How Christ became superfluous

JCrawf said:

At the end of the paragraph, there is a footnote. If you followed it, you would have seen the references for Lumen Gentium (LG) 16 and Nostra Aetate (NA) 3. For now, let's focus on LG 16, the Dogmatic Constitution On the Church, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on Nov. 21, 1964:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.


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The first footnote (18), refers to St. Thomas Aquinas', Summa Theoliga, Ch III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1, which is as follows:

Question 8 is in regards to the section titled Of The Grace Of Christ, As He Is The Head Of The Church. a. 3 concerns the subordinate question of St. Thomas concerning Whether He is the Head of all men?. Ad. 1 notes the first contrary notion to the first objection, which is this stated:

Objection 1: It would seem that Christ is not the Head of all men. For the head has no relation except to the members of its body. Now the unbaptized are nowise members of the Church which is the body of Christ, as it is written (Eph. 1:23). Therefore Christ is not the Head of all men.

And the contrary statement:

On the contrary, It is written (1 Tim. 4:10): "Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful," and (1 Jn. 2:2): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Now to save men and to be a propitiation for their sins belongs to Christ as Head. Therefore Christ is the Head of all men. (bold, underlined, and in red my emphasis)

Even more interesting is the Saints reply to objection 1:

Reply to Objection 1: Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things---first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.

But here, we see that the Saint's views (and thus the reference of the Pope, and further into that of the Catechism) is grounded in both the Scriptures and principally in the power of Christ, "which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race."

(Continued...)

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Jebediah said:

No, I don't. And if you actually understood Catholic teachings rather than simply looking for stuff to attack (Because of course, Christ loves slandering people on web forums ) you wouldn't either. Bashing people is wrong, period.

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IJW said:

I beleive the scripture that you posted has more to do with personal decisions after salvation, not salvation in and of its own. (ie doctrine theology lifestyle...)

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (NIV)

To imply that there is an alternate route to salvation is to disregaurd Calvary. If there was another way to save us Christ would not have been crucified. I think that's pretty clear if you consider the garden of gethsemane.
God did establish his covenant with Israel, and I beleive He still honors that covenant, but that covenant was not about the removal of sin. Gods love is unconditional, but their is a condition for salvation, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as the crucified and reserected son of God, and your only savior.

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QuantaCura said:

Thanks Pope Redwolf for interpreting it for me. Please show me where it says that all Muslims are "saved." Maybe if you read that "treatise" in the context of all of Catholic belief you would have the interpretation I have.

We don't even use that protestant terminilogy where we walk around declaring we will definitely go to Heaven and pointing out who will definitely not go to Heaven. We let God do the judging. We put our faith in Christ. Unless you are a limited atonement guy, then you, like us, believe the plan of salvation includes all men. That's why Jesus came.

Only God will judge who has rejected the graces they have been given. You and I cannot judge that.

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QuantaCura said:

No one is implying an alternative route. No one will go to Heaven unless Jesus saves him. I think what many folks on this thread are forgetting is that Jesus is the one who saves, we do not save ourselves nor do we get to tell Him who to save and who not to--it is not by our own merit.

If a Muslim person dies in front of you, can you declare that person is definitely in Hell? How does this jive with Jesus telling us not to condemn lest we be condemned?

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IJW said:

These are not my standards they are Gods. It is impossibal for me to see what is in the heart of any man. But when Christ was explaining his standards he was pretty clear that anyone who rejected him would in turn be rejected. God makes the route to salvation pretty clear in his word and He is pretty clear about what is required. Again these are HIS standards I make refernce to not mine.

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JCrawf said:

The next reference in LG:

In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125)


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Here, Pope Paul VI goes for a straight reference to the Scriptures, that is to Rom. 9:4-5, which states:

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.


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Simply put, we must remember that it was through the Jews that the testament and promis was first given, and from whom we recieved our Lord Christ Jesus, as St. Paul also affirms.

Next reference from LG:

On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)



Again, a straight Biblical reference, this time to Rom. 11:28-29, which is thus quoted:

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


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Still pretty straight foreward as to what Pope Paul VI is trying to say. That is, the promise of Christ first came to the Jews, and they are still considered in the election of God as beloeved for the sake of their ancestors. Pope Paul VI thusly does not stray away from what seems to be quite becoming of a Pauline philosophy in his statements - even whith his reference to St. Thomas Aquinas, which happened to have references to two of St. Paul's writngs.

Next reference form LG:

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128)

Here we have two straight Scripture references in a row, first from Acts 17:24-28, and then next from 1 Tim. 2:3-4.



The first reference, Acts 17:24-28, as follows:

The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'"​

Seems like an interesting passage for a Pope to make, that is, if one considers this an argument for not having church buildings. Yet, true the his Pauline identity, the point here is not anti-church, but rather the closeness of God to His creation. For as St. Paul said, "though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'" (vv. 27b-28). Whose poets is St. Paul refering to? His audience here is not the Jews, but the gentiles in front of the Areopagus in Athens.

The second reference, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, as follows:

This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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Here, the reference of Pope Paul VI to St. Paul is quite clear, that God, our Lord and saviour "desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Is there any exclusion to this desire, this will of God? In short, no, it appears there is not. For this will of God that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of truth is at the heart of God's revelation and call to all humanity, gentile or Jew.

(Continued...)

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jckstraw72 said:

1. im Orthodox
2. saying that someone who doesnt profess Chrsitianity can be saved doesnt mean its an alternate route than Christ. Without Christ's sacrifice no one would be saved. ANYONE who is saved will be saved through Christ. We'll let who is and who isnt saved up to His mercy.

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