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How Christ became superfluous

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IJW

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Oblio said:
I beleive the scripture that you posted has more to do with personal decisions after salvation, not salvation in and of its own. (ie doctrine theology lifestyle...)

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (NIV)

To imply that there is an alternate route to salvation is to disregaurd Calvary. If there was another way to save us Christ would not have been crucified. I think that's pretty clear if you consider the garden of gethsemane.
God did establish his covenant with Israel, and I beleive He still honors that covenant, but that covenant was not about the removal of sin. Gods love is unconditional, but their is a condition for salvation, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as the crucified and reserected son of God, and your only savior.
 
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CaDan

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Theophorus said:
Maybe after lent

O! So sorry! I have some frozen tofu, too. You can hardly taste the tofu!

The Orthodox church down the street from me is having its semi-annual pie sale this week. It must be a serious test to sit in a room full of cheesecake during Great Lent selling it to the Romans! :D
 
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QuantaCura

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Redwolf said:
That is not what the treatise states.

Thanks Pope Redwolf for interpreting it for me. Please show me where it says that all Muslims are "saved." Maybe if you read that "treatise" in the context of all of Catholic belief you would have the interpretation I have.

We don't even use that protestant terminilogy where we walk around declaring we will definitely go to Heaven and pointing out who will definitely not go to Heaven. We let God do the judging. We put our faith in Christ. Unless you are a limited atonement guy, then you, like us, believe the plan of salvation includes all men. That's why Jesus came.

Only God will judge who has rejected the graces they have been given. You and I cannot judge that.
 
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QuantaCura

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IJW said:
I beleive the scripture that you posted has more to do with personal decisions not salvation.

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (NIV)

To imply that there is an alternate route to salvation is to disregaurd Calvary. If there was another way to save us Christ would not have been crucified. I think that's pretty clear if you consider the garden of gethsemane.
God did establish his covenant with Israel, and I beleive He still honors that covenant, but that covenant was not about the removal of sin. Gods love is unconditional, but their is a condition for salvation, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as the crucified and reserected son of God, and your only savior.

No one is implying an alternative route. No one will go to Heaven unless Jesus saves him. I think what many folks on this thread are forgetting is that Jesus is the one who saves, we do not save ourselves nor do we get to tell Him who to save and who not to--it is not by our own merit.

If a Muslim person dies in front of you, can you declare that person is definitely in Hell? How does this jive with Jesus telling us not to condemn lest we be condemned?
 
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JCrawf

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QuantaCura said:
We don't even use that protestant terminilogy where we walk around declaring we will definitely go to Heaven and pointing out who will definitely not go to Heaven. We let God do the judging. We put our faith in Christ. Unless you are a limited atonement guy, then you, like us, believe the plan of salvation includes all men. That's why Jesus came.

Only God will judge who has rejected the graces they have been given. You and I cannot judge that.

:amen:

Couldn't have said it better.

Pax Tecum,

John
 
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CaDan said:
O! So sorry! I have some frozen tofu, too. You can hardly taste the tofu!

The Orthodox church down the street from me is having its semi-annual pie sale this week. It must be a serious test to sit in a room full of cheesecake during Great Lent selling it to the Romans! :D

Our parish was begging for volunteers last Sunday. I just sat there thinking , "are they out of their minds"? Then it occured to me, of course they are, they haven't had ice cream in nearly 40 days.
 
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QuantaCura

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Theophorus said:
Our parish was begging for volunteers last Sunday. I just sat there thinking , "are they out of their minds"? Then it occured to me, of course they are, they haven't had ice cream in nearly 40 days.

I gave it up for Lent myself. Never in my life have I had so many people tempting me with it. I hope I get so many offers when Lent is over! :D
 
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JCrawf

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Redwolf said:
According to the Catholic catechism, Muslims and Jews are saved despite their rejection of Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR, our ONLY means to salvation.

Paragraph 841:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]


At the end of the paragraph, there is a footnote. If you followed it, you would have seen the references for Lumen Gentium (LG) 16 and Nostra Aetate (NA) 3. For now, let's focus on LG 16, the Dogmatic Constitution On the Church, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on Nov. 21, 1964:
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.​
The first footnote (18), refers to St. Thomas Aquinas', Summa Theoliga, Ch III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1, which is as follows:

Question 8 is in regards to the section titled Of The Grace Of Christ, As He Is The Head Of The Church. a. 3 concerns the subordinate question of St. Thomas concerning Whether He is the Head of all men?. Ad. 1 notes the first contrary notion to the first objection, which is thus stated:

Objection 1: It would seem that Christ is not the Head of all men. For the head has no relation except to the members of its body. Now the unbaptized are nowise members of the Church which is the body of Christ, as it is written (Eph. 1:23). Therefore Christ is not the Head of all men.

And the contrary statement:

On the contrary, It is written (1 Tim. 4:10): "Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful," and (1 Jn. 2:2): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Now to save men and to be a propitiation for their sins belongs to Christ as Head. Therefore Christ is the Head of all men. (bold, underlined, and in red my emphasis)

Even more interesting is the Saint's reply to objection 1:

Reply to Objection 1: Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things---first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.

But here, we see that the Saint's views (and thus the reference of the Pope, and further into that of the Catechism) is grounded in both the Scriptures and principally in the power of Christ, "which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race."

(Continued...)
 
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Jebediah

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Redwolf said:
The RCC does well enough all by herself.
Don't you think?

No, I don't. And if you actually understood Catholic teachings rather than simply looking for stuff to attack (Because of course, Christ loves slandering people on web forums :doh: ) you wouldn't either. Bashing people is wrong, period.
 
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IJW

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QuantaCura said:
No one is implying an alternative route. No one will go to Heaven unless Jesus saves him. I think what many folks on this thread are forgetting is that Jesus is the one who saves, we do not save ourselves nor do we get to tell Him who to save and who not to--it is not by our own merit.

If a Muslim person dies in front of you, can you declare that person is definitely in Hell? How does this jive with Jesus telling us not to condemn lest we be condemned?
These are not my standards they are Gods. It is impossibal for me to see what is in the heart of any man. But when Christ was explaining his standards he was pretty clear that anyone who rejected him would in turn be rejected. God makes the route to salvation pretty clear in his word and He is pretty clear about what is required. Again these are HIS standards I make refernce to not mine.
 
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JCrawf

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The next reference from LG:
In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125)​
Here, Pope Paul VI goes for a straight reference to the Scriptures, that is to Rom. 9:4-5, which states:
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.​
Simply put, we must remember that it was through the Jews that the testament and promis was first given, and from whom we recieved our Lord Christ Jesus, as St. Paul also affirms.

Next reference from LG:

On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)


Again, a straight Biblical reference, this time to Rom. 11:28-29, which is thus quoted:
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​
Still pretty straight foreward as to what Pope Paul VI is trying to say. That is, the promise of Christ first came to the Jews, and they are still considered in the election of God as beloved for the sake of their ancestors. Pope Paul VI thusly does not stray away from what seems to be quite becoming of a Pauline philosophy in his statements - even with his reference to St. Thomas Aquinas, which happened to have references to two of St. Paul's writngs.

Next reference from LG:

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128)

Here we have two straight Scripture references in a row, first from Acts 17:24-28, and then next from 1 Tim. 2:3-4.


The first reference, Acts 17:24-28, as follows:
The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'"​
Seems like an interesting passage for a Pope to make, that is, if one considers this an argument for not having church buildings. Yet, true the his Pauline identity, the point here is not anti-church, but rather the closeness of God to His creation. For as St. Paul said, "though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'" (vv. 27b-28). Whose poets is St. Paul refering to? His audience here is not the Jews, but the gentiles in front of the Areopagus in Athens.


The second reference, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, as follows:
This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Here, the reference of Pope Paul VI to St. Paul is quite clear, that God, our Lord and saviour "desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Is there any exclusion to this desire, this will of God? In short, no, it appears there is not. For this will of God that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of truth is at the heart of God's revelation and call to all humanity, gentile or Jew.

(Continued...)
 
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jckstraw72

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To imply that there is an alternate route to salvation is to disregaurd Calvary.

and who exactly implied an alternate route. could you please tell me what teh alternate route is? did they actually lay out a route other than Christ, or are you reading in to it cause your Protestantism demands that you attack all things Catholic?
 
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IJW

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jckstraw72 said:
and who exactly implied an alternate route. could you please tell me what teh alternate route is? did they actually lay out a route other than Christ, or are you reading in to it cause your Protestantism demands that you attack all things Catholic?
I believe that the kingdom of heavan is made up of Catholics and protestants alike. Salvation is not based on religious labels it comes through faith in Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if you have been treated badly by people in the past because you are Catholic, but thats not what I'm getting at. I don't agree with the part that says that if you are a good person you will be saved.
 
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TruthMiner

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IJW said:
I believe that the kingdom of heavan is made up of Catholics and protestants alike. Salvation is not based on religious labels it comes through faith in Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if you have been treated badly by people in the past because you are Catholic, but thats not what I'm getting at. I don't agree with the part that says that if you are a good person you will be saved.

You might want to spend some time studying Romans 6-16 very, very carefully.
 
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jckstraw72

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Salvation is not based on religious labels it comes through faith in Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if you have been treated badly by people in the past because you are Catholic, but thats not what I'm getting at. I don't agree with the part that says that if you are a good person you will be saved.

1. im Orthodox
2. saying that someone who doesnt profess Chrsitianity can be saved doesnt mean its an alternate route than Christ. Without Christ's sacrifice no one would be saved. ANYONE who is saved will be saved through Christ. We'll let who is and who isnt saved up to His mercy.
 
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JCrawf

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Next reference from LG:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)

The reference is Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep, which I cannot find online, nor do I have the time and resources to find it offline. However, anyone who may have such, I welcome them to take up this reference and comment on what is said in it and what references are made in it.


Next reference from LG:
Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*)​
The reference is to Eusebius of Caesarea, Praeparatio Evangelica Book I, Ch.1, of which the following is an excerpt:
What then can be more blessed than this excellent and all-happy friendship with God? Is not He both the dispenser and provider to all men of life and light and truth and all things good? Does He not contain in Himself the cause of the being and the life of all things? To one then who has secured friendship with Him what more can be wanting? What can he lack, who has made the Creator of all true blessings his friend? Or who can be superior to him who claims in the place of a father and a guardian the great President and absolute Monarch of the universe?

Nay, it is not possible to mention anything in which he who draws near in disposition to God the absolute Monarch, and through his intelligent piety has been deemed worthy of His all-blessed friendship, can fail to be happy alike in soul and body and all outward things.

It is then this good and saving friendship of men with God that the Word of God sent down from above, like a ray of infinite light, from the God of all goodness proclaims as good tidings to all men; and urges them to come not from this or that place but from every part out of all nations to the God of the universe, and to hasten and accept the gift with all eagerness of soul, Greeks and Barbarians together, men, women, and children, both rich and poor, wise and simple, not deeming even slaves unworthy of His call.

For indeed their Father, having constituted them all of one essence and nature, rightly admitted them all to share in His one equal bounty, bestowing the knowledge of Himself and friendship with Him upon all who were willing to hearken, and who readily welcomed His grace.

This friendship with His Father Christ's word came to preach to the whole world: for, as the divine oracles teach,

'God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them,'[2 Cor. 5:19] and 'He came,' they say, 'and preached peace to them that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh.'[Eph. 2:17]

These things the sons of the Hebrews were long ago inspired to prophesy to the whole world, one crying,

'All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the LORD, and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Him: for the kingdom is the LORD'S, and He is the ruler over the nations' [Ps. 22:27-28]; and again, 'Tell it out among the heathen that the LORD is king, for He hath also stablished the world, which shall not be moved' [Ps. 96:10]; and another saith, 'The LORD will appear among them, and will utterly destroy all the gods of the nations of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place.' [Zeph. 2:11]

These promises, having been long ago laid up in divine oracles, have now shone forth upon our own age through the teaching of our Saviour Jesus Christ; so that the knowledge of God among all nations, which was both proclaimed of old and looked for by those who were not ignorant of these matters, is duly preached to us by the Word, who has lately come from heaven, and shows that the actual fulfilment corresponds with the voices of the men of old.

(continued...)
 
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