How Christ became superfluous

[Redwolf]

Next reference form LG:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)

The reference is Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep, which I cannot find online, nor do I have the time and resources to find it offline. However, anyone who may have such, I welcome them to take up this reference and comment on what is said in it and what references are made in it.



Next reference from LG:

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*)​

The reference is to Eusebius of Caesarea, Praeparatio Evangelica Book I, Ch.1, of which the following is an excerpt:

What then can be more blessed than this excellent and all-happy friendship with God? Is not He both the dispenser and provider to all men of life and light and truth and all things good? Does He not contain in Himself the cause of the being and the life of all things? To one then who has secured friendship with Him what more can be wanting? What can he lack, who has made the Creator of all true blessings his friend? Or who can be superior to him who claims in the place of a father and a guardian the great President and absolute Monarch of the universe?

Nay, it is not possible to mention anything in which he who draws near in disposition to God the absolute Monarch, and through his intelligent piety has been deemed worthy of His all-blessed friendship, can fail to be happy alike in soul and body and all outward things.

It is then this good and saving friendship of men with God that the Word of God sent down from above, like a ray of infinite light, from the God of all goodness proclaims as good tidings to all men; and urges them to come not from this or that place but from every part out of all nations to the God of the universe, and to hasten and accept the gift with all eagerness of soul, Greeks and Barbarians together, men, women, and children, both rich and poor, wise and simple, not deeming even slaves unworthy of His call.

For indeed their Father, having constituted them all of one essence and nature, rightly admitted them all to share in His one equal bounty, bestowing the knowledge of Himself and friendship with Him upon all who were willing to hearken, and who readily welcomed His grace.

This friendship with His Father Christ's word came to preach to the whole world: for, as the divine oracles teach,

'God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them,'[2 Cor. 5:19] and 'He came,' they say, 'and preached peace to them that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh.'[Eph. 2:17]

These things the sons of the Hebrews were long ago inspired to prophesy to the whole world, one crying,

'All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the LORD, and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Him: for the kingdom is the LORD'S, and He is the ruler over the nations' [Ps. 22:27-28]; and again, 'Tell it out among the heathen that the LORD is king, for He hath also stablished the world, which shall not be moved' [Ps. 96:10]; and another saith, 'The LORD will appear among them, and will utterly destroy all the gods of the nations of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place.' [Zeph. 2:11]

These promises, having been long ago laid up in divine oracles, have now shone forth upon our own age through the teaching of our Saviour Jesus Christ; so that the knowledge of God among all nations, which was both proclaimed of old and looked for by those who were not ignorant of these matters, is duly preached to us by the Word, who has lately come from heaven, and shows that the actual fulfilment corresponds with the voices of the men of old.

​

(continued...)

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)

Ignorance is no excuse, as ignorance of the law is not excuse. There are not many people left on this planet who have not heard of the Christ. It is extremely arrogant to proclaim that not knowing the Gospel of Christ is ok. As for the human conscience? You can depend on it that it is not dependable.

 

[Redwolf]

...maybe if you tried to be a bit less offensive...

The truth always offends. Many, many people around Christ were offended, because He told them the truth.
Whenever the RCC faces scrutiny, accusations fly. That's really too bad.

 

[Redwolf]

Thought myposts that connected the paragraph to its references to Lumen Gentium, as well as the various references and their context to scripture adequately helped to explain, but I guess not.

But what doyou expect when Prots don't even take the time to read and research these things themselves. Should I expect them to look at it when it has been drawn out for them?

Pax Tecum,

John

Hello, Cath.

Nothing, and I mean nothing your church has to offer by way of explanations is acceptable to this Prot.
Sincerely,
Prot

 

[seminarywifealicia]

sorry, I was responding to a post on the first page..this thread is a lot longer than I thought.. Nevahmind..lol

 

[Redwolf]

No matter what, we, who are in Christ, are commanded to do this:

LOVE​

To point something out is one thing...​

...To bash needlessly is another.

you set the criteria for bashing.
that is not acceptable.

 

[Tonks]

I liked it better when the OP talked to himself. Not recognizing that God's mercy extends to all is decided un-Christian.

Believe what you will.

 

[Redwolf]

I wish there was a part in the Catechism that noted that Catholics cannot be held responsible for those that have little knowledge of Catholic Theology and don't even bother to learn the basics of it.

I bet that part would never be quoted.

Frankly, the OP can believe whatever he wants about the bit in the CCC he quoted. Doesn't have any effect on me nor do I particularly care about his personal interptation of it.

Good for you. The OP wouldn't have it any other way.
You have no knowledge as to what or how much I know about the RCC. It looks much different from the outside, especially when the inside is so warm and comfy.
Blessings to you.

 

[Tonks]

Ironic that they can be saved without Christ, but Baptists who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior by faith will be damned if they reject the Catholic church.

I suppose, of course, that you're willing to provide an official pronouncement by the Catholic Church that Baptists, specifically, are damned.

Good luck finding one.

If none of the explanations are acceptable why bother contining the thread? Ah, I get it...more RCC bashing. Pathetic.

 

[Tonks]

You have no knowledge as to what or how much I know about the RCC.

You are, of course, correct. One can only judge by what they can read. If our judgments WRT your knowledge are off it must be due to the lack of displayed knowledge.

 

[graysparrow]

The truth always offends. Many, many people around Christ were offended, because He told them the truth.
Whenever the RCC faces scrutiny, accusations fly. That's really too bad.

No boy, it's you the one who ofends.

 

[Redwolf]

its amazing how you know what is truly in every Muslim's heart. Im sure not a single Muslim is a seeker after truth.

You're sure and that makes it true.
You know much about Islam? Anything at all? Only what you see happening around the world?
There's more, much much more.
Try googling 'the prophet of doom' and do a little reading. Or go to CARM and help yourself. There you have a few Christians who had their life threatened.........but, shucks, who cares?

 

[Redwolf]

You forget the following pertinent parts:

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333......

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.Last time I looked into things Christ died for all men and God grants grace to all - not merely those that have ticked all the boxes off on your checklist.

although it is forgettable, I do not forget it for a minit. It's the issue here, what the church teaches is the issue.

 

[Tonks]

although it is forgettable, I do not forget it for a minit. It's the issue here, what the church teaches is the issue.

I'm fully aware of what the church teaches - as is pretty much everone else in this tread: nothing has been illuminated, sorry to say.

 

[jckstraw72]

You're sure and that makes it true.
You know much about Islam? Anything at all? Only what you see happening around the world?
There's more, much much more.
Try googling 'the prophet of doom' and do a little reading. Or go to CARM and help yourself. There you have a few Christians who had their life threatened.........but, shucks, who cares?

and what does any of this have to do with the possibility of salvation for individual Muslims?

and yes, i know about Islam, im a religious studies major.

 

[CaDan]

Good for you. The OP wouldn't have it any other way.
You have no knowledge as to what or how much I know about the RCC. It looks much different from the outside, especially when the inside is so warm and comfy.
Blessings to you.

Come on in!

We got bingo!

 

[freespiritchurch]

As far as I can tell, you have to choose between the Catholic view on this issue, or become a double-predestination Calvinists.

If you have to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved, then the people who never have a chance to hear the Gospel are doomed from the start, without any chance to exercise free will.

But wait...what about the people who hear the Gospel and reject it? Aren't they damned?

Well, that's a more complicated question than it might seem at first. To take an extreme example, imagine that you're one of the Muslim residents of Jerusalem in 1099. You're minding your own business when an army shows up at the gates. They explain that they've come in the name of Jesus Christ to conquer your city. You put up a fight; they march in and kill everyone they can find, until they're knee-deep in blood and guts. Then they enslave you and everyone else who managed to survive, and joyfully proclaim the victory they've won in Jesus Christ. The next week, while you're in chains, someone tells you about what a great guy Jesus is, and how you should sign up with the soldiers. What would you say?

The point of this extended example is to suggest that "preaching the Gospel" is more complicated than we might think. Telling someone the facts about Jesus while you're conquering his country, killing his family, or stealing from him might not be preaching the Gospel. When you consider the example that Christians set before the world, it's safe to say that there are still very many people who have never had the Gospel preached to them. For those people, there are only two possibilities--either they've been damned from birth with no hope of redemption, or God has provided some way for them to receive the salvation He gave to the world through Jesus Christ.

 

[Redwolf]

I suppose, of course, that you're willing to provide an official pronouncement by the Catholic Church that Baptists, specifically, are damned.

Good luck finding one.

If none of the explanations are acceptable why bother contining the thread? Ah, I get it...more RCC bashing. Pathetic.

Baptists are an integral part of the Protestant movement.
And Protestants are heretics.
Try again?

 

[CaDan]

Baptists are an integral part of the Protestant movement.
And Protestants are heretics.
Try again?

1. Go float the idea that "Baptists are Protestants" over in Baptists/Anabaptists. Bet you get some interesting arguments!

2. Equivocation will get you to lots of interesting places, but sound conclusions ain't one of 'em.

 

[graysparrow]

Baptists are an integral part of the Protestant movement.
And Protestants are heretics.
Try again?

Try again yourself,

nobody says protestants are doomed...

and if you disagree you can denounce Miguel de Luis y Espinosa (that's me) to my bishop

unlike you I have much to lose

 

[Redwolf]

As far as I can tell, you have to choose between the Catholic view on this issue, or become a double-predestination Calvinists.

If you have to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved, then the people who never have a chance to hear the Gospel are doomed from the start, without any chance to exercise free will.

But wait...what about the people who hear the Gospel and reject it? Aren't they damned?

Well, that's a more complicated question than it might seem at first. To take an extreme example, imagine that you're one of the Muslim residents of Jerusalem in 1099. You're minding your own business when an army shows up at the gates. They explain that they've come in the name of Jesus Christ to conquer your city. You put up a fight; they march in and kill everyone they can find, until they're knee-deep in blood and guts. Then they enslave you and everyone else who managed to survive, and joyfully proclaim the victory they've won in Jesus Christ. The next week, while you're in chains, someone tells you about what a great guy Jesus is, and how you should sign up with the soldiers. What would you say?

The point of this extended example is to suggest that "preaching the Gospel" is more complicated than we might think. Telling someone the facts about Jesus while you're conquering his country, killing his family, or stealing from him might not be preaching the Gospel. When you consider the example that Christians set before the world, it's safe to say that there are still very many people who have never had the Gospel preached to them. For those people, there are only two possibilities--either they've been damned from birth with no hope of redemption, or God has provided some way for them to receive the salvation He gave to the world through Jesus Christ.

No Christian kills for Christ. It is not required. It is, however, required to kill for Mahomet, or Allah.
Just because the house flies Christ's banner, doesn't mean He is in residence.