Hell

[Almost there]

The word is always translated as eternal or everlasting. Hence, Augustine's point is solid. If heaven is eternal, hell must be also. There are no loopholes, despite the efforts of many to search for them in vain.

I agree. Sort of. Hell (hades) is thrown into the "lake of fire" so is destroyed. And the fate of the lost is quite eternal in duration. They die and are not coming back. Their soul stays dead.

 

[HereIStand]

Oh for Pete's sake!!!!!!

So in other words, I can take any word I want and make it mean anything I want.

If the word "perro" in Spanish means dog, I can turn around and say it means "cat?"

The Greek word "aionios" does not mean "eternal." Greek scholars teach that. Yet you are telling me that to keep up your interpretation of the next life, you are allowed to give it a meaning that it doesn't have.

Sorry, but to me that is not only not honest, it is delusional. Or as a right-wing radio jock is fond of saying "Words mean things." And in this case, "aionios" means "age-during"

Protestant and Catholic translations old and modern have rendered the word as eternal. Beyond this, Scripture indicates that hell is eternal elsewhere. Sadly, some want to explain away Scripture and follow their own speculations.

Translating "aionios" as "age during" is a novel and controversial rendering made by David Bently Hart. His translation has been challenged:

The difficulty is more vexing in the consideration of what is perhaps Hart’s most earnest and ambitious novelty: the translation of the Greek adjective aiōnios—where it has been conventionally rendered “eternal”—by the formula “of the Age” (with variants). This innovation will be particularly controversial because it has consequences for our understanding of the biblical basis for the theological concepts of eternal life, eternal punishment, and the eternity of God. Hart makes a convincing case for a meaning of aiōnios in Jewish Hellenistic Greek of the first century that supports his rendering, but I remain unpersuaded by his argument as a whole, for the reason that aiōnios almost certainly continues the corresponding terms in biblical Hebrew (ōlām) and Aramaic (ʿālam), whose lexical history only partially overlaps that of aiōnios. Now Hart is fully aware of this, yet he contends (implausibly, in my opinion) that the Old Testament ʿōlām also means “age” in a sense congruent with Greek aiōn. Of course Hart might with perfect consistency concede that biblical Hebrew ʿōlām sometimes means “eternity,” and yet deny that this meaning is shining through the adjective aiōnios as used in the New Testament. Once again, it boils down to conflicting intuitions about biblical semantics and the uses to which the sacred author put his semi-Semitized Greek.

 

[Andy centek]

Actually, there is nothing in scripture that supports that there is a hell at all. "Hell" is a made up word. It's a shame too, nobody tried to come up with some other name for Jerusalem, but they seemed to think it needed to be done for Gehenna. I don't get it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No, he is not. And I am not either. We are looking at the Greek autographs. He made that rather clear in Post 110.

I find it strange, to say the least, that there are those who will either simply ignore what the Greek word means, or "reinvent the wheel" (so to speak) by saying that "aionios" means eternal.

With great respect for your priesthood, Father, I would ask you to go back and read all of Post 110 again. Several times, in fact. Then instruct me on how it is that the Greek word "aionios," which any Greek speaking Father of the Church would admit means "age-during" suddenly becomes "eternal."

To change that meaning is as bad, in my opinion, as the scurrilous interpretation of Matthew 3:38 in the Douay-Rheims Bible where the Latins translated "metanoia" to mean "do penance" when it means no such thing.

because the Councils and saints have defined hell as eternal. we are not reinventing the wheel. every language has context that is more than a simple language to language translation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Again, Father, said with respect.....please instruct me on how "aionios" translates from "age-during" (root word "aion" meaning "age" and having to do with the same) to "eternal." I am not getting it.

because you are reading it apart from the dogma which came first. this is DBH's error.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Agreed. They feel His love as torment. But does that mean that they are incapable of change? Does that mean that the pain they feel is somehow not restorative as well as a just punishment for the evils in which they engaged in this life?

Can God change the heart of the sinner, even after death?

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

At the heart of this blog post is the simple question - since all come to repentance at different times in their lives, why is it that entering into the next life suddenly makes this impossible? To repent after death is just a much, much later repentance than to repent here, with much more serious consequences.

God will only change those who wish to be changed. yes, as St Mark of Ephesus says, folks can be sent to hades to prepare them for Judgment Day and salvation. but that doesn't mean that will happen to all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fine. Where is the official condemnation (anethema) of DBH as a heretic by his bishop or the Church? He is not exactly some back-water amateur theologian. I hear crickets chirping.

I never said he was a heretic, only pointing out that simply saying someone is a scholar doesn't mean much. many times it was the uneducated who corrected the academic in the Church. and I would point out, what Hart says has already been condemned.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Protestant and Catholic translations old and modern have rendered the word as eternal. Beyond this, Scripture indicates that hell is eternal elsewhere. Sadly, some want to explain away Scripture and follow their own speculations.

Translating "aionios" as "age during" is a novel and controversial rendering made by David Bently Hart. His translation has been challenged:

yep, from what I have read, most Orthodox have not embraced what DBH has done or his translation.

 

[Toolbelt]

Orthodoxy as far as I know holds no dogma on the afterlife.
This verse indicates it can go either way.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[ArmyMatt]

Orthodoxy as far as I know holds no dogma on the afterlife.
This verse indicates it can go either way.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

no, we do. it's all over the services of how we deal with death. but it is not as systematic as the Middle Ages West

 

[Toolbelt]

Let me direct you to an article by his eminence metropolitan I. Zizioulas.
Let me also remind you that he is a standing metropolitan.

Dogmatics

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't get the point of the article. and I have some of His Eminence's books, so you needn't remind me he is a standing metropolitan.

 

[Toolbelt]

I don't get the point of the article. and I have some of His Eminence's books, so you needn't remind me he is a standing metropolitan.

Its a different way of looking at the same thing.
Its like looking at a car and then walking to the other side and seeing the samething. Its how the mind processes information. Some people can see both sides at once.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Its a different way of looking at the same thing.
Its like looking at a car and then walking to the other side and seeing the samething. Its how the mind processes information. Some people can see both sides at once.

what does that have to do with the topic? I am sorry, but I am not following you.

 

[Toolbelt]

Its simple. if one is an atheist he naturally sees. That this life is all there is. Salvation then becomes a matter of life or death. If christ offers him a way of continued life. Why not take that opportunity. Atheists see things in a naturalistic reality. When the lights go out. Thats all there is. Salvation then would be to eliminate exactly what they believe. Death.

 

[Toolbelt]

Only orthodoxy offers that way out. Both the RCC and protestants have a differing veiw of what hell is and its not changeable.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Orthodoxy as far as I know holds no dogma on the afterlife.
This verse indicates it can go either way.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Hello and welcome to CF and to TAW.

Just trying to understand you here. Are you suggesting that Orthodoxy teaches annihilationism?

Or something else?

Again, welcome.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Its simple. if one is an atheist he naturally sees. That this life is all there is. Salvation then becomes a matter of life or death. If christ offers him a way of continued life. Why not take that opportunity. Atheists see things in a naturalistic reality. When the lights go out. Thats all there is. Salvation then would be to eliminate exactly what they believe. Death.

Only orthodoxy offers that way out. Both the RCC and protestants have a differing veiw of what hell is and its not changeable.

but what does that have to do with the discussion? the link you posted seemed to be in response to me saying we do have an understanding of an afterlife, just not a systematic one like the West.

 

[Toolbelt]

Hello and welcome to CF and to TAW.

Just trying to understand you here. Are you suggesting that Orthodoxy teaches annihilationism?

Or something else?

Again, welcome.

Thank you for the welcome.


Well no not exactly. Let me ask you though. When we receive the holy light at the resurrection and sing the resurrection hymns. This very act is an icon of a future event. We all go home with our loved ones and celebrate. Why do we have to look any further into it? We are with our loved ones and everybody is alive.

 

[Toolbelt]

but what does that have to do with the discussion? the link you posted seemed to be in response to me saying we do have an understanding of an afterlife, just not a systematic one like the West.

Yes. Our focal point always resides in the resurrection for us. Beyond that is looking into the mind of god. I dont believe many have that insight. Only the saint