how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Der Alte]

I am in Christ, born again, washed by His blood, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, Whom lives in me. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures and believe every word of the Bible. I'm just pointing out that the original Greek was translated into many languages and there are at least hundred translations into English by a myriad of PhD scholars who spent many years with the task. I do not claim that I am capable at all of doing that. I've examined many versions and see the variations in the translations. It's obvious that aion and aionios is not only used to describe a time moving forward infinitely. It also describe temporal periods of time. If you choose to ignore that fact, your choice. I can point out errors in the KJ, but it would be useless, you are devoted -- that's OK.

In all that research did you happen to review E. W. Bullinger's, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible published in 1898? What some folks dismiss as a word having two different meanings might instead be one of the more than 200 figures of speech Bullinger identified such as hyperbole.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ever since I had shoulder surgery, I think I came up with the perfect analogy of what's going on. At least my belief:

When I was put under before surgery, I was asked to take a deep breath. I did. He then asked me to take another one. I did, but in the middle of that second breath I was suddenly in the recovery room several hours later.

I think that is the experience of the lost (and maybe the saved). You die and are instantly at the GWTJ, even if you died in the great flood.

Interestingly, I had a dream about 50 years ago that also went like that. I dreamed I slammed my car into a solid concrete barrier in Tukwilla Washington on the Green river just south of Costco (though costco was not there then). But when I hit the concrete, It was like breaking through an opaque glass window with blinding bright light on the other side.

I'm using both as illustrations, not as some sort of vision or anything.

And I think they fit in with what the bible says about the time between death and the judgement, so I'm good.

remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus. They both went to a place before the final judgement. Although the place they went was still a judgement of sorts. They were both conscious also after death. We see that the thief on the cross also went to paradise (not the final white throne Judgement yet) as soon as he died.

Paul also says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Almost there]

remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus. They both went to a place before the final judgement. Although the place they went was still a judgement of sorts. They were both conscious also after death. We see that the thief on the cross also went to paradise (not the final white throne Judgement yet) as soon as he died.

Paul also says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

For starters, I see Lazarus and the rich man as a parable about people accepting Christ even after he is raised from the dead.

And the rest of your post assumes things about how time works outside of our corner of creation that are not really in the bible. e.g. I believe that the thief DID go to paradise (eternity) "today" from his perspective, just as I was in the recovery room "immediately", even though to everyone else it was hours.

 

[LoveofTruth]

For starters, I see Lazarus and the rich man as a parable about people accepting Christ even after he is raised from the dead.

And the rest of your post assumes things about how time works outside of our corner of creation that are not really in the bible. e.g. I believe that the thief DID go to paradise (eternity) "today" from his perspective, just as I was in the recovery room "immediately", even though to everyone else it was hours.

No the rich man and lazarus is a real story. Abraham is also mentioned and the law of Moses. And even if some try to say a parable is said. Parables are always baed on true real life situations. Jesus doesn't speak fables.

and no Jesus said "this day you shall be with me in paradise'. Notice the "this day part". He is speaking from a human point of reference there. He didn't say as you try to twist it that "
this day (meaning far in the future) you will actually be with me, but it will feel like this day"

I marvel at how some who teach false doctrine twist and make scripture say things it doesn't say. Sometimes it is so obvious.

anyway , not trying to argue with you. But I must fight against heresy whenever i see it.

are you a universalist as well. And do you believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh? Do you say as some say that Jesus was Michael the arch angel?

 

[Almost there]

No the rich man and lazarus is a real story. Abraham is also mentioned and the law of Moses. And even if some try to say a parable is said. Parables are always baed on true real life situations. Jesus doesn't speak fables.

and no Jesus said "this day you shall be with me in paradise'. Notice the "this day part". He is speaking from a human point of reference there. He didn't say as you try to twist it that "
this day (meaning far in the future) you will actually be with me, but it will feel like this day"

I marvel at how some who teach false doctrine twist and make scripture say things it doesn't say. Sometimes it is so obvious.

anyway , not trying to argue with you. But I must fight against heresy whenever i see it.

are you a universalist as well. And do you believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh? Do you say as some say that Jesus was Michael the arch angel?

We're on the same page regarding heresy. And no, I'm not a universalist.

Yes, I believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. No, I don't believe Lazaras and the rich man is a "true" story, but many have argued that it is a real story, and a fictitious one that was popular at the time.

This covers it very well. It is a "reader's Digest" version of a much longer explanation, to which it also links: Lazarus and the Rich Man

This covers the subject in general:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

And this really gets into the weeds on it:
Explore

 

[Almost there]

and no Jesus said "this day you shall be with me in paradise'. Notice the "this day part". He is speaking from a human point of reference there. He didn't say as you try to twist it that "
this day (meaning far in the future) you will actually be with me, but it will feel like this day"

As far is that thief is concerned, it is "this day". And that is who he was talking to. Should he have said, "In 2200 years you will be with me in paradise but it will feel like "this day"?

My tag line sums up my attitude about a lot of the ways people interpret the bible.

 

[LoveofTruth]

As far is that thief is concerned, it is "this day". And that is who he was talking to. Should he have said, "In 2200 years you will be with me in paradise but it will feel like "this day"?

No Jesus said "this day", meaning that very day. And it wouldn't be 2200 years , even a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, not 2200.

But Jesus defended to the lower parts of the earth when he died and led captivity captive. There were souls conscious in Abrahams bosom, which is paradise and he led them away with him out of that place and they went up with him. This is the common understanding.

 

[LoveofTruth]

We're on the same page regarding heresy. And no, I'm not a universalist.

Yes, I believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. No, I don't believe Lazaras and the rich man is a "true" story, but many have argued that it is a real story, and a fictitious one that was popular at the time.

But you don't see the point. Even if it was a parable (which I do not believe it was) a parable is based on true life situations. Jesus still speaks of angels, flames, torment and Abraham and Moses law etc and a rich man and a man names lazarus. I have heard some of the exotic bizzar interpretation of they story. But the simple one is best. Jesus tells of men who suffer and those who love money and do not love their neighbour. He also does not speak fables. When he speaks of men conscious after death he speaks of a reality after death or else that would confuse all who heard it.

we also read of men conscious after death in many places in scripture. Think of Moses and Elijah appearing to jesus on the mountain and vanishing away. Moses had already died but we see him talking to jesus. Or Samuel and the witch. But here is another clear section

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."( Revelation 6:9-11 KJV)

This should clarify easily that people are conscious after death. But I know some will try to escape the clear evidence thinking they know it all. God help us all

some are not even close even though others are almost there.

 

[Almost there]

No Jesus said "this day", meaning that very day. And it wouldn't be 2200 years , even a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, not 2200.

But Jesus defended to the lower parts of the earth when he died and led captivity captive. There were souls conscious in Abrahams bosom, which is paradise and he led them away with him out of that place and they went up with him. This is the common understanding.

Actually, Jesus spoke in Aramaic.

And you are right about that being a common understanding. So is mine.

But that is not even relevant. Jesus destroyed a lot of "common understandings". It is just argumentum ad-populum. And the bible clearly teaches that the road to destruction is wide.

I believe what I believe based on my relationship with him, not because a lot of other people believe it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Actually, Jesus spoke in Aramaic.

And you are right about that being a common understanding. So is mine.

But that is not even relevant. Jesus destroyed a lot of "common understandings". It is just argumentum ad-populum. And the bible clearly teaches that the road to destruction is wide.

I believe what I believe based on my relationship with him, not because a lot of other people believe it.

It must also be according to Holy scripture

 

[Almost there]

But you don't see the point. Even if it was a parable (which I do not believe it was) a parable is based on true life situations. Jesus still speaks of angels, flames, torment and Abraham and Moses law etc and a rich man and a man names lazarus. I have heard some of the exotic bizzar interpretation of they story. But the simple one is best. Jesus tells of men who suffer and those who love money and do not love their neighbour. He also does not speak fables. When he speaks of men conscious after death he speaks of a reality after death or else that would confuse all who heard it.

we also read of men conscious after death in many places in scripture. Think of Moses and Elijah appearing to jesus on the mountain and vanishing away. Moses had already died but we see him talking to jesus. Or Samuel and the witch. But here is another clear section

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."( Revelation 6:9-11 KJV)

This should clarify easily that people are conscious after death. But I know some will try to escape the clear evidence thinking they know it all. God help us all

some are not even close even though others are almost there.

So much to discuss and so little time. I'm sure we agree more than we disagree, but again I must invoke my tag line. I'll add that I"m very careful regarding using Revelation to "proove" any doctrine I hold. It is a vision. The churches are not really lampstands, Jesus is not really a lamb, and the second death is not really a lake of fire.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So much to discuss and so little time. I'm sure we agree more than we disagree, but again I must invoke my tag line. I'll add that I"m very careful regarding using Revelation to "proove" any doctrine I hold. It is a vision. The churches are not really lampstands, Jesus is not really a lamb, and the second death is not really a lake of fire.

this still stands

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."( Revelation 6:9-11KJV)

Notice souls conscious after death If this does not speak this to all who read then how can you understand souls speaking after death in a figurative way, and what they said is recorded.

Revelations relate to actual real events as well.

 

[Almost there]

this still stands

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."( Revelation 6:9-11KJV)

Notice souls conscious after death If this does not speak this to all who read then how can you understand souls speaking after death in a figurative way, and what they said is recorded.

Revelations relate to actual real events as well.

Yes it does. To whom does it apply, and what is the actual message there (not what can one glean from particular details of the vision). There is a specific point to be made by the verse. I see it. And it confuses me. We'll know after we die, for now we see as through a glass darkly, but then, face to face.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes it does. ... And it confuses me.
.

Hey thats a good admission. You are "almost there"


I only hope the best and love when truth touches others.

 

[Almost there]

Hey thats a good admission. You are "almost there"


I only hope the best and love when truth touches others.

I don't expect to know everything until fiscal 2021.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't expect to know everything until fiscal 2021.

well

...and those in Christ have this promise

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."(1 John 2:20 KJV)

 

[Almost there]

well

...and those in Christ have this promise

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."(1 John 2:20 KJV)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is one of those cases where the KJV might be a bit misleading. That Is I don't see it as "you know all", but rather, "you all know".

1 John 2:20 Lexicon: But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I am in Christ, born again, washed by His blood, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, Whom lives in me. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures and believe every word of the Bible. I'm just pointing out that the original Greek was translated into many languages and there are at least hundred translations into English by a myriad of PhD scholars who spent many years with the task. I do not claim that I am capable at all of doing that. I've examined many versions and see the variations in the translations. It's obvious that aion and aionios is not only used to describe a time moving forward infinitely. It also describe temporal periods of time. If you choose to ignore that fact, your choice. I can point out errors in the KJ, but it would be useless, you are devoted -- that's OK.

AMEN..... AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be in-definitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

 

[LoveofTruth]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is one of those cases where the KJV might be a bit misleading. That Is I don't see it as "you know all", but rather, "you all know".

1 John 2:20 Lexicon: But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

we need to put a fine point on it. The verse should read exactly as it does in the KJV.

The KJV IS the bible we should all use today. But that is a 45 hour talk or so, maybe another time.

But read further down in context and even the next verse

"21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:21,27 KJV)

And so the KJV is right again and the corrupted version wrong.

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."(1 Cor 2:7-10 KJV)

Mark 10:27
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Romans 8:32
"He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

1 Corinthians 2:15
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

2 Peter 1:3
"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

2 Corinthians 11:6
"Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is one of those cases where the KJV might be a bit misleading. That Is I don't see it as "you know all", but rather, "you all know".

1 John 2:20 Lexicon: But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

the reason they "know all things" is because of the unction...as we read,

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things....but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:21,27 KJV)

To say "you all know" doesn't make sense even. You all know what?

If we say they all know "all things". Then i can agree. And so the KJV is right again