Hell

[ArmyMatt]

Yes. Our focal point always resides in the resurrection for us. Beyond that is looking into the mind of god. I dont believe many have that insight. Only the saint

I agree with what you said, I just don't follow what this has to do with what we are talking about. you are on point, I am still just confused.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for the welcome.


Well no not exactly. Let me ask you though. When we receive the holy light at the resurrection and sing the resurrection hymns. This very act is an icon of a future event. We all go home with our loved ones and celebrate. Why do we have to look any further into it? We are with our loved ones and everybody is alive.

Yes, everyone is alive.

Are you suggesting universalism in some sense then?

We have no such dogmas?

I know the Saints have spoken in various ways about the life of the age to come, but it is true that we shouldn't presume to definitively know more than we do.

I once mentioned an Orthodox podcast series to my priest that talked about "the afterlife" I believe it was titled. He asked me what in the world they could possibly talk about for hours, since we know so little? He was of course right, except that I didn't explain the podcast also talked about preparing for death, funeral services, prayers, and all sorts of things. But his reaction has always stayed with me. (He probably thinks I listened to something very questionable!)

 

[Toolbelt]

I agree with what you said, I just don't follow what this has to do with what we are talking about. you are on point, I am still just confused.

I can understand your bewilderment. The greek fathers when writing about a subject will look at it from different angles. Because of there philosophical backgrounds. They put the subject matter in front of them and dissect it in various different ways. Western Christianity tends to look at the cross and ansewers all its questions from a final point looking back. They build there theology using the cross . Orthodoxy on the other hand looks at the resurrection and builds there theology off of that principal. The two theories run parallel to a degree, but they really dont end up exactly in the same place.
I have seen some of your writings and can tell that a lot of what you say is comming from the cross.
In one of your posts you said that adam and eve's sin is what kept them out of the garden. I have read though that god had forgiven them. The consequence of the sin couldnt be taken back even through forgiveness. It wasnt moral but ontological reasons they were shut out.

 

[Toolbelt]

Yes, everyone is alive.

Are you suggesting universalism in some sense then?

We have no such dogmas?

I know the Saints have spoken in various ways about the life of the age to come, but it is true that we shouldn't presume to definitively know more than we do.

I once mentioned an Orthodox podcast series to my priest that talked about "the afterlife" I believe it was titled. He asked me what in the world they could possibly talk about for hours, since we know so little? He was of course right, except that I didn't explain the podcast also talked about preparing for death, funeral services, prayers, and all sorts of things. But his reaction has always stayed with me. (He probably thinks I listened to something very questionable!)

Christ made two things known for universalism. All are forgiven and all are resurrected. Here is the caveat though. One must willfully accept that grace and conform with the churches teachings.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can understand your bewilderment. The greek fathers when writing about a subject will look at it from different angles. Because of there philosophical backgrounds. They put the subject matter in front of them and dissect it in various different ways. Western Christianity tends to look at the cross and ansewers all its questions from a final point looking back. They build there theology using the cross . Orthodoxy on the other hand looks at the resurrection and builds there theology off of that principal. The two theories run parallel to a degree, but they really dont end up exactly in the same place.
I have seen some of your writings and can tell that a lot of what you say is comming from the cross.
In one of your posts you said that adam and eve's sin is what kept them out of the garden. I have read though that god had forgiven them. The consequence of the sin couldnt be taken back even through forgiveness. It wasnt moral but ontological reasons they were shut out.

no, what you are saying about what I said isn't true. and I still don't get what your posts have to do with the discussion.

 

[Toolbelt]

no, what you are saying about what I said isn't true. and I still don't get what your posts have to do with the discussion.

NP. I will give you the benefit of doubt, but please explain post 6 and 10 of the pelagainism and orthodoxy thread.

 

[ArmyMatt]

NP. I will give you the benefit of doubt, but please explain post 6 and 10 of the pelagainism and orthodoxy thread.

God did forgive them, I never said He didn't. and I never said it was simply moral and not ontological.

 

[Toolbelt]

As far as I understand it. Hell . Is a number of things. No one can doubt that the devil is the author of evil. He must be treated as such. Some people may be good but have forfeited there lives. Others who were sinners and repented are wiped clean. Others yet in a sinful state may be pardoned because they were married to a devout through prayer. Some other Christian who dont belong to the true church may be better than me. I dont know the mind of god fully. What I do know is that if he loves me and I ask. He will oblige. So praying for loved ones is vital to outcomes.

 

[Toolbelt]

God did forgive them, I never said He didn't. and I never said it was simply moral and not ontological.

I told you i would give you the benifit of doubt , but it read that way. It isnt that big of an issue anyway. The mindset is different for the east.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Christ made two things known for universalism. All are forgiven and all are resurrected. Here is the caveat though. One must willfully accept that grace and conform with the churches teachings.

Yes forgiveness is available for all - but can be rejected.

Resurrection will happen to all whether they desire it or not.

Their experience after the Resurrection hinges on whether or not they accept forgiveness offered to them.

It's funny but in either way of saying things, there is potential for misunderstanding still.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I told you i would give you the benifit of doubt , but it read that way. It isnt that big of an issue anyway. The mindset is different for the east.

I know, I am an Orthodox priest.

 

[Toolbelt]

Yes forgiveness is available for all - but can be rejected.

Resurrection will happen to all whether they desire it or not.

Their experience after the Resurrection hinges on whether or not they accept forgiveness offered to them.

It's funny but in either way of saying things, there is potential for misunderstanding still.

Yes that is certain.
I think you missed a vital point. If forgiveness is universal and resurrection is universal . Than how come one is a given and the other a contingent?

 

[Toolbelt]

I know, I am an Orthodox priest.

Well than. I'm sorry I didnt address you as father.
I am a greek orthodox layman. Fluant in greek as well.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well than. I'm sorry I didnt address you as father.
I am a greek orthodox layman. Fluant in greek as well.

it's no worries about that. I don't advertise. I only mentioned it so you know that I know the differences between East and West.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes that is certain.
I think you missed a vital point. If forgiveness is universal and resurrection is universal . Than how come one is a given and the other a contingent?

I honestly don't know. Except that we are in the image of God - that wasn't our choice either. His image is not destroyed (though obscured or marred in us) ... so I am guessing (not speaking for the Church) that this may be the cause that all will be resurrected. However I know that He will not force anyone to accept forgiveness.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes that is certain.
I think you missed a vital point. If forgiveness is universal and resurrection is universal . Than how come one is a given and the other a contingent?

both are givens. however, if you live your life against God and set your will against Him, the forgiveness and resurrection He gives is the torment.

 

[Toolbelt]

Both of you bring up good points.
I know I am going to bring up a touchy subject for some, but I think it needs some attention to clarify a point. The church I believe refuses a funeral service to those who they deem as forfeiting there lives. I cant conceive of why unless what Ive stated above is an element understated.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Both of you bring up good points.
I know I am going to bring up a touchy subject for some, but I think it needs some attention to clarify a point. The church I believe refuses a funeral service to those who they deem as forfeiting there lives. I cant conceive of why unless what Ive stated above is an element understated.

What does forfeiting their lives mean? Suicide? Death and not "being saved"? Or something else I'm not thinking of?

 

[Toolbelt]

What does forfeiting their lives mean? Suicide? Death and not "being saved"? Or something else I'm not thinking of?

We are getting ahead of ourselves. Not including a suicidal speaks volumes. It means that they are no longer a part of a group. It also means they are excommunicated. forfeiting there life means they have said to god that what you gave me i dont want. That is life or existence as a whole. Aka soul and body.
I know what your thinking. Well they are in hell. I wouldnt disagree.
Hell is simply a condition of human nature. Its a condition of being born onto death. It is a place we are already in and working our way out of.
If that were not the case than the church would include them in the funeral services.
They dont.
Orthodoxy has a closed communion for a reason. Otherwise it would open the door to all. Mortality isnt the problem. It ontological. I once saw things through that spectrum, because its natural to do so. The truth though is byond the natural understanding. Orthodoxy is a spirtual exercise and the HS is its author.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We are getting ahead of ourselves. Not including a suicidal speaks volumes. It means that they are no longer a part of a group. It also means they are excommunicated. forfeiting there life means they have said to god that what you gave me i dont want. That is life or existence as a whole. Aka soul and body.
I know what your thinking. Well they are in hell. I wouldnt disagree.
Hell is simply a condition of human nature. Its a condition of being born onto death. It is a place we are already in and working our way out of.
If that were not the case than the church would include them in the funeral services.
They dont.
Orthodoxy has a closed communion for a reason. Otherwise it would open the door to all. Mortality isnt the problem. It ontological. I once saw things through that spectrum, because its natural to do so. The truth though is byond the natural understanding. Orthodoxy is a spirtual exercise and the HS is its author.

Not trying to get ahead of ourselves but merely trying to make sure I understand what you were saying, since you mentioned "forfeit their lives".

I know the Church is prevented from offering funerals for those who committed suicide. But the bishops are permitted to offer exception if they are judged to have done so because of not being in their right mind. It is not my place to judge anyone as impossible for God to forgive in such circumstances.