how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To all:

the entire argument fails with this understanding

Eternal [aionios] life is Jesus Christ . He is the life and eternal life as scripture says and he is forever and eternal and everlasting in His being. And all believers have eternal life "abiding" in them, as they abide in Jesus Christ for he is eternal life.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal [aionios] life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."( 1 John 1:1-3 KJV)

Notice the "eternal [aionios] life" life is Jesus Christ.

"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal [aionios] life, and this life is in his Son."( 1 John 5:11 KJV)

"20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his
Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal [aionios] life."(1 John 5:20 KJV)


Eternal [aionios] life is actually Jesus Christ himself and if he is in us we are in Him which is eternal [aionios] life.

and so those who wilfully sin and do such things as this

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal [aionios] life abiding in him."( 1 John 3:15 KJV)

These no longer have eternal life (Jesus Christ ) abiding in them. Notice that Jesus Christ (eternal life) is in a person or not. It is not an age as some make it in many instances but actually Jesus Christ himself. This could be the reason why some don't understand this and teach heresy because Jesus Christ ( eternal life ) is not in them . I would say to all to read this and consider,

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

2 Corinthians 13:3
"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Two things:
1. Are you saying they die BEFORE they are cast into the fire?
2. Where does it say the weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't end? It only says it happens.

I quote the scripture again

"42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:42 KJV)

notice they are first cast into the furnace of fire and then wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus said in another place

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

fire never quenched is a fire that never ends. This fire shall burn on and on into the lake of ire as well.

and we read of the lake of fire

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

day and night for ever and ever is clear to the simple reader. But some twist things and go against the plain reading. To say for ever and ever is a way of saying never ends ever.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Two things:
1. Are you saying they die BEFORE they are cast into the fire?
2. Where does it say the weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't end? It only says it happens. The point is simple and clear: Those who realize they have lost eternal life and are coming face to face with the results of their choice in real time have one of, or both of, the following reactions: Weeping at the loss they are suffering and anger at God for doing it to them. The latter is especially true if they refuse, to the last second, to relinquish their will over their life.

The fire is a simple illustration to anyone living at the time the book was written (and us today) that they will be utterly destroyed. That is what an unquenchable fire did back then, and does today.

It's really not that complicated - unless a person wants it to be.

It's like all the scripture about Jesus' brothers. It's simple, unless you hold to some other belief that it is incompatible with, so a person tries to twist the clear meaning. Same thing here.


Luke 16:24
"23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

This verse shows consciousness after death and the torment of fire after death for some.It also implies that none can pass from there . There is no time of future passing put on it. They will simply be cast into the lake of fire at one point also and their fire shall continue to be a torment for ever and ever day and night
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I quote the scripture again

"42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:42 KJV)

notice they are first cast into the furnace of fire and then wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus said in another place

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

fire never quenched is a fire that never ends. This fire shall burn on and on into the lake of ire as well.

and we read of the lake of fire

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

day and night for ever and ever is clear to the simple reader. But some twist things and go against the plain reading. To say for ever and ever is a way of saying never ends ever.
The devil is a spiritual being. Throwing him into the fire is like throwing a railroad spike into a fire. Throwing a human (non spiritual) into the same fire is like throwing a log into the fire.

Regarding Revelation 20:10
If it were not for this passage and perhaps one other in Revelation (See section on Revelation 14:9-11), what is now the traditional view of hell may never have developed. The beast and false prophet are seen thrown into the lake of fire at the onset of the millennium (Rev 19:20) and are still there a thousand years later when the devil joins them and they are tormented forever. After rising from the dead the unsaved are thrown in, joining their fate, and consistency would seem to demand that they, too, are tormented forever. The challenge to conditionalism again seems obvious.

Other equally obvious factors, however, often go unnoticed or unmentioned. First, it should be obvious that the vision given to John consists of highly symbolic, apocalyptic imagery and must be interpreted carefully. As discussed above, the imagery of eternal torment may not communicate literal eternal torment any more than a seven-headed, ten-horned beast (Rev 13:1) ridden by a prostitute with the name of a city on her head (Rev 17:3-6) communicates a future reality like something pictured in a horror movie.

Secondly, it should be obvious that death and Hades are abstractions, not concrete entities, and are thus incapable of experiencing torment at all. And yet in this image they’re thrown into the same lake of fire as the others after being emptied of their dead (Rev 20:13-14). Most traditionalists acknowledge that this means death and Hades will be no more, yet they nevertheless argue that even though the resurrected lost are not explicitly said to be tormented eternally in the lake of fire their fate must be the same as the others thrown into the fire. But consistency demands that everything thrown into the fire experiences the same fate, so that of the devil, beast, false prophet, and risen wicked should be annihilation in reality, even though some of them are depicted in the imagery as eternally tormented.

Thirdly, not only do we have the Old Testament uses of the imagery to rely on (see section on Revelation 14:9-11), but the book of Revelation in many cases interprets the images for us! John’s vision is sometimes interpreted for him (Rev 17:7), and John appears to explain the imagery of the lake of fire itself by calling it "the second death" (Rev 20:14), the same interpretation offered by “he who sits on the throne” (Rev 21:8). So the imagery does not symbolize everlasting suffering but death—a permanent, irreversible death of body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Furthermore, the divine interpreter of imagery, foretelling the same events, explained to Daniel that what the beast experiences in the imagery symbolizes the permanent annihilation of the dominion of the kingdom it represents (Daniel 7:11, 25).

Lastly, the symbolic nature of the vision recorded in the book of Revelation is such that it must not be the foundation upon which we build our doctrine of hell, even though it is arguably used in just that fashion by traditionalists. When we allow the divine interpreters of Daniel’s and John’s visions to explain the imagery to us, we can see that it communicates annihilation. The dominion of the kingdom represented by the beast comes to an end. Death and Hades come to an end. The devil and his angels will come to an end. The unsaved will likewise come to an end, a permanent destruction of body and soul.

----The above is from here: Explore
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Luke 16:24
"23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

This verse shows consciousness after death and the torment of fire after death for some.It also implies that none can pass from there . There is no time of future passing put on it. They will simply be cast into the lake of fire at one point also and their fire shall continue to be a torment for ever and ever day and night
That's a parable in a long string of parables. ;)
Lazarus and the Rich Man
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Throwing a human (non spiritual) into the same fire is like throwing a log into the fire.

Again speaking of things you don't know. When the dead are raised up again to be cast into the lake of fire. Whatever kind of body they have is going to suffer forever?

And we read of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison. Why do you say a non spiritual person will be thrown into the fire? We read of the spirit of man goes upward (Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV). Obviously when the rich man died he went in spirit and soul into hell. But Jesus also speaks of both

"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.: (Matthew 10:28 KJV)

So this goes in line with the rich man and lazarus as well. He was cast into the fire and he was in some kind of form to suffer. Again, these are mysterious things .

we also read

"2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Daniel 12:2 KJV)

"everlasting" here means Owlam-time out of mind, eternity, always, continuance perpetual...

this contempt, means abhorring. This will be forever their state. Shame means disgrace.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Daniel 12:2 KJV)

"everlasting" here means Owlam-time out of mind, eternity, always, continuance perpetual...

this contempt, means abhorring. This will be forever their state. Shame means disgrace.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,814
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The devil is a spiritual being. Throwing him into the fire is like throwing a railroad spike into a fire. Throwing a human (non spiritual) into the same fire is like throwing a log into the fire.
this might be the heart of the disagreement. As I understand scripture, man is in fact both fleshly/temporal and spiritual/eternal...I know there is a whole debate over this issue I'm just stating what I found when I studied it in scripture. There is not just one passage that is conclusive but the study is interesting and I encourage you all to do the study.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The devil is a spiritual being. Throwing him into the fire is like throwing a railroad spike into a fire. Throwing a human (non spiritual) into the same fire is like throwing a log into the fire.
The heavenly bodies will be fit for eternity either in heaven or hell ( and the lake of fire). The bodies to come are different than the bodies we now possess.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Of course I am.

So are you.

Now we see as through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
what we go by is scripture that says Lazarus was in torment in the flames. He obviously had some kind of body and tongue and could talk and see.

I simply believe the scripture, many who have a distorted view of God's holiness and wrath and judgement against sin try to escape such a judgement by denying clear text. this is the problem and a big one. If some don't like a clear text they rush to the Greek and try to find a subtle meaning that might go a bot closer to their view. Greek understanding or hebrew is good to know but don't change the words. Use it as more of a understanding generally of the words used.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And we read of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison. Why do you say a non spiritual person will be thrown into the fire? We read of the spirit of man goes upward (Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV).
Ecclesiastes is my favorite OT book. I've read it at least 40 times, cover to cover. The verse you are talking about is juxtaposing man with animals. Don't try to read too much into it. Let's look at the context:

"18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?"

"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.: (Matthew 10:28 KJV)

The above verse clearly states that just as God can destroy the body, he can destroy the soul.
So this goes in line with the rich man and lazarus as well. He was cast into the fire and he was in some kind of form to suffer. Again, these are mysterious things

The parable is about the five brothers (of Jacob) refusing to believe even though someone returns from the dead. It was looking forward to Jesus' resurrection. That is what the parable is about. It is using what was probably a common story at the time (one that did not even jibe with what most Jews believed about the afterlife, I might add) to get to the heart of the story.
we also read
"2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Daniel 12:2 KJV)

"everlasting" here means Owlam-time out of mind, eternity, always, continuance perpetual...

this contempt, means abhorring. This will be forever their state. Shame means disgrace.
Hitler is still held in contempt. But he is also dead. The message is very simple. One has everlasting life, the other has something that is not life, and they are held in contempt. It doesn't say they awake to "everlasting life in contempt". Everlasting life is afforded to only one group.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
what we go by is scripture that says Lazarus was in torment in the flames. He obviously had some kind of body and tongue and could talk and see.

I simply believe the scripture, many who have a distorted view of God's holiness and wrath and judgement against sin try to escape such a judgement by denying clear text. this is the problem and a big one. If some don't like a clear text they rush to the Greek and try to find a subtle meaning that might go a bot closer to their view. Greek understanding or hebrew is good to know but don't change the words. Use it as more of a understanding generally of the words used.
Yes, yes and yes. It is a parable looking to the death and resurrection of Jesus. Keep in mind that even if it IS more than a parable, it is not talking about eternity. It is talking about hades, which is destroyed in the lake of fire after the GWTJ.

i.e. it doesn't support ECT even if it is true.

But It's clearly a parable based on popular stories at the time to make the point regarding looking forward to belief in him after he is resurrected. The parable of the sower is not about farming, and the parable of lazarus and the rich man is not about hell. He simply used an illustration to point out that the two of them had died, and gave us a forum where they could speak of their wishes to get him to the point of the parable. The rich man represented the Jews that did not share the message with the gentiles. Lazarus represents the gentiles. And is his name really "lazarus", or is that just using the word that means, "God is my help"?

Fact is, we don't know. But the message that the lost die a second death and stay dead is not just all over the bible, but is assumed in much scripture and also aligns with the personality of the God of the bible. The ECT message is more along the lines of the personality of Allah.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ecclesiastes is my favorite OT book. I've read it at least 40 times, cover to cover. The verse you are talking about is juxtaposing man with animals. Don't try to read too much into it. Let's look at the context:

"18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?"


The above verse clearly states that just as God can destroy the body, he can destroy the soul.

The parable is about the five brothers (of Jacob) refusing to believe even though someone returns from the dead. It was looking forward to Jesus' resurrection. That is what the parable is about. It is using what was probably a common story at the time (one that did not even jibe with what most Jews believed about the afterlife, I might add) to get to the heart of the story.

Hitler is still held in contempt. But he is also dead. The message is very simple. One has everlasting life, the other has something that is not life, and they are held in contempt. It doesn't say they awake to "everlasting life in contempt". Everlasting life is afforded to only one group.

we read in Ecclesiastes

"7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."(Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV)

So the body sleeps in the ground and the spirit is conscious after death. Jesus also was conscious after death and we read,

"8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"(Ephesians 4:8,9 KJV)

and

Today you will be with me in Paradise.”"(Luke 23:43 KJV)

"31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that
his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."(Acts 2:31 KJV)



when Jesus died on the cross he defended to the lower parts of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison. They were in the paradise side of hell, and the other side was the torment see of flames. This clearly shows that he went in spirt to the lower parts of the earth.

"HADES -from the Greek word “aidos” meaning “not seen” or “not known”. It is the unseen world of the spirits of those who are dead. It corresponds to the Hebrew word “sheol”.

and


" And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59 KJV)

Stepehn was received by God and his spirit went to God. Conscious after death.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, yes and yes. It is a parable looking to the death and resurrection of Jesus. Keep in mind that even if it IS more than a parable, it is not talking about eternity. It is talking about hades, which is destroyed in the lake of fire after the GWTJ.

i.e. it doesn't support ECT even if it is true.

But It's clearly a parable based on popular stories at the time to make the point regarding looking forward to belief in him after he is resurrected. The parable of the sower is not about farming, and the parable of lazarus and the rich man is not about hell. He simply used an illustration to point out that the two of them had died, and gave us a forum where they could speak of their wishes to get him to the point of the parable. The rich man represented the Jews that did not share the message with the gentiles. Lazarus represents the gentiles. And is his name really "lazarus", or is that just using the word that means, "God is my help"?

Fact is, we don't know. But the message that the lost die a second death and stay dead is not just all over the bible, but is assumed in much scripture and also aligns with the personality of the God of the bible. The ECT message is more along the lines of the personality of Allah.
the story is a true one I believe because we see proper names used and Abraham and Moses law etc.

The point though is about a rich man and a poor, and one who did not love his neighbour and was greedy. The fanciful ideas about the Gentiles are nowhere hinted there. Jesus came his first time for the Jews. He said so himself. Yes, some Gentiles were touched by him in his ministry. But the Gentile interpretation is not a clear one. Many Gentiles rule like kings as Jesus said and they have dominion over others. There are as many rich Gentiles and poor Gentiles as we might find among the Jews. In fact the Roman gentiles of the time were ruling over the jews and treating them bad.

The story shows clearly that there is consciousness after death and a place of torment.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
we read in Ecclesiastes

"7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."(Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV)

So the body sleeps in the ground and the spirit is conscious after death.
That's not what it says. The body will return to dust, similar to how an old car is melted down in a refinery. It is no more. And the spirit returns to God. The word translated "spirit" is also "breath". The meaning is simple: The body dies, and the person occupying the body returns to God. Does that mean it is alive and thinking? Well, it is implied that it returns to its state before it occupied the body. The Mormons have some ideas about that. ;)

For me, I consider it speculation. The point is that "you" are back in God's hand. I see it kind of like this life being a video game and when you hit "game over" you are back in they dimension outside of this creation. But I'm not married to that. Nobody should be married to their opinion on it. We don't have enough information.
when Jesus died on the cross he defended to the lower parts of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison. They were in the paradise side of hell, and the other side was the torment see of flames. This clearly shows that he went in spirt to the lower parts of the earth.

I'll give you that Jesus preached to them. But I think your attempt to divide them up is wanting. We don't know much about their condition. And as far as that goes, what about those that were born after Jesus death, but in parts of the world where he was never preached? Did he preach to them as well? I suggest it is possible, since there is no reason to believe that our linear time applies there. But we don't really know. It is all conjecture.

" And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59 KJV)

Stepehn was received by God and his spirit went to God. Conscious after death.
We only know that the "person" that occupied the body left the body and went to God. It doesn't say he was conscious there or not. Again, we can only speculate.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the story is a true one I believe because we see proper names used and Abraham and Moses law etc.

The point though is about a rich man and a poor, and one who did not love his neighbour and was greedy. The fanciful ideas about the Gentiles are nowhere hinted there. Jesus came his first time for the Jews. He said so himself. Yes, some Gentiles were touched by him in his ministry. But the Gentile interpretation is not a clear one. Many Gentiles rule like kings as Jesus said and they have dominion over others. There are as many rich Gentiles and poor Gentiles as we might find among the Jews. In fact the Roman gentiles of the time were ruling over the jews and treating them bad.

The story shows clearly that there is consciousness after death and a place of torment.
I don't see the relevance of the use of proper names. Plus, there is this:

Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,272
1,744
✟164,105.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soar Like and Eagle

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,175
171
73
Western NY
✟18,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ist says resurrection of damnation (condemnation). Thats what awaits them.

The word "resurrection" means "a sanding up again, from death recovery raised to life again, rising again etc".

Jesus aso speaks of damnation and says

"14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."(Matthew 23:14,15 KJV)

Jesus speaks of damnation being a "greater" damnation for some. If damnation was a ceasing to exist eventually when why differentiate the kinds of damnation. This shows that thee is different kinds of damnation or degrees.

Jesus also calls then a "child of hell". This shows consciousness in hell as well. They are children of hell. Somehow they are in a real state of being.

Greater means superior or more abundant excessive, beyond measure.

Jesus also said where he was speaking of for damnation

"33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"(Matthew 23:33 KJV)

we also read this

"42 And shall cast them into a
furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:42 KJV)

Again showing consciousness after death or else how do you wail and gnash your teeth if you are not conscious Also we read of the word "furnace", in Greek meaning "furnace", look at that, apparently a verb from to set on fire kindle etc.
ist says resurrection of damnation (condemnation). Thats what awaits them.

The word "resurrection" means "a sanding up again, from death recovery raised to life again, rising again etc".

Jesus aso speaks of damnation and says

"14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."(Matthew 23:14,15 KJV)

Jesus speaks of damnation being a "greater" damnation for some. If damnation was a ceasing to exist eventually when why differentiate the kinds of damnation. This shows that thee is different kinds of damnation or degrees.

Jesus also calls then a "child of hell". This shows consciousness in hell as well. They are children of hell. Somehow they are in a real state of being.

Greater means superior or more abundant excessive, beyond measure.

Jesus also said where he was speaking of for damnation

"33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"(Matthew 23:33 KJV)

we also read this

"42 And shall cast them into a
furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:42 KJV)

Again showing consciousness after death or else how do you wail and gnash your teeth if you are not conscious Also we read of the word "furnace", in Greek meaning "furnace", look at that, apparently a verb from to set on fire kindle etc.
Yes “ the word "resurrection" means "a sanding up again, from death recovery raised to life again, rising again etc".You said it yourself and does not mean torture, or annihilation or some negative goolish plan has for them they to will rise from the dead state of Adam. God has many ages to do this.


The scribes and Pharisees were the religious of the day. Today we have Baptist-sees, catholic-see, Pentecostal-see etc-see. Again the word hell is a mistranslation and we proved that with your misunderstanding of the KJ Bible when it comes to the Greek word for Satan and his messenger called Tartars. You are right God is going to judge/probate the false prophets and teachers that preach heresy of damnation


You said” Greater means superior or more abundant excessive, beyond measure”. AMEN.



2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."


Chapter and verse where it says people will “ceasing to exist”? All Flesh shall see the salvation of God. Yes the religious realm will be punished/prune/chastised and there will be wail and gnash your teeth agely.


Agreed “a verb from to set on fire kindle” God’s fire is spiritual not literal. What is God going to do with natural fire? Perhaps roast hot dogs?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClementofA
Upvote 0