaionion. One anonymous scribble does not determine the definition of a word!

    This is totally and absolutely false! You do not have any source which states this. You have one source Ilaria Ramelli who says ."in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” Even that statement is totally false. Here is the Origen quote in context.
    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps"In a, not a number of, passagesupon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    Here Origen says nothing about "life after eternal life" Origen says "after the fountain leaps into eternal life perhaps it also will leap into God who is beyond eternal life."
    Several paragraphs later in this same writing Origen says this about eternal life.

    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
    Eternal life “never perishes,””remains.””is not taken away,””[is not] consumed,””[does not] perish.”
    I find that universalism is based blatant falsehoods such as "life after eternal life." falsehood on deception on misrepresentation etc.


     
  20. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Your entire argument fails right here and crashes to the ground

    Eternal [aionios] life is Jesus Christ . He is the life and eternal life as scripture says and he is forever and eternal and everlasting in His being. And all believers have eternal life "abiding" in them, as they abide in Jesus Christ for he is eternal life.

    "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."( 1 John 1:1-3 KJV)

    Notice the "eternal [aionios] life" life is Jesus Christ.

    "11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal [aionios] life, and this life is in his Son."( 1 John 5:11 KJV)

    "20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his
    Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal [aionios] life."(1 John 5:20 KJV)


    Eternal [aionios] life is actually Jesus Christ himself and if he is in us we are in Him which is eternal [aionios] life.

    and so those who wilfully sin and do such things as this

    "15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal [aionios] life abiding in him."( 1 John 3:15 KJV)

    These no longer have eternal life (Jesus Christ ) abiding in them. Notice that Jesus Christ (eternal life) is in a person or not. It is not an age as some make it in many instances but actually Jesus Christ himself. This could be the reason why some don't understand this and teach heresy because Jesus Christ ( eternal life ) is not in them . I would say to all to read this and consider,

    "5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

    2 Corinthians 13:3
    "Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."




     
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