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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This passage, out-of-context of course, is often quoted as a proof text for UR. But let us read the passage in-context and see what it really says.
    1 Corinthians 3:9-17
    (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
    Who is Paul's audience? This not a sermon on Mars hills to a group of pagans. Paul is writing a letter to a church addressing Christians, i.e. laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, not all of mankind.
    (10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    "Every man" here is not all mankind but the laborers together with God building on the foundation of Jesus Christ.
    (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    Throughout this passage "no man,""any man,,"every man" is addressed to the same group in vs. 10, not all mankind. "Any man's/every man's work" is not the works of every man ever born but the same group in vs. 10. "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building," who are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    This passage does not support UR. Note vs. 17, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.", "Destroy" not "saved; yet so as by fire."
     
  2. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Just show us how you understand what God is doing with spiritual fire. How would know this does not support UR? God's fire is spiritual for God has no use for physical fire (What is God going to do roast hot dogs with this physical fire. But you need to be spiritual to understand that so keep on the good work trying to analysts something spiritual with definition from some long dead scholar.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have heard this all before many, many times. Spiritualize everything in the Bible. By doing that someone can make the Bible say anything they want it to claiming that only they have the true, truth. Sorry I don't buy your "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo.
     
  4. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I am sure you have but seeing you are NOT spiritual you have NO clue when it comes to something you are not.
     
  5. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Why would God Spirit reveal His hidden spiritual mysteries to someone who is so earth bound?
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    That says "every man", not "every saint", not "every believer", not "every church member", not "every Christian", not "everyone of us", and not "every labourer", etc.

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare the destruction of v.17 to the destruction for salvation here:

    1 Cor. 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    So one who is destroyed & unsaved (3:17; 5:5) will still be saved (3:15).

    Verse 17 of the context immediately following v.15 explains who those (lost ones) are that shall be saved:

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare:

    1 Cor. 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

    Therefore 3:15 can & does refer to unsaved persons getting saved. The most immediate context proves it.

    You overlook the immediate context which refers to those who are unsaved (v.17a):

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare these verses, which also speaks of God destroying [albeit indirectly] an unsaved person, by giving him to Satan, in order to save him:

    1 Cor. 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

    Therefore 3:15 can & does refer to unsaved persons. The most immediate context proves it.

    Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth,
    but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate
    following context both support the view that v.15 refers to the unsaved being saved.

    Verses 16-17 of the context immediately following v.15 speaks of those who are not saved in 17a:

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare:

    1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

    Therefore 1 Cor.3:15 supports Scriptural Universalism, that all will be saved.

    Christ is the foundation for the entire world, not just believers. He died for all.

    He is the light that lighteth every one (John 1:9)

    How they respond to Him determines how they are building on the foundation.

    Some build with gold, silver & precious stones. Others build with wood hay & stubble:

    "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" (1 Corinthians 3:12)

    Silver indicates the redemption of Christ. Those who build with silver, build with faith in Christ as their redeemer. They are believers.

    Those who build with wood, hay & stubble build with things that will be destroyed by fire since they are not works of faith, but works of iniquity:

    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Their sinful works will be burned up, yet they will be saved, yet as by fire:

    1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    The one who is destroyed (v.17) refers back to the one who "shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (v.15). Verse 17 explains
    verse 15 of the immediate context. Similarly, in chapter 5, we have one destroyed in order for him to be saved:

    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Jesus is the Light that lightens every man (Jn.1:9). Human beings were made in God's image & likeness. They are temples made by God:

    Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens...
    24...[the] Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...25...
    he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;... 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God...

    1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    Compare:

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12, KJV)
    And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; (Rev.22:12, YLT)

    Jeremiah 17:10
    "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

    Revelation 2:23
    Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

    Romans 2:6-11 Who will render to every man according to his deeds…

    In Mt 25:31-46...the righteous & the unrighteous are distinguished by their works.

    James says faith without works is dead:

    James 2:20b-26 faith without works is dead 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Same ol' copy paste which ignores my post and addresses nothing I said.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  8. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    He's not saying anything spiritual so why would it matter?
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to your interpretation Origen speaks of the "fountain" leaping into "the Father" who is "beyond eternal life". What do you suppose the "fountain" in John 4 is? The fountain of "life", perhaps? Hence Ramelli's interpretation of "life after eternal life", eh?

    Origen speak of something else leaping into the "Father who is beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life."

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    Also aionios (mistranslated eternal) life can't be endless in the past here:
    Eternal life (1 Jn.1:2) is aionion life. Aionion is the Greek word that KJV translated "eternal" there.

    Scripture teaches the aionion times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9) & the aions (eons, ages) had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). Therefore aionion life must have had a beginning. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. And contradicts your (and my) belief that Christ is God & always was God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    We see here that the "times eonian"(aionion) had a beginning:

    in expectation of life eonian[aioniou], which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian[aionion], (Titus 1:2, CLV)

    before eternal times (Titus 1:2, Greek-English Interlinear, ACVI):
    Online Parallel Study Bibles

    Obviously there cannot be a "before eternal" past time. That would be nonsense. Therefore these "eternal"[aionion/eonian] times must have had a beginning.

    Likewise with 2 Tim.1:9,

    G4253προG5550χρόνωνG166αιωνίων
    .....BEFORE.........TIMES.......AIONION(EONIAN)

    "before times of the ages[aionion]":

    2 Timothy 1:9 Interlinear: who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian, (2 Tim.1:9, CLV)

    Similarly 1 Cor.2:7 speaks of "before the eons"[aionon], i.e. "before the ages" (NASB).
    And Jude 1:25 says "before all the eons"[aionos], i.e. "before all ages" (NIV).

    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.




    Why would Origen speak of such nonsense as an inanimate fountain leaping "after eternal life" into "the Father who is beyond eternal life"? In context Origen is speaking about "life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life."

    See above re context. And Origen is well known to support universalism. Although this particular passage has nothing to do with that subject, but rather the meaning of aionios, in particular life aionios.

    Already disproven above.



    Why, i gave the Greek text for portion 19. You didn't for portion 60.
    Here's another example of a quote i've provided the Greek text for:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    Which shows aionios is of finite duration. Refuting your arguments.

    As i've mentioned before my subscription expired.

    It's not only the word aionios is unknown, but the Greek words for all the rest of portion 60 which your opinion relies upon.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  11. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Isn't Origen the one who cut off his own penis because he misinterpreted Matthew 19:12 and then later on admitted he made a mistake? Is he the same guy? If he is, I sure wouldn't follow him. I wonder how many of his followers followed suit? Some spiritual discernment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  12. Jonathan Mathews

    Jonathan Mathews Well-Known Member

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    If God is Love, why did you sin against Him? Doesn't that alone make YOU evil and God the Merciful One? So then, why should God live eternally with an evil creature that hates Him? He has no obligation to endure THAT, does He, having created you from the dirt, for Himself... But God is Merciful and Gracious to you. That's why He gave Jesus Christ, the very Son and LIFE of God Almighty, to DIE in your place. Now if God has done all that for you... forgiving all your sin and DYING in the place of your own guilty self, and you STILL have animosity towards God for ANYTHING He has done, isn't it really YOU who truly deserves Hell???? But God STILL is giving you time to repent of your hateful, wicked heart towards Him, accept the gift of Jesus Christ, have all your sins removed, and be made Loving AND Holy like Him to live with Him in a community of Holy and Loving people, just as He so desires. For God takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked (even though they deserve it). Now what better deal can you be offered than that! And if you still reject the Mercy AND Grace of God, well then, you surely WOULD deserve Hell, and God is perfectly Just, Fair, and Good if He sends you there, isn't He? After all, God is Good, not you, right? As it is written "Whoever does not love Jesus Christ, let them be cursed/cutoff!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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