• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A conversation about unity.

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,554
5,982
Minnesota
✟334,526.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Roman Catholics. Even Catholics here on CF have told me that any communion I partake of outside the Roman Catholic church is not valid.

Also why do the RCC and EOC bar each other from taking each other's communion if they consider both to be equally valid?
A priest must be ordained through an unbroken line of bishops all the way back to the Apostles in order to legitimately consecrate the host. Likewise for the sacrament of confession. It is a matter of respecting the rules (Catholics, for example, must only fast one hour before communion whereas for Orthodox it is longer) and customs of others, so under normal circumstances it would not be done. If I as a Catholic was dying and there was no Catholic priest available I could go to an Orthodox priest for confession. But again normally it is not permitted.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,468
15,424
PNW
✟990,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A priest must be ordained through an unbroken line of bishops all the way back to the Apostles in order to legitimately consecrate the host. Likewise for the sacrament of confession. It is a matter of respecting the rules (Catholics, for example, must only fast one hour before communion whereas for Orthodox it is longer) and customs of others, so under normal circumstances it would not be done. If I as a Catholic was dying and there was no Catholic priest available I could go to an Orthodox priest for confession. But again normally it is not permitted.
Those are man-made traditions. It's similar to those who added their traditions onto the law which Jesus denounced. Jesus, Paul and John all denounced adding onto what had been put unto place.

As for Apostolic succession, the criteria set forth by the Apostles when choosing someone to succeed Judas was, having been with Jesus from His baptism until His Ascension and being a witness to His resurrection. Polycarp who was appointed by the Apostle John, did not call himself an Apostle. As far as I know no one who was appointed by an Apostle to lead the Church called themselves an Apostle. Nor were any of them called an Apostle by one of the Apostles.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,554
5,982
Minnesota
✟334,526.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Those are man-made traditions. It's similar to those who added their traditions onto the law which Jesus denounced. Jesus, Paul and John all denounced adding onto what had been put unto place.
Jesus fasted, I would not be so quick to denounce fasting nor to denigrate the practices or disciplines of other Christians. Perhaps you could make an extra effort to avoid doing so.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,468
15,424
PNW
✟990,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Jesus fasted, I would not be so quick to denounce fasting nor to denigrate the practices or disciplines of other Christians. Perhaps you could make an extra effort to avoid doing so.
Jesus and the Apostles did not say to fast before taking communion.

As a matter of fact the first communion took place at the last supper, while they were eating.

There's nothing wrong with fasting. But a rule about fasting before taking communion is a man-made rule.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,595
2,432
Perth
✟205,316.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Roman Catholics. Even Catholics here on CF have told me that any communion I partake of outside the Roman Catholic church is not valid.
If one's churh does not believe in the real presence then there is no communion.
Also why do the RCC and EOC bar each other from taking each other's communion if they consider both to be equally valid?
An Orthodox Christian may receive Holy Communion in a Catholic church under specific, exceptional circumstances. According to Canon 844 §3 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to members of Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church—such as the Orthodox—provided they seek the sacraments of their own accord and are properly disposed. This provision reflects the Catholic Church’s recognition of the valid sacraments and apostolic succession within the Orthodox tradition. However, it is not a general permission; it applies only when there is necessity or genuine spiritual benefit, and the Orthodox communicant must freely request the sacrament without coercion or disregard for their own ecclesial discipline.

Nonetheless, the Orthodox Church generally prohibits its faithful from receiving Communion outside its own canonical boundaries. As articulated by the Orthodox Church in America, Eucharistic sharing is seen not merely as a gesture of hospitality but as a visible sign of full ecclesial unity. Thus, even if a Catholic priest is willing to offer Communion, an Orthodox Christian is ordinarily bound by their own Church’s discipline not to receive it. The Catholic Church respects this restriction and does not encourage Orthodox Christians to contravene their own ecclesial norms. In practice, therefore, while Catholic law permits such reception under defined conditions, Orthodox discipline typically renders it impermissible. This tension underscores the theological significance of Eucharistic communion as both a sign and fruit of full ecclesial unity.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,063
10,051
NW England
✟1,301,783.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If one's churh does not believe in the real presence then there is no communion.
Where did Jesus say that?

Before he died, Jesus shared a final Passover meal with his friends. Friends who were going to deny, betray and desert him - people who didn't understand that he had to die and weren't expecting the resurrection.
Even so, he shared a meal with them, broke bread and said "do this in memory of me".

How did that become, "you can only do this if an ordained minister in the Apostolic succession is leading, and all recipients must believe certain things, or it's not valid"?
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,468
15,424
PNW
✟990,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If one's churh does not believe in the real presence then there is no communion.

An Orthodox Christian may receive Holy Communion in a Catholic church under specific, exceptional circumstances. According to Canon 844 §3 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to members of Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church—such as the Orthodox—provided they seek the sacraments of their own accord and are properly disposed. This provision reflects the Catholic Church’s recognition of the valid sacraments and apostolic succession within the Orthodox tradition. However, it is not a general permission; it applies only when there is necessity or genuine spiritual benefit, and the Orthodox communicant must freely request the sacrament without coercion or disregard for their own ecclesial discipline.

Nonetheless, the Orthodox Church generally prohibits its faithful from receiving Communion outside its own canonical boundaries. As articulated by the Orthodox Church in America, Eucharistic sharing is seen not merely as a gesture of hospitality but as a visible sign of full ecclesial unity. Thus, even if a Catholic priest is willing to offer Communion, an Orthodox Christian is ordinarily bound by their own Church’s discipline not to receive it. The Catholic Church respects this restriction and does not encourage Orthodox Christians to contravene their own ecclesial norms. In practice, therefore, while Catholic law permits such reception under defined conditions, Orthodox discipline typically renders it impermissible. This tension underscores the theological significance of Eucharistic communion as both a sign and fruit of full ecclesial unity.
Man-made complication. How many extra man-made rules are there? 1000? 10,000? 1,000,000?
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
31,028
5,855
✟1,016,031.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The serious problem though in that regarding unity is the gatekeeping. That only Christians of that particulier sect are allowed to partake. Despite the form of unity you describe between the four ancient churches, the Roman Catholic Church forbids anyone who's not a Roman Catholic to partake in their Eucharist and the same goes for the Orthodox Church regarding Roman Catholics or any other non-Orthodox Christian from partaking in their Eucharist.

It's highly doubtful that was the design that Christ had in mind. More likely His design was for all Christians to partake in the Eucharist. Rather than all the gatekeeping, and the declaration from different sects that only the Eucharist they provide is valid. It's highly doubtful Christ acknowledges any of all those individual "us only" claims.
Except that our Lord and the the Apostles caution us that eating and drinking His body and blood un an unworthy manner can be both spiritually and physically harmful. So this is why these Churches and the Confessional Lutherans attach so much importance to "gatekeeping" as you call it. We can not see inside the hearts of those who approach our altars, but we at least know those who have been instructed, and should have at least a basic understanding.

If you want to commune with us, we provide "free" instruction. If you find yourself in agreement with our teachings regarding this, and the other doctrines of the Church, you may be confirmed and join us in the fullness of the Bibles teaching. If you find you do not or can not agree with us, then, why would you want to commune with us?
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
31,028
5,855
✟1,016,031.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Where did Jesus say that?

Before he died, Jesus shared a final Passover meal with his friends. Friends who were going to deny, betray and desert him - people who didn't understand that he had to die and weren't expecting the resurrection.
Even so, he shared a meal with them, broke bread and said "do this in memory of me".

How did that become, "you can only do this if an ordained minister in the Apostolic succession is leading, and all recipients must believe certain things, or it's not valid"?
As Scripture says, they failed to discern the body and blood of Christ, therefore, there is no communion. It is that simple.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,595
2,432
Perth
✟205,316.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Where did Jesus say that?
That would be in all four of the last supper narratives.
Before he died, Jesus shared a final Passover meal with his friends. Friends who were going to deny, betray and desert him - people who didn't understand that he had to die and weren't expecting the resurrection.
Even so, he shared a meal with them, broke bread and said "do this in memory of me".
He said this is my body
This is my blood of the new covenant

How did that become, "you can only do this if an ordained minister in the Apostolic succession is leading, and all recipients must believe certain things, or it's not valid"?
The ones he instructed to "do this in memory of me" were ordained by himself.
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
31,028
5,855
✟1,016,031.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Of course - I would not have expected anything different.
Zionist Christians need to wake up and see what Israel is doing to the Christians in Palestine; they have earlier this week, told them to leave. There is no place for Christians in Israel's Zion, just as there is no place for those who do not accept Christ in God's "New Jerusalem". Sorry if this is offensive, but someone had to say it.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,468
15,424
PNW
✟990,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Except that our Lord and the the Apostles caution us that eating and drinking His body and blood un an unworthy manner can be both spiritually and physically harmful. So this is why these Churches and the Confessional Lutherans attach so much importance to "gatekeeping" as you call it. We can not see inside the hearts of those who approach our altars, but we at least know those who have been instructed, and should have at least a basic understanding.

If you want to commune with us, we provide "free" instruction. If you find yourself in agreement with our teachings regarding this, and the other doctrines of the Church, you may be confirmed and join us in the fullness of the Bibles teaching. If you find you do not or can not agree with us, then, why would you want to commune with us?
What if a Lutheran pastor from a different Lutheran denomonation wanted to take communion at your church?

Also does your church consider communion in other Lutheran denominations valid communion?

And what about say communion taken in Southern Baptist churches?
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,595
2,432
Perth
✟205,316.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,468
15,424
PNW
✟990,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not the most clever "question" eh?

Top quality insult there, mate. About what one expects ...
Actually in spite of the derogatory term used it's a good question. Do you think your posts bring Protestants closer to considering becoming Catholic?
 
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,607
1,389
TULSA
✟118,968.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
So after 25 pages is anyone thinking of changing their position and adopting popery?
How many pages is anyone's Bible ? Check any/all/every teaching to verify it is or is not in line with all Scripture BEFORE ACCEPTING anything or anyone or any doctrine or any teaching. Otherwise error gets in too easy, even willingly , and not for good, not from God.
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
31,028
5,855
✟1,016,031.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
What if a Lutheran pastor from a different Lutheran denomonation wanted to take communion at your church?

Also does your church consider communion in other Lutheran denominations valid communion?

And what about say communion taken in Southern Baptist churches?
Those from other Synods who's doctrine aligns, not an issue; those from Synods who are not in fellowship and who reject the Biblical Eucharistic Theology as explained in the unaltered 1580 edition of "The Book of Concord" would not, but in rejecting the BOC, would make them not really Lutheran by our definition.

Southern Baptists reject the real presence and also have believers (adult) baptism; there is no unity; to think that there is, is false ecuminism.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
31,028
5,855
✟1,016,031.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Zionist Christians need to wake up and see what Israel is doing to the Christians in Palestine; they have earlier this week, told them to leave. There is no place for Christians in Israel's Zion, just as there is no place for those who do not accept Christ in God's "New Jerusalem". Sorry if this is offensive, but someone had to say it.
1756898115262.png
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,468
15,424
PNW
✟990,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Those from other Synods who's doctrine aligns, not an issue; those from Synods who are not in fellowship and who reject the Biblical Eucharistic Theology as explained in the unaltered 1580 edition of "The Book of Concord" would not, but in rejecting the BOC, would make them not really Lutheran by our definition.
And is what you described above considered the only valid communion?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0