How Christ became superfluous

[IJW]

Romans 3:21-31

 

[JCrawf]

Next reference from LG:

But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129)​

Again, we see another direct reference of Pope Paul VI to the Scriptures, this time the reference is to Rom. 1: 21,25, which is as follows:

v. 21: for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened.

v. 25: because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

It is fairly clear cut what Pope Paul VI is writing about here, as it is the same as what St. Paul has written. So there isn't much need to exegete this much further.


Next, and final reference to LG:

Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.​

This reference is to Mark 16:15, which is as follows:

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation."​

The importance of the Church's mission to do so is pretty clear in the next verse: "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned" (v. 16). But the Pope in this instance is speaking on the role of the Church in the world - that is, to "Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation."

Thus, to sum up from the all previous posts regarding the reference to LG 16 from the Catechism's statment:

841: The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

The following can be noted as to this teaching this way:

1. As with St. Thomas Aquinas' statement, the Church believes that, "Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially." This potentiality is rooted in two things: first and principally, in the power of Christ; and secondly, in free-will. It is also believed by the Church that, as St. Thomas Aquinas stated that the power of Christ "is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race."

2. Savation came through the Jews, and thus to the Israelites belongs "the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever" (Rom. 9:4-5). Accordingly and in regards to the election, the Jews "are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:28-29). But even further, "in the sight of God our Savior," we are told that He "desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

3. In reference to Eusebius of Caesarea, is answered his retorical question to state that indeed God is a.) "both the dispenser and provider to all men of life and light and truth and all things good," and b.) contains in Himself "the cause of the being and the life of all things." For theFather, "having constituted them all of one essence and nature, rightly admitted them all to share in His one equal bounty, bestowing the knowledge of Himself and friendship with Him upon all who were willing to hearken."

God of all Creation proclaims "good tidings to all men" urging them to come "from every part out of all nations to the God of the universe." For the promise of the oracles of God, "have now shone forth upon our own age through the teaching of our Saviour Jesus Christ" which were spoken by the prophets, who showed that the "actual fulfilment corresponds with the voices of the men of old."


4. Because of the deceptions of the Evil One, men "became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened" (Rom. 1:21). Because of this, some have "exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (Rom. 1:25). Nevertheless, we the Body of Christ, the Church, is to "promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these," being mindful of the command of the Lord: "Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation" (Mark 16:15).


All this, and more, is wrapped up in the one reference in paragraph 841 of the Catholic Catechism. The point? Regardless of what one may thing of a persons origins, nationality, or religion, we are still called to go and proclaim the Gospel to the whole creation, knowing that God's divine will is that all might be saved.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[graysparrow]

Hello, Redwolf
Looks like no one wants to give you an explanation of how this is possible.
What did you say? You thought that might happen?
Well, then you are not surprised, eh, what?

...maybe if you tried to be a bit less offensive...

 

[JCrawf]

Thought myposts that connected the paragraph to its references to Lumen Gentium, as well as the various references and their context to scripture adequately helped to explain, but I guess not.

But what doyou expect when Prots don't even take the time to read and research these things themselves. Should I expect them to look at it when it has been drawn out for them?

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[Mea Culpa]

No matter what, we, who are in Christ, are commanded to do this:

LOVE​

To point something out is one thing...​

...To bash needlessly is another.

 

[JCrawf]

No matter what, we, who are in Christ, are commanded to do this:

LOVE​

To point something out is one thing...​

...To bash needlessly is another.

Indeed
good point
You make regarding
our call to love
one another
in Christ
amen.

​

Pax Tecum,


















​

John​

 

[Redwolf]

At the end of the paragraph, there is a footnote. If you followed it, you would have seen the references for Lumen Gentium (LG) 16 and Nostra Aetate (NA) 3. For now, let's focus on LG 16, the Dogmatic Constitution On the Church, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on Nov. 21, 1964:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.


​

The first footnote (18), refers to St. Thomas Aquinas', Summa Theoliga, Ch III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1, which is as follows:

Question 8 is in regards to the section titled Of The Grace Of Christ, As He Is The Head Of The Church. a. 3 concerns the subordinate question of St. Thomas concerning Whether He is the Head of all men?. Ad. 1 notes the first contrary notion to the first objection, which is this stated:

Objection 1: It would seem that Christ is not the Head of all men. For the head has no relation except to the members of its body. Now the unbaptized are nowise members of the Church which is the body of Christ, as it is written (Eph. 1:23). Therefore Christ is not the Head of all men.

And the contrary statement:

On the contrary, It is written (1 Tim. 4:10): "Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful," and (1 Jn. 2:2): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Now to save men and to be a propitiation for their sins belongs to Christ as Head. Therefore Christ is the Head of all men. (bold, underlined, and in red my emphasis)

Even more interesting is the Saints reply to objection 1:

Reply to Objection 1: Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things---first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.

But here, we see that the Saint's views (and thus the reference of the Pope, and further into that of the Catechism) is grounded in both the Scriptures and principally in the power of Christ, "which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race."

(Continued...)

Sufficient when you AVAIL yourself and only by the front door and NEVER on someone's slickyslide.
Enjoy!

 

[Redwolf]

No, I don't. And if you actually understood Catholic teachings rather than simply looking for stuff to attack (Because of course, Christ loves slandering people on web forums ) you wouldn't either. Bashing people is wrong, period.

So, if I tell you that the pope calls himself God on earth, I'm bashing the RCC? Or any expository efforts are bashing even if they are true? You like it both ways, don't you?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).

So, here is what I know about Catholic teachings. Nary a single doctrine is based on scripture. Nor does the church make any bones about it.
See council of Trent for confirmation.

[/FONT]

 

[Tonks]

I wish there was a part in the Catechism that noted that Catholics cannot be held responsible for those that have little knowledge of Catholic Theology and don't even bother to learn the basics of it.

I bet that part would never be quoted.

Frankly, the OP can believe whatever he wants about the bit in the CCC he quoted. Doesn't have any effect on me nor do I particularly care about his personal interptation of it.

 

[Redwolf]

I beleive the scripture that you posted has more to do with personal decisions after salvation, not salvation in and of its own. (ie doctrine theology lifestyle...)

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (NIV)

To imply that there is an alternate route to salvation is to disregaurd Calvary. If there was another way to save us Christ would not have been crucified. I think that's pretty clear if you consider the garden of gethsemane.
God did establish his covenant with Israel, and I beleive He still honors that covenant, but that covenant was not about the removal of sin. Gods love is unconditional, but their is a condition for salvation, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as the crucified and reserected son of God, and your only savior.

And that is why the title of this thread contains the word superfluous. Little by little, the RCC has whittled away on the plan of salvation through Christ, and HIM ALONE. Neither muslim nor jew avails himself of the saving grace of our Lord. They are not saved. Simple as that.
It is Jesus alone who saves. No Jesus, no salvation, and therefore no heaven. It doesn't take any genius to determine this fact.
Thank you for your words.
Redwolf

 

[Tonks]

This entire thread can be summed us thusly:

 

[Redwolf]

Thanks Pope Redwolf for interpreting it for me. Please show me where it says that all Muslims are "saved." Maybe if you read that "treatise" in the context of all of Catholic belief you would have the interpretation I have.

We don't even use that protestant terminilogy where we walk around declaring we will definitely go to Heaven and pointing out who will definitely not go to Heaven. We let God do the judging. We put our faith in Christ. Unless you are a limited atonement guy, then you, like us, believe the plan of salvation includes all men. That's why Jesus came.

Only God will judge who has rejected the graces they have been given. You and I cannot judge that.

Nice try, guy. No muslim is saved unless he/she ACCEPTS the Christ as his/her personal saviour.
There is no other way under heaven by which man is saved. The Bible says it, I believe it, and I'm here to tell it.

 

[Redwolf]

No one is implying an alternative route. No one will go to Heaven unless Jesus saves him. I think what many folks on this thread are forgetting is that Jesus is the one who saves, we do not save ourselves nor do we get to tell Him who to save and who not to--it is not by our own merit.

If a Muslim person dies in front of you, can you declare that person is definitely in Hell? How does this jive with Jesus telling us not to condemn lest we be condemned?

if a muslim dies in front of me, he/she will not go to heaven. if a muslim turned Christian dies in front of me, he/she has a very good chance. how would a muslim fit into a Christian heaven when he/she has no clue about Christ?
Well, I'm sure you can think of something.

 

[Redwolf]

These are not my standards they are Gods. It is impossibal for me to see what is in the heart of any man. But when Christ was explaining his standards he was pretty clear that anyone who rejected him would in turn be rejected. God makes the route to salvation pretty clear in his word and He is pretty clear about what is required. Again these are HIS standards I make refernce to not mine.

Under the influence of the Holy Spirit?
Very nice.
Redwolf

 

[Tonks]

Nice try, guy. No muslim is saved unless he/she ACCEPTS the Christ as his/her personal saviour.
There is no other way under heaven by which man is saved. The Bible says it, I believe it, and I'm here to tell it.

It was the sacrificial act of Christ that is salvific, not our belief in it.

As with your following post, if a Muslim or whomever has no knowledge of Christ how can they be held responsible?

 

[jckstraw72]

Nice try, guy. No muslim is saved unless he/she ACCEPTS the Christ as his/her personal saviour.
There is no other way under heaven by which man is saved. The Bible says it, I believe it, and I'm here to tell it.

its amazing how you know what is truly in every Muslim's heart. Im sure not a single Muslim is a seeker after truth.

 

[Redwolf]

The next reference in LG:

In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125)


​

Here, Pope Paul VI goes for a straight reference to the Scriptures, that is to Rom. 9:4-5, which states:

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.


​

Simply put, we must remember that it was through the Jews that the testament and promis was first given, and from whom we recieved our Lord Christ Jesus, as St. Paul also affirms.

Next reference from LG:

On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)



Again, a straight Biblical reference, this time to Rom. 11:28-29, which is thus quoted:

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


​

Still pretty straight foreward as to what Pope Paul VI is trying to say. That is, the promise of Christ first came to the Jews, and they are still considered in the election of God as beloeved for the sake of their ancestors. Pope Paul VI thusly does not stray away from what seems to be quite becoming of a Pauline philosophy in his statements - even whith his reference to St. Thomas Aquinas, which happened to have references to two of St. Paul's writngs.

Next reference form LG:

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128)

Here we have two straight Scripture references in a row, first from Acts 17:24-28, and then next from 1 Tim. 2:3-4.



The first reference, Acts 17:24-28, as follows:

The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'"​

Seems like an interesting passage for a Pope to make, that is, if one considers this an argument for not having church buildings. Yet, true the his Pauline identity, the point here is not anti-church, but rather the closeness of God to His creation. For as St. Paul said, "though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'" (vv. 27b-28). Whose poets is St. Paul refering to? His audience here is not the Jews, but the gentiles in front of the Areopagus in Athens.

The second reference, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, as follows:

This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
​

Here, the reference of Pope Paul VI to St. Paul is quite clear, that God, our Lord and saviour "desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Is there any exclusion to this desire, this will of God? In short, no, it appears there is not. For this will of God that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of truth is at the heart of God's revelation and call to all humanity, gentile or Jew.

(Continued...)

John 3:16

Whosoever avails himself/herself of the saving grace of our Lord .... is saved. And no one else.

 

[Tonks]

John 3:16

Whosoever avails himself/herself of the saving grace of our Lord .... is saved. And no one else.

Ah, God...in one nice, neat & tidy little box.

 

[Redwolf]

1. im Orthodox
2. saying that someone who doesnt profess Chrsitianity can be saved doesnt mean its an alternate route than Christ. Without Christ's sacrifice no one would be saved. ANYONE who is saved will be saved through Christ. We'll let who is and who isnt saved up to His mercy.

anyone who is saved is saved by chosing Christ as his Saviour. No Christ, no salvation. Muslim, Jew, Hottentot or Hittite, choose Christ, and the process of salvation begins.
Just because these people believe in God, and say "Lord, Lord", does not assure them salvation.
And muslims and jews do say lord lord, but not Jesus. And the RCC says that saying lord lord is enough.
Read it again.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
​

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Tonks]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

You forget the following pertinent parts:

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333......

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.Last time I looked into things Christ died for all men and God grants grace to all - not merely those that have ticked all the boxes off on your checklist.