Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[Dan1988]

The "truth of the Gospel" being the idea that God created most people with the sole purpose of yotyuig them forever, right?

Gotta give them future firewood a wide berth, yessirree.

You maybe have to square Him away on that "Father forgive them" stuff, though. That's right out, isn't it?

I have no idea where you got the idea that God created most people for hell, but I can confirm that it's a ridiculous idea.

No, I go after firewood and share the gospel with them. In other words I share the gospel with every creature, because I don't know who the elect are and who the firewood are. Neither have a visible 666 or the seal of God on their foreheads.

That would be right out, if you were able to identify who the "them" are, in your paraphrasing. Are you referring to the reprobate Devils like Judas Iscariot???, yeah I thought so.

 

[Dan1988]

Yeah, God can't really destroy body and soul in hell. Totally impossible. "Ye shall not surely die", right?

That would be right if you knew what "destroy" and "die" means, but you're obviously clueless. Right?, right

 

[zelosravioli]

That would be right if you knew what "destroy" and "die" means, but you're obviously clueless. Right?, right

there is no such thing as cessation of existence.

Jipsah said: 'Yeah, God can't really destroy body and soul in hell. Totally impossible. "Ye shall not surely die", right? (Jipsah post #215)

Much of Jipsahs post is sarcasm, so I dont know why you didnt see this was sarcasm.
You are the one who said "there is no cessation of existence"

So Dan, what are 'you' saying "destroy" and "die" mean, since we are clueless to what you mean...

 

[JohnD70X7]

Quote the verses please.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What about the spirit?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The outer man (body and soul) are destroyed (carcus: Isaiah 66:24a / ashes: Micah 4:3).

But the inner man (spirit or "worm" describing the spirit like a worm in a piece of fruit)

Isaiah 66:24b quoted 3 times in Mark 9:44-48

Their worm dieth not and the fire is never quenched.

Luke 16:19-31 reveals the state of the spirit (or worm) of the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in Gehenna (the grave where spirits were kept until the cross of Christ for believers [see Ephesians 4:8-10 / 2 Corinthians 5:8] and until judgment day for unbelievers [see Revelation 20:10-15] ).

 

[snowbound]

Eternal torment for the spirit (worm) in Isaiah and Mark.

Eternal torment no longer works as a conversion tool. Since when is a worm the spirit? Stop making things up.

It makes zero sense that after one dies, God torments the person until judgment. God throws people into a burning hell for eternity before they are judged. I just don't see a loving merciful God tormenting people for eternity for living a vapor's worth of life.

WORM...
specifically, that kind which preys upon dead bodies

'their punishment after death will never cease'...death is their punishment.

I can understand why unbelievers want nothing to do with us.
___________________________________
One day at the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ, death and Hades will give up the dead which are in them, and they will stand before the Great White Throne judgment of God, Revelation chapter 20.

Correct?

And whosoever's names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into Gehenna, this is the second death.

Death is eternal...there is no remembrance in the grave.

 

[hedrick]

WORM...
specifically, that kind which preys upon dead bodies

That is certainly what Isaiah meant. The difficulty is that by the 1st Cent some Jews understood the passage in Isaiah to be about torment in hell. I think Mark has the actual intention of Isaiah in mind, but it's possible that he is interpreting it in line with these traditions.

Here's the passage in a Targum, which may indicate how it was understood by some Jews at the time:

"And they shall go forth and look on the bodies of the sinful men who have rebelled against my Memra; for their breaths will not die and their fire shall not be quenched, and the wicked shall be judged in Gehinnom …” (quoted in Evans, C. A. (2001). Mark 8:27–16:20 ) Evans notes that this text is actually from after Jesus' time, but it is assumed to reflect some traditions at his time.

The difficulty is that the NT uses a variety of images, implying destruction, exclusion and punishment. It's easy to pick one and explain away the others. Even the Targum isn't entirely clear, but scholars do seem to think that punishment in eternal hell was a common belief, though views were no more uniform then than now. Personally, I think even the NT authors may not believe the same thing. with Matthew the most likely to accept eternal punishment, and Paul most likely to accept universal (or perhaps, almost universal) salvation.

 

[zelosravioli]

That is certainly what Isaiah meant. The difficulty is that by the 1st Cent some Jews understood the passage in Isaiah to be about torment in hell. I think Mark has the actual intention of Isaiah in mind, but it's possible that he is interpreting it in line with these traditions.

Here's the passage in a Targum, which may indicate how it was understood by some Jews at the time:

"And they shall go forth and look on the bodies of the sinful men who have rebelled against my Memra; for their breaths will not die and their fire shall not be quenched, and the wicked shall be judged in Gehinnom …” (quoted in Evans, C. A. (2001). Mark 8:27–16:20 ) Evans notes that this text is actually from after Jesus' time, but it is assumed to reflect some traditions at his time.

The difficulty is that the NT uses a variety of images, implying destruction, exclusion and punishment. It's easy to pick one and explain away the others. Even the Targum isn't entirely clear, but scholars do seem to think that punishment in eternal hell was a common belief, though views were no more uniform then than now. Personally, I think even the NT authors may not believe the same thing. with Matthew the most likely to accept eternal punishment, and Paul most likely to accept universal (or perhaps, almost universal) salvation.

"... some Jews understood the passage in Isaiah to be about torment in hell"

The passage in Isaiah is describing the future, it is the last chapter and culmination of the previous 65 chapters. Note the 66:24 worm passage proceeds with 'For behold, the LORD will come in fire, And His chariots like the whirlwind...'

These are describing the end of times, after the Lord has come, after judgment, maybe in the new heavens and earth:

Isaiah 66:15-24 'For behold, the LORD will come in fire, And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on humanity, And those put to death by the LORD will be many... “For just as the new heavens and the new earth, Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “So will your descendants and your name endure. 23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “Then they will go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be extinguished; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind”

Yes, in Jesus' time the word Gehenna had became the common vernacular for the fiery place of the dead (translated hell) as depicted by the Valley of Hinnom - the 'place where the dead sinners are thrown, tormented and burned'. Still there is no evidence that Jesus meant that Gehenna was a place where were souls are tormented forever. The passage in Isaiah may depict Gehenna but still there are no corpses alive, or writhing in pain. The scene is the likely in the new world, post judgment and the bodies have already been burned.

Jesus may well be also thinking of similar passages like in Jeremiah 19 below:

Jeremiah 19:6-8 'Therefore, behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the Valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the Valley of Slaughter. 7 And I will frustrate the planning of Judah and Jerusalem in this place, and I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life; and I will make their carcasses food for the birds of the sky and the animals of the earth. 8 I will also turn this city into an object of horror and hissing; everyone who passes by it will be appalled and hiss because of all its disasters'

Jeremiah 19:8 "... everyone who passes by it will be appalled and hiss because of all its disasters'
Isaiah 66:24 Then they will go out and look at the corpses of the people

 

[Jipsah]

If God didn't torment lost sinners in hell, then He would be a corrupt and evil god.

That had to be one of the dumbest assertions I've ever seen. Is it a foundational belief of your sect?

Those dead in their sin, don't know the first thig about God, so they are naturally bound to make all kinds of silly assumptions about what He does and what he doesn't do.

Well, you've provided ample evidence of that,

The damned will be reunited with their body of sin, which thewy will be stuck in for all eternity.

I see. This comes from some kind of personal revelation you've been given, does it?

I don't know which bible you get that nonsense from, but it's not in the Holy Bible.

Amazingly enough, I was about to say much the same thing to you. I take it your lot has their own unique "interpretations" of SCcipture that don't depend on what the Bible actually says. That hardly comes as a shock.