Hell

[Toolbelt]

I understand you dont want to judge. The church though is making a judgement. the church can judge and it was given the power to do so. My point being. That judgment can be made in this life.

 

[Toolbelt]

Hell can be a condition of the living. Not just the dead.

 

[JeremiahsBulldog]

4/6
With Christ's death and resurrection, several things changed. Upon His death, His soul, like everyone else's, was taken by the Devil to Sheol/Hades. But both His body and His soul are united to His divinity. So in Sheol, He revealed His divinity, took the Devil captive, and preached to those imprisoned there (1 Pt 3:19 ). He tnen rescued the righteous souls, an event which was glimpsed by some living people ( Matthew 27:51-53 ). He took those souls to Paradise, which is now once again accessible ( Luke 23:43 ). Then, of course, He rose from the dead to give us a chance to enter Paradise as well. Paradise, like Sheol/Hades, is "somewhere" within God's uncreated Glory/Grace/Energy.
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At Christ's Second Coming, the dead, both saints and sinners, shall be resurrected. ( 1 Th 4:16-17 ). BTW, in this passage, death and Sheol/Hades/ are both listed, which means that they are not the same thing.

After the resurrection comes the Last Judgement (Rev 20:12-13 ).

Then God's Uncreated Divine Glory/Grace/Energy will subsume the Heavens, Paradise, the Earth, and Sheol/Hades, to become all in all ( 1 Cor 15:24-28; Rev 20:9-21:27 ).

To the righteous, this will be experienced as new Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem ( Rev 21 ).

To sinners, this will be experienced as a Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:15 ).

In Christ's parables, the future Lake of Fire is symbolized by "Gehenna". This refers to the Valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem. It served as the city's garbage dump. In the middle, a constant bonfire was kept, and people dumped their garbage there to be burned.

"Gehenna" is translated in the KJV as:

"hell" 9 times. (link ).

"hellfire" 3 times. (link ).

But when an object is burned, it doesn't completely disappear. There are ashes. So, when a sinner goes to the Lake of Fire, his sins are burned up, but his soul remains. ( Mat 9:43-48 ).

Correction. The last link should be Mark 9:43-48.

 

[ClementofA]

people in hell are tormented to the degree they hold onto their sin. they are in hell because they refuse to let go of their sin.

Early church opposition to endless hell

They can't let go of their sin, because in your view of God there is a cut off time for doing so & that was before they entered "hell". So God is to blame for that. He is also to blame because He created them knowing this would be their destiny. And, thirdly, He is to blame for their "eternity" of torment because He doesn't annihilate them. How is that not a sicko sadist?

 

[ClementofA]

if they did, hell would be paradise as it is for the saints. all hell is, is God pouring out His love and mercy and forgiveness on the sinner, and the sinner refusing it and knowing what that refusal entails. they don't get the chance because they don't want the chance, even though God never stops giving them the chance.

Early church opposition to endless hell

How do you know they won't for eternity accept the chance to accept God's love? Is it only one chance? If infinite chances are available, then it's virtually mathematically impossible all wouldn't accept His love.

 

[ClementofA]

sending them to another planet wouldn't do anything because God is omnipresent.

Early church opposition to endless hell

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Early church opposition to endless hell

They can't let go of their sin, because in your view of God there is a cut off time for doing so & that was before they entered "hell". So God is to blame for that. He is also to blame because He created them knowing this would be their destiny. And, thirdly, He is to blame for their "eternity" of torment because He doesn't annihilate them. How is that not a sicko sadist?

because they choose to go there, they choose to stay, and God honors their choice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Early church opposition to endless hell

How do you know they won't for eternity accept the chance to accept God's love? Is it only one chance? If infinite chances are available, then it's virtually mathematically impossible all wouldn't accept His love.

maybe everyone will on Judgment Day. that's certainly possible. but there aren't an infinite number of chances, because anything quantifiable can't be infinite.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Early church opposition to endless hell

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

this is where you don't get it. it's the blessings God bestows that makes hell, hell. they torment themselves because the peace and love and light that God IS, is what they don't want.

 

[ClementofA]

this is where you don't get it. it's the blessings God bestows that makes hell, hell.

Blessings make hell? Really?

If that were so, then Love Omnipotent should turn off His hellish blessings.

they torment themselves because the peace and love and light that God IS, is what they don't want.

Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Blessings make hell? Really?

If that were so, then Love Omnipotent should turn off His hellish blessings.



Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

we're talking about after Judgment Day when sin and death are no more, and we will all come before the Lord in His glory. so sticking the sinner on different planets would not do anything, because the love that God IS, is what they don't want.

 

[ClementofA]

because they choose to go there, they choose to stay, and God honors their choice.

Yet you keep trying to put all the blame on those in hell when in fact it is 100% due to the God who lets them suffer for eternity. For you failed to deal with the issues that won't go away:

They can't let go of their sin, because in your view of God there is a cut off time for doing so & that was before they entered "hell". So God is to blame for that. He is also to blame because He created them knowing this would be their destiny. And, thirdly, He is to blame for their "eternity" of torment because He doesn't annihilate them. How is that not a sicko sadist?

 

[ClementofA]

maybe everyone will on Judgment Day. that's certainly possible. but there aren't an infinite number of chances, because anything quantifiable can't be infinite.

So now you're saying everyone could be saved on Judgement Day, even Judas? That's called hopeful universalism.

If Love Omnipotent gave those in hell as many chances as they needed to accept Him, like trillions X trillions X trillions, etc, it is virtually mathematically impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity.

 

[ClementofA]

we're talking about after Judgment Day when sin and death are no more, and we will all come before the Lord in His glory. so sticking the sinner on different planets would not do anything, because the love that God IS, is what they don't want.

So God has made it so after Judgement Day they are not able to accept His love as the saints do. Whose fault is that? How is God then not a sick sadist for eternity?

As i said:


Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yet you keep trying to put all the blame on those in hell when in fact it is 100% due to the God who lets them suffer for eternity. For you failed to deal with the issues that won't go away:

They can't let go of their sin, because in your view of God there is a cut off time for doing so & that was before they entered "hell". So God is to blame for that. He is also to blame because He created them knowing this would be their destiny. And, thirdly, He is to blame for their "eternity" of torment because He doesn't annihilate them. How is that not a sicko sadist?

because He gives them the choice and He honors that choice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So now you're saying everyone could be saved on Judgement Day, even Judas? That's called hopeful universalism.

If Love Omnipotent gave those in hell as many chances as they needed to accept Him, like trillions X trillions X trillions, etc, it is virtually mathematically impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity.

no, I have always said that's a possibility to hope for. it is possible for hell to be empty. we have actually always said that.

the problem is infinity is a concept and not an actual number. quantifiable things like chances mathematically can't go on to infinity. it becomes mathematically absurd.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So God has made it so after Judgement Day they are not able to accept His love as the saints do. Whose fault is that? How is God then not a sick sadist for eternity?

As i said:


Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

and they make the choice on Judgement Day knowing where it leads and the consequences of that choice, and God honors that choice.

 

[ClementofA]

no, I have always said that's a possibility to hope for. it is possible for hell to be empty. we have actually always said that.

the problem is infinity is a concept and not an actual number. quantifiable things like chances mathematically can't go on to infinity. it becomes mathematically absurd.

If Love Omnipotent gave those in hell as many chances as they needed to accept Him, like trillions X trillions X trillions, etc, it is virtually mathematically impossible anyone would keep rejecting Him. The chance of rejecting God a trillion times is practically nil. In this life many people are not even given a handful of chances, let alone trillions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If Love Omnipotent gave those in hell as many chances as they needed to accept Him, like trillions X trillions X trillions, etc, it is virtually mathematically impossible anyone would keep rejecting Him. The chance of rejecting God a trillion times is practically nil. In this life many people are not even given a handful of chances, let alone trillions.

if people in this life are not given that many chances, you don't know that someone will or will not reject God a trillion times.

 

[ClementofA]

and they make the choice on Judgement Day knowing where it leads and the consequences of that choice, and God honors that choice.

Why honor that choice & cut off any further chances of accepting His love? Thus leading to hell & torments for eternity. That's not the will of a loving being, but a sicko sadist.