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A conversation about unity.

childeye 2

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These verses refer to the True Israel among the Jews driven into exile until 1948 - we are in a late hour. The True Vine - Children of Abraham - not Mary.
When I think of "the mother of us all", I recall these verses:

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 
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Carl Emerson

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As do we Orthodox, and also the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East (whose full titles include the word Catholic). The Eastern Orthodox also regard ourselves as being Roman (hence the demonym Rum for Eastern Orthodox in the Levant, or the area of Europe north of Greece containing the Balkans, Bulgarian and Romania having been called Roumelia by the Ottoman Empire).

That said unlike some I believe the Roman Catholic Church is definitely as Roman as we are, and Catholicity is evinced by the efficacy of your sacraments.



Your church also has officially said the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East have valid sacraments and a valid clergy, and I agree. Regarding the Oriental Orthodox the Antiochian church, who the Melkite Greek Catholics wish to unite with, has an ecumenical agreement with the Syriac Orthodox (who themselves call Antiochians Melkites - in a sense one could call Antiochians “Melkite Orthodox”), whereby Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian faithful in the Middle East are allowed to receive the sacraments in each other’s churches, and to intermarry, but cannot be received into the other church, since the two churches have recognized their mutual validity. A similar but less expansive agreement exists between the Coptic Orthodox and the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.

In the case of the Assyrian Church of the East, they are sadly the only Eastern church that will always offer the Eucharist to Roman Catholics (their requirement for partaking is believing the Nicene Creed and the Real Presence, that the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Christ our Lord). And thus some degree of intercommunion between Chaldean Catholics, who are the mainly Arabic speaking East Syriac Christians centered around Baghdad, and the mainly Aramaic speaking Assyrians of the Church of the East, does happen. The Chaldeans have also sought to merge with the Assyrians. The Chaldeans often have very good liturgics, although I am annoyed at the current Patriarch of Babylon (a title I love, because it seems designed to tick off anti-Catholics) for not wearing the Shash, the traditional headgear also known as the Shashta or Kossita worn by the bishops of Christian churches in Iraq.

What all these churches have in common, in addition to priests who can consecrate the Eucharist, is a profound devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The idea that only a chosen 'ordained' few can validly break bread in remembrance of Jesus cements the concept of a seperate priesthood within the body and establishes the clergy-laity divide. Sadly this in its self works against true unity and opens the door to a power divide that many from a craving to control grab onto (not all)

We know from John 10 that a hired hand is not a Shepherd. We also know that Jesus dismissed the disciple's objection to folks ministering in His Name outside the flock.
 
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The Liturgist

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Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Anglican church are: Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption of Mary.
Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Lutheran church are: Mary as Intercessor, Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity.

You’ve read wrong. Martin Luther and the founders of the Anglican church all affirmed the Perpetual Virginity of the Theotokos. This doctrine was also affirmed by John Wesley, and even by John Calvin. Also, all of the above (reluctantly, in the case of Calvin, who was accused of Nestorianism by the Lutherans, who he in turn accused of Monophysitism, which is actually extinct as a heresy, but the Lutherans are in good company being falsely accused of Monophysitism, for indeed Martin Luther realized from the example of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, at the time part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, an Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction, that communion with Rome was something that had to be maintained at all costs for ecclesiastical legitimacy.

Indeed, Martin Luther prayed the Hail Mary frequently as part of his prayer rule. Now, it is true that the version he prayed omitted the intercessory petition; Martin Luther disagreed with the idea of asking saints for intercessory prayer; this is one of only a few points of difference between him and confessional Lutherans such as my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @ViaCrucis and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglo-Catholics and Roman Catholics*. However, to be fair, Martin Luther thought he was praying an older Eastern Orthodox version of the Ave Maria used by the Eastern Orthodox which lacked an intercessory petition, and this belief remains common among Lutherans. What he was actually praying a Marian hymn called a Theotokion from Orthros (Matins), the primary variable portion of the Orthodox Divine Office, which often closely resembles the Hail Mary, albeit not necessarily with an intercession, but rather with a glorification. The Stavrotheotokia, which are hymns lauding the Blessed Virgin Mary at the foot of the Cross during the passion of her Son, Christ our God, are some of the most beautiful and powerful hymns in use in the Christian church, and also, like the rest of the Theotokia, very ancient - most of the hymns from this part of the Byzantine Rite liturgy were composed by St. John of Damascus or the monks at Studion, some being older and some being newer, but with an average age of around 1300 years.

With Anglicanism, there is a thing called Churchmanship, in that in order to provide for the unity of the Church of England, the Elizabethan Settlement allowed for Anglicans to co-exist in one church despite some leaning more in a Reformed Calvinist or Zwinglian “low church” orientation and the others in a more Lutheran/Catholic and indeed Orthodox**-influenced “high church” orientation. There are also broad church parishes, which aim to include both groups (the height of this movement was with the Latitudinarians of the 18th century, who can be seen as English counterparts to the Pietist movement that had such a disastrous impact on the Lutheran church; Pietism coupled with Rationalism, imposed by the Calvinist Prussians in order to minimize theological dissent between the Lutheran majority in their vast and newly formed Kingdom and Calvinist minority, brought to an end the period of Lutheran Orthodoxy, in which the Church of Sweden and the Church of Saxony produced the exquisite liturgical music of Dietrich Buxtehude and his protege Johann Sebastian Bach, respectively, with a focus on doctrinal purity and correct worship (Orthodoxy literally means “Right Glorification”, and the Slavonic translation, Pravoslavie, means “True Glorification”). At any rate, since the 19th century there have been more strata of Anglican churchmanship: Anglo-Catholics, who are the highest of high church Anglicans, Evangelicals, who are more low church than the traditional Low Church Anglicans, some of whom, in terms of their formality, look High Church to the uninitiated, Liberal Catholics, who consist partially of malcontented former Roman Catholics and would-be Catholics who have an issue with some of the moral teaching of the Catholic Church surrounding divorce and remarriage, homosexuality, and other issues (the rise of Liberal Catholicism has largely pushed traditional conservative Anglo Catholicism out of the Episcopal Church in many dioceses; the Episcopal Church has always been very high church, but since 1979, in the dioceses under the control of more liberal bishops, things became increasingly uncomfortable for traditional Anglo Catholics, and they left - some joining the initial wave of departures in 1979, being part of the Continuing Anglican movement which also includes my dearly beloved High Church friends including one on this forum, others joining the more recently formed ACNA, and still others being a member of dioceses which left the Episcopal Church, in the case of the Diocese of Fort Worth taking their property with them. Still other Anglo Catholic dioceses such as that of Baton Rouge, Louisiana continue to retain a conservative character; there is also a conservative high church Anglo Catholic parish in Detroit which is so traditional, I was convinced it was Continuing Anglican and was genuinely shocked to discover it was still a part of the Episcopal Church (Detroit is also home to the Mariner’s Church, an independent liturgically Anglican parish serving the merchant marine that sails the Great Lakes, along with similar churches in other major ports on the US and Canadian shore; there are also churches in the coastal cities of the US and Europe which cater to mariners of different nationalities, often related to the national church if one exists, including several in London, despite the fact that London’s traditional seaports have been redeveloped, with commerce moving further away from the city). The Episcopal Church unsuccessfully attempted to assert control over the Mariner’s Church. There are also Anglo-Papalists, who are members of the Anglican Communion who believe in Papal Supremacy; most of them have joined the Anglican Ordinariates but a few remain in the Church of England and other Anglican bodies, agitating for submission of the Archbishop of Canterbury or their provincial archbishop or metropolitan to Ultramontanist authority.

* In the case of Lutheranism, it should be recognized that in general Martin Luther was trying to restore Patristic standards. The issues where his views, likely unbeknownst to him and to the shock of second generation Lutheran theologians who were finally able to dialogue with Patriarch Jeremias II of Constantinople, that have been divisive, include the idea of the episcopate as optional, the various solas, monergism, the rejection of intercessory prayer of the saints, and in terms of the liturgy, Martin Luther took a dim view of the Roman sacrament of Extreme Unction, but my understanding is that the pan-Orthodox liturgy of the anointing of the sick and those fasting with oil, which lacks the components of the Roman liturgy administered only to the dying that made Luther regard it as a curse, is not offensive to Lutherans (this liturgy is remarkable in that it is celebrated by Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox with very few variations; I have not examined the Armenian or Ethiopian forms of it but expect the Ethiopian would follow either the Coptic or Syriac pattern, as the Ethiopic liturgy was adopted from an older Jewish liturgy by the Seven Syrian Sages, a group of Syriac speaking liturgists from Antioch, in the fourth century, who were able to speak the Semitic Ge’ez language with greater ease than the mostly Greek and partially Coptic speaking Alexandrian clergy of the time; there are also naturally Coptic influences on the Ethiopian liturgy. In each case this liturgy consists of seven (or in the case of the Syriac Orthodox and Indian Orthodox use, five) sets of prayers and Scripture readings, in which seven Psalms, Epistles and Gospels are read and seven prayers for the sick are made, and, typically, seven oil lamps or wicks into a bowl of oil being consecrated are lit (this is always done in the Coptic and Syriac rite but I’m not sure if the Eastern Orthodox always do this). The person is then anointed with the oil, either on the forehead, or on multiple parts of the body.

** There is a long history of Eastern Orthodox influence on Anglicanism, going back to the Book of Common Prayer which includes among the prayers said at the end of at Morning Prayer and Evensong A Prayer of St. Chrysostom which is in fact the Prayer of the Second Antiphon from the Eastern Orthodox syanaxis or liturgy of the catechumens (liturgy of the Word in Roman Catholic and modern Protestant parlance), most commonly used with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but also used with the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (except in its vesperal form) and a few others, including the Armenian Orthodox liturgy, which implemented the same synaxis more or less during a period of Byzantine influence (there was also a period of Latin influence, so the Armenian liturgy has been, since the 15th century, a blend of Byzantine, Latin, Syro / Antiochene and indigenous Armenian influence as well as heavily influence from the Church of Jerusalem, whose liturgies influenced all of the other ancient churches). This has ohly intensified since then: for example, the Scottish and non-Juring English Episcopalians added the Epiclesis from the Orthodox DIvine Liturgy of St. James to the Anglican Communion Service (from which it made it into the traditional American Anglican liturgy) and indeed the Episcopal Church even came close to union with the Russian Orthodox Church, until the Bolshevik Revolution shattered that dream.
 
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The Liturgist

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The idea that only a chosen 'ordained' few can validly break bread in remembrance of Jesus cements the concept of a seperate priesthood within the body and establishes the clergy-laity divide.

Forgive me, my post was talking about the current unity that exists between the four ancient churches. It does not extend to encompass my support for unity between traditional Anglicans like yourself and your son and the Maori community in New Zealand; it also should not be interpreted as an endorsement of clericalism or over-generalized. That said I would note that the Anglicans have themselves always said that the Eucharist is one of those tasks for Presbyters within the context of the Anglican church, which is why Ante-Communion exists, and why Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer are different in the absence of a presbyter.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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According to what I've read:

Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Anglican church are: Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption of Mary, Queen of Heaven.

Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Lutheran church are: Mary as Intercessor, Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Queen of Heaven.

I think most Protestants will accept Mary Mother of God, once they fully understand what's meant by that. Probably the only real obstacle there is the wording. I think most wouldn't balk at Mary Mother of God the Son and similar. I think the problem is when most hear and see "God" they either picture God the Father or the Godhead, even though they totally believe that Jesus is God.
The Catholic Church does not tailor dogma to Protestant discomfort. The four Marian dogmas—Mary as Mother of God (Theotokos), her Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption—are not optional theological musings but divinely revealed truths, solemnly defined by the Magisterium and binding on all the faithful. The Council of Ephesus (431 AD) declared Mary as Theotokos to safeguard the full divinity of Christ: she bore not a mere man, but God incarnate (cf. Luke 1:43). Her Perpetual Virginity was affirmed at the Lateran Synod (649 AD), and her Immaculate Conception was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus (1854), declaring she was preserved from original sin from the moment of conception. Her bodily Assumption was defined by Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), affirming that she was taken body and soul into heavenly glory. These are not up for ecumenical negotiation.

The Protestant rejection of these dogmas stems not from biblical fidelity but from ecclesial rupture. The Anglican and Lutheran refusals to affirm Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, and Assumption reflect their rejection of the Church’s teaching authority, not a superior grasp of Scripture. The Catholic Church alone possesses the fullness of truth, entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and their successors (cf. Matthew 16:18–19; 1 Timothy 3:15). The title “Queen of Heaven” is not pagan flattery but a recognition of Mary’s unique participation in Christ’s kingship (cf. Revelation 12:1; Psalm 45:9). Her intercessory role flows from her maternal mediation, subordinate yet real, as affirmed in Lumen Gentium §62. Protestant discomfort with these truths is irrelevant to their validity.

As for the title “Mother of God,” it is not a semantic puzzle but a doctrinal necessity. To suggest “Mother of God the Son” as a compromise betrays a failure to grasp the hypostatic union: Jesus Christ is one divine Person with two natures, human and divine. Mary bore that one Person, not a nature. To deny her divine maternity is to fracture Christology. The Protestant impulse to reinterpret “God” as merely “God the Father” or “the Godhead” when hearing “Mother of God” reveals a theological deficiency, not a linguistic one. The Catholic Church does not dilute dogma to accommodate error. She proclaims truth, whether welcome or not.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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These verses refer to the True Israel among the Jews driven into exile until 1948 - we are in a late hour. The True Vine - Children of Abraham - not Mary.
1948? The year that the UN "created" the state of Israel? "driven into exile"? There's something very askew in your language.
 
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Carl Emerson

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1948? The year that the UN "created" the state of Israel? "driven into exile"? There's something very askew in your language.

Isaiah 66:8
“Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.

Sorry my language jars with your personal theology.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Forgive me, my post was talking about the current unity that exists between the four ancient churches. It does not extend to encompass my support for unity between traditional Anglicans like yourself and your son and the Maori community in New Zealand; it also should not be interpreted as an endorsement of clericalism or over-generalized. That said I would note that the Anglicans have themselves always said that the Eucharist is one of those tasks for Presbyters within the context of the Anglican church, which is why Ante-Communion exists, and why Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer are different in the absence of a presbyter.

Yes understand - however I was referring to the last sentence...

Quote. "What all these churches have in common, in addition to priests who can consecrate the Eucharist, is a profound devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary."

While I am personally called to serve in an Anglican church, I don't agree with all it's theological positions. Yet I serve with enthusiasm.

Personally I think paid clergy given higher priestly status does not accord with the teachings of Jesus and this is why so many struggle to foster a family community among the congregates.

Respecting servants that serve is important, however - there should be no hierarchical positions to fill like importing a CEO to run the show. However this style of governance is deeply intrenched and we just have to grin and bear it. Thankfully some who take these roles exercise genuine 'father' ministry but this is often not the case.

The older I get the more feel inclined to call a spade a spade in these remaining years.

Will He return to a 'perfect' church ? I don't think so.

Not as long as humans like myself are imperfect - yet He remains faithful and somehow the work and purpose of God prevails.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Isaiah 66:8
“Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
Nice verse but entirely unrelated to 1948.
Sorry my language jars with your personal theology.
It jars with the truth - it is nonsense as far as fulfilled prophecy goes.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Nice verse but entirely unrelated to 1948.

It jars with the truth - it is nonsense as far as fulfilled prophecy goes.

Of course - I would not have expected anything different.
 
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ozso

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You’ve read wrong. Martin Luther and the founders of the Anglican church all affirmed the Perpetual Virginity of the Theotokos. This doctrine was also affirmed by John Wesley, and even by John Calvin. Also, all of the above (reluctantly, in the case of Calvin, who was accused of Nestorianism by the Lutherans, who he in turn accused of Monophysitism, which is actually extinct as a heresy, but the Lutherans are in good company being falsely accused of Monophysitism, for indeed Martin Luther realized from the example of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, at the time part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, an Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction, that communion with Rome was something that had to be maintained at all costs for ecclesiastical legitimacy.

Indeed, Martin Luther prayed the Hail Mary frequently as part of his prayer rule. Now, it is true that the version he prayed omitted the intercessory petition; Martin Luther disagreed with the idea of asking saints for intercessory prayer; this is one of only a few points of difference between him and confessional Lutherans such as my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @ViaCrucis and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglo-Catholics and Roman Catholics*. However, to be fair, Martin Luther thought he was praying an older Eastern Orthodox version of the Ave Maria used by the Eastern Orthodox which lacked an intercessory petition, and this belief remains common among Lutherans. What he was actually praying a Marian hymn called a Theotokion from Orthros (Matins), the primary variable portion of the Orthodox Divine Office, which often closely resembles the Hail Mary, albeit not necessarily with an intercession, but rather with a glorification. The Stavrotheotokia, which are hymns lauding the Blessed Virgin Mary at the foot of the Cross during the passion of her Son, Christ our God, are some of the most beautiful and powerful hymns in use in the Christian church, and also, like the rest of the Theotokia, very ancient - most of the hymns from this part of the Byzantine Rite liturgy were composed by St. John of Damascus or the monks at Studion, some being older and some being newer, but with an average age of around 1300 years.

With Anglicanism, there is a thing called Churchmanship, in that in order to provide for the unity of the Church of England, the Elizabethan Settlement allowed for Anglicans to co-exist in one church despite some leaning more in a Reformed Calvinist or Zwinglian “low church” orientation and the others in a more Lutheran/Catholic and indeed Orthodox**-influenced “high church” orientation. There are also broad church parishes, which aim to include both groups (the height of this movement was with the Latitudinarians of the 18th century, who can be seen as English counterparts to the Pietist movement that had such a disastrous impact on the Lutheran church; Pietism coupled with Rationalism, imposed by the Calvinist Prussians in order to minimize theological dissent between the Lutheran majority in their vast and newly formed Kingdom and Calvinist minority, brought to an end the period of Lutheran Orthodoxy, in which the Church of Sweden and the Church of Saxony produced the exquisite liturgical music of Dietrich Buxtehude and his protege Johann Sebastian Bach, respectively, with a focus on doctrinal purity and correct worship (Orthodoxy literally means “Right Glorification”, and the Slavonic translation, Pravoslavie, means “True Glorification”). At any rate, since the 19th century there have been more strata of Anglican churchmanship: Anglo-Catholics, who are the highest of high church Anglicans, Evangelicals, who are more low church than the traditional Low Church Anglicans, some of whom, in terms of their formality, look High Church to the uninitiated, Liberal Catholics, who consist partially of malcontented former Roman Catholics and would-be Catholics who have an issue with some of the moral teaching of the Catholic Church surrounding divorce and remarriage, homosexuality, and other issues (the rise of Liberal Catholicism has largely pushed traditional conservative Anglo Catholicism out of the Episcopal Church in many dioceses; the Episcopal Church has always been very high church, but since 1979, in the dioceses under the control of more liberal bishops, things became increasingly uncomfortable for traditional Anglo Catholics, and they left - some joining the initial wave of departures in 1979, being part of the Continuing Anglican movement which also includes my dearly beloved High Church friends including one on this forum, others joining the more recently formed ACNA, and still others being a member of dioceses which left the Episcopal Church, in the case of the Diocese of Fort Worth taking their property with them. Still other Anglo Catholic dioceses such as that of Baton Rouge, Louisiana continue to retain a conservative character; there is also a conservative high church Anglo Catholic parish in Detroit which is so traditional, I was convinced it was Continuing Anglican and was genuinely shocked to discover it was still a part of the Episcopal Church (Detroit is also home to the Mariner’s Church, an independent liturgically Anglican parish serving the merchant marine that sails the Great Lakes, along with similar churches in other major ports on the US and Canadian shore; there are also churches in the coastal cities of the US and Europe which cater to mariners of different nationalities, often related to the national church if one exists, including several in London, despite the fact that London’s traditional seaports have been redeveloped, with commerce moving further away from the city). The Episcopal Church unsuccessfully attempted to assert control over the Mariner’s Church. There are also Anglo-Papalists, who are members of the Anglican Communion who believe in Papal Supremacy; most of them have joined the Anglican Ordinariates but a few remain in the Church of England and other Anglican bodies, agitating for submission of the Archbishop of Canterbury or their provincial archbishop or metropolitan to Ultramontanist authority.

* In the case of Lutheranism, it should be recognized that in general Martin Luther was trying to restore Patristic standards. The issues where his views, likely unbeknownst to him and to the shock of second generation Lutheran theologians who were finally able to dialogue with Patriarch Jeremias II of Constantinople, that have been divisive, include the idea of the episcopate as optional, the various solas, monergism, the rejection of intercessory prayer of the saints, and in terms of the liturgy, Martin Luther took a dim view of the Roman sacrament of Extreme Unction, but my understanding is that the pan-Orthodox liturgy of the anointing of the sick and those fasting with oil, which lacks the components of the Roman liturgy administered only to the dying that made Luther regard it as a curse, is not offensive to Lutherans (this liturgy is remarkable in that it is celebrated by Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox with very few variations; I have not examined the Armenian or Ethiopian forms of it but expect the Ethiopian would follow either the Coptic or Syriac pattern, as the Ethiopic liturgy was adopted from an older Jewish liturgy by the Seven Syrian Sages, a group of Syriac speaking liturgists from Antioch, in the fourth century, who were able to speak the Semitic Ge’ez language with greater ease than the mostly Greek and partially Coptic speaking Alexandrian clergy of the time; there are also naturally Coptic influences on the Ethiopian liturgy. In each case this liturgy consists of seven (or in the case of the Syriac Orthodox and Indian Orthodox use, five) sets of prayers and Scripture readings, in which seven Psalms, Epistles and Gospels are read and seven prayers for the sick are made, and, typically, seven oil lamps or wicks into a bowl of oil being consecrated are lit (this is always done in the Coptic and Syriac rite but I’m not sure if the Eastern Orthodox always do this). The person is then anointed with the oil, either on the forehead, or on multiple parts of the body.

** There is a long history of Eastern Orthodox influence on Anglicanism, going back to the Book of Common Prayer which includes among the prayers said at the end of at Morning Prayer and Evensong A Prayer of St. Chrysostom which is in fact the Prayer of the Second Antiphon from the Eastern Orthodox syanaxis or liturgy of the catechumens (liturgy of the Word in Roman Catholic and modern Protestant parlance), most commonly used with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but also used with the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (except in its vesperal form) and a few others, including the Armenian Orthodox liturgy, which implemented the same synaxis more or less during a period of Byzantine influence (there was also a period of Latin influence, so the Armenian liturgy has been, since the 15th century, a blend of Byzantine, Latin, Syro / Antiochene and indigenous Armenian influence as well as heavily influence from the Church of Jerusalem, whose liturgies influenced all of the other ancient churches). This has ohly intensified since then: for example, the Scottish and non-Juring English Episcopalians added the Epiclesis from the Orthodox DIvine Liturgy of St. James to the Anglican Communion Service (from which it made it into the traditional American Anglican liturgy) and indeed the Episcopal Church even came close to union with the Russian Orthodox Church, until the Bolshevik Revolution shattered that dream.
I'll look into what the Anglican church and Lutheran church believe/teach these days from the source. I didn't really have time for that earlier.
 
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ozso

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The Catholic Church does not tailor dogma to Protestant discomfort. The four Marian dogmas—Mary as Mother of God (Theotokos), her Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption—are not optional theological musings but divinely revealed truths, solemnly defined by the Magisterium and binding on all the faithful. The Council of Ephesus (431 AD) declared Mary as Theotokos to safeguard the full divinity of Christ: she bore not a mere man, but God incarnate (cf. Luke 1:43). Her Perpetual Virginity was affirmed at the Lateran Synod (649 AD), and her Immaculate Conception was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus (1854), declaring she was preserved from original sin from the moment of conception. Her bodily Assumption was defined by Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), affirming that she was taken body and soul into heavenly glory. These are not up for ecumenical negotiation.

The Protestant rejection of these dogmas stems not from biblical fidelity but from ecclesial rupture.
Scriptural exegesis and hermeneutics is a major factor.
The Anglican and Lutheran refusals to affirm Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, and Assumption reflect their rejection of the Church’s teaching authority,
There's definitely a rejection of the RCC's declaration of sole authority.
not a superior grasp of Scripture. The Catholic Church alone possesses the fullness of truth, entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and their successors (cf. Matthew 16:18–19; 1 Timothy 3:15). The title “Queen of Heaven” is not pagan flattery but a recognition of Mary’s unique participation in Christ’s kingship (cf. Revelation 12:1; Psalm 45:9). Her intercessory role flows from her maternal mediation, subordinate yet real, as affirmed in Lumen Gentium §62. Protestant discomfort with these truths is irrelevant to their validity.

As for the title “Mother of God,” it is not a semantic puzzle but a doctrinal necessity. To suggest “Mother of God the Son” as a compromise betrays a failure to grasp the hypostatic union: Jesus Christ is one divine Person with two natures, human and divine. Mary bore that one Person, not a nature. To deny her divine maternity is to fracture Christology. The Protestant impulse to reinterpret “God” as merely “God the Father” or “the Godhead” when hearing “Mother of God” reveals a theological deficiency, not a linguistic one. The Catholic Church does not dilute dogma to accommodate error. She proclaims truth, whether welcome or not.
Thanks for the info.
 
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ozso

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Forgive me, my post was talking about the current unity that exists between the four ancient churches. It does not extend to encompass my support for unity between traditional Anglicans like yourself and your son and the Maori community in New Zealand; it also should not be interpreted as an endorsement of clericalism or over-generalized. That said I would note that the Anglicans have themselves always said that the Eucharist is one of those tasks for Presbyters within the context of the Anglican church, which is why Ante-Communion exists, and why Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer are different in the absence of a presbyter.
The serious problem though in that regarding unity is the gatekeeping. That only Christians of that particulier sect are allowed to partake. Despite the form of unity you describe between the four ancient churches, the Roman Catholic Church forbids anyone who's not a Roman Catholic to partake in their Eucharist and the same goes for the Orthodox Church regarding Roman Catholics or any other non-Orthodox Christian from partaking in their Eucharist.

It's highly doubtful that was the design that Christ had in mind. More likely His design was for all Christians to partake in the Eucharist. Rather than all the gatekeeping, and the declaration from different sects that only the Eucharist they provide is valid. It's highly doubtful Christ acknowledges any of all those individual "us only" claims.
 
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caffeinated.hermit

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I think it's more like Catholics realize they can't legitimately say that other Christians aren't saved or are maybe barely saved or whatever, contrary to what Jesus and His Apostles said about the conditions of salvation.

And what's really happening is they are actually narrowing the conditions of salvation more to what Jesus and His Apostles said.
And this is what I struggle to accept. There is, I think, a quote from Metropolitan Kallistos Ware that says :

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church. Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.


From Scripture, it seems we are all asked to trust in Christ, follow Him, keep His words, love others, and empty ourselves to gradually become more like Him. This is something a Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic Christian can all do. And something we might all not do in spite of our technically sound theology, church membership, active church life, or faith.

I agree that the criteria for salvation is not as technical as we may imagine it to be.
 
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Valletta

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That only Christians of that particulier sect are allowed to partake. Despite the form of unity you describe between the four ancient churches, the Roman Catholic Church forbids anyone who's not a Roman Catholic to partake in their Eucharist and the same goes for the Orthodox Church regarding Roman Catholics or any other non-Orthodox Christian from partaking in their Eucharist.

It's highly doubtful that was the design that Christ had in mind. More likely His design was for all Christians to partake in the Eucharist. Rather than all the gatekeeping, and the declaration from different sects that only the Eucharist they provide is valid. It's highly doubtful Christ acknowledges any of all those individual "us only" claims.

Study the Bible!

1 Cor 11: 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

Most who identify as Catholic are not even allowed to receive the Holy Eucharist at this particular time. The Catholic Church preserves the holiness of what takes place and strives to see the words above are obeyed. Jesus, His flesh and blood, is our "New Covenant" or "New Testament." That's why the new books of the Bible eventually became known as "books of the New Testament." The Catechism of the Catholic Church states just how important the "Real Presence" of Jesus is to our faith:


I. The Eucharist - Source and Summit of Ecclesial Life​

1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."134 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."135
1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."136
1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.137
1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking."138
 
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PloverWing

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The Protestant rejection of these dogmas stems not from biblical fidelity but from ecclesial rupture. The Anglican and Lutheran refusals to affirm Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, and Assumption reflect their rejection of the Church’s teaching authority, not a superior grasp of Scripture.

This is largely correct. The largest difference -- perhaps an insurmountable difference? -- between Catholic and Anglican theology is their views of the teaching authority of the Catholic church. From the Catholic point of view, the teaching office of the Catholic church, as you said, "possesses the fullness of truth"; its teachings can be relied upon to be accurate. From the Anglican point of view, the teaching office of the Catholic church contains wisdom and should be respected, but it is no guarantor of truth; it is as fallible as any other group of learned human theologians.

Regarding the Marian doctrines, then, Anglicans are free to evaluate the arguments made by theologians and to accept or reject those arguments as they see fit. But the doctrines themselves are secondary, when we're thinking of church unity. The primary point of disagreement is the status of the Catholic church's teaching office itself. I don't actually know if this disagreement can be mended; it really is quite fundamental, on both sides.
 
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ozso

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Study the Bible!

1 Cor 11: 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

Most who identify as Catholic are not even allowed to receive the Holy Eucharist at this particular time. The Catholic Church preserves the holiness of what takes place and strives to see the words above are obeyed. Jesus, His flesh and blood, is our "New Covenant" or "New Testament." That's why the new books of the Bible eventually became known as "books of the New Testament." The Catechism of the Catholic Church states just how important the "Real Presence" of Jesus is to our faith:


I. The Eucharist - Source and Summit of Ecclesial Life​

1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."134 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."135
1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."136
1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.137
1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking."138
1 Corinthians 11:17-34 does not endorse Christian churches excluding each other. Nor does it endorse each church declaring that only the Eucharist they serve is valid. As if the body of Christ was bound to their particular individual rules.
 
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Valletta

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1 Corinthians 11:17-34 does not endorse Christian churches excluding each other. Nor does it endorse each church declaring that only the Eucharist they serve is valid. As if the body of Christ was bound to their particular individual rules.
Did you get a wrong number or what? Who told you that the Orthodox and Catholics each declare that only the Eucharist they serve is valid?
 
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ozso

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And this is what I struggle to accept. There is, I think, a quote from Metropolitan Kallistos Ware that says :

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church. Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.

From Scripture, it seems we are all asked to trust in Christ, follow Him, keep His words, love others, and empty ourselves to gradually become more like Him. This is something a Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic Christian can all do. And something we might all not do in spite of our technically sound theology, church membership, active church life, or faith.

I agree that the criteria for salvation is not as technical as we may imagine it to be.
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is one of my favorite teachers. It's likely that Christ sees Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic collectively as His visible Church. And it's doubtful that He approves of them excluding one another. It's unlikely that the Kingdom of Heaven will consist of separate gated sections for Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic. It's doubtful that when Christ said "My house has many mansions" He meant a sperate mansion for Protestants, a sperate mansion for Orthodox, and a sperate mansion for Catholics. We should all stop and realize that none of that segregation is going to exist within the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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ozso

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Did you get a wrong number or what? Who told you that the Orthodox and Catholics each declare that only the Eucharist they serve is valid?
Roman Catholics. Even Catholics here on CF have told me that any communion I partake of outside the Roman Catholic church is not valid.

Also why do the RCC and EOC bar each other from taking each other's communion if they consider both to be equally valid?
 
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