Hell is not permanent.

[EchoPneuma]

As to the point of my earlier question, I asked it being curious as to how many universalists had the chunks to outright say they don't deserve an eternal fire for their sins, even though Scripture says:


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

ANd where do you see in that scripture ANYTHING about eternal torment?? It says "DEATH"....not eternal torture. Where does it say "eternal fire" is the wages of sin??

It DOESN'T. You're adding YOUR ideas to what that scripture says. Perhaps if you would have asked how many feel like they deserve "death" because of their sins the answer might have been different.

 

[gort]

ANd where do you see in that scripture ANYTHING about eternal torment?? It says "DEATH"....not eternal torture. Where does it say "eternal fire" is the wages of sin??

It DOESN'T. You're adding YOUR ideas to what that scripture says. Perhaps if you would have asked how many feel like they deserve "death" because of their sins the answer might have been different.

Cleverly wordsmithing again EchoPneuma?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Cleverly wordsmithing again EchoPneuma?

Nope...... calling you on your changing of scripture again Daneel.

 

[gort]

Mar 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
YLT

Mat 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.
YLT

Mar 3:29 But he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never shall have forgiveness, but is liable to eternal condemnation.

Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come.
MKJV

Mar 3:29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

ASV

Regarding these verses, it appears the word aiōnios has a clear definition as to the length of time. IOW, it is never forgiven.

How does the universalist explain this?

 

[gort]

EP quotes:
Nope...... calling you on your changing of scripture again Daneel.

I'm changing Scripture? I prolly used the MKJV. Look it up. I did'nt change it.


Otherwise, my interpretation of death, that is, the wages of sin, is the eternal lake of fire.

 

[Soul Searcher]

How do you interperet 'eternal lake of burning sulfer'?

where do you get "eternal lake of buring sulphur" This is commonly referred to as the lake of fire or the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone[sulphur]. One interpretation for it is God, our God is a consuming fire, We will be judged by fire, baptized with fire, saved by fire. We will be judged by God, baptized with the Holy Spirit[God] Saved by God.

Wages of sin is death: eternally.

I have seen this type of comment before but it is at best nonsense when realted to eternal torment. eternal death means to die and stay dead forever it does not mean to die and then be tortured in fire forever.

We do deserve to burn.

No one deserves to burn forever, no not one. It is a sad thing that any can hold to such a belief.

That's why Jesus came.

No Jesus came because of Gods love for us to show us the way in which we were intended to live and share with one another. If we all truly deserved to burn forever he would not have bothered to come. Oboviously he thought we were worth saving. Think about that for a bit.

Heaven is only 160 miles by 160 miles...think of all the people from way back to now. Not everyone could fit in there, could they? And hell is supposed to be...I can't remember, but it's much larger. It means that it will hold more people. For eternity.

To take these things as literal is to not understand them at all, In Luke we are told by Jesus that the kingdom of God is within. Think about that also.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Is it really "easy to say"??

Yes words are cheap.

Have you never been shown by God what your sins are like before a Just and Holy God? A term for it would be 'Holy Spirit conviction'?

Yes I have and more. I have felt the sorrow of God, I have shared his tears and his joy. I have felt his love throughout my life.

Sometimes I doubt, sometimes I don't understand but deep down I have always known that he is always here in my heart, gently nudging me int he right direction.

Mere words can not describe my true thoughts here so I will leave it at this.

 

[Havahope]

Why do you assume that those not found in the Lambs book of Life will have a spiritual body like Christs?

Is there Scripture for this?

duh - The whole point of the post is that there are only two bodies that are scripturally taught. One is the earthy body and the other is the spiritual body. (1Cor. 15:44) The only way anyone can have a spiritual body is if it is through and by Jesus Christ. Jesus is the resurrection, and He is the life. (John 11:25)

 

[EchoPneuma]

I'm changing Scripture? I prolly used the MKJV. Look it up. I did'nt change it.


Otherwise, my interpretation of death, that is, the wages of sin, is the eternal lake of fire.

AHH...so now we have the jist of it. It's your INTERPRETATION that "death" means the eternal lake of fire.

You're entitled to your interpretation....but it's no better or no worse than anyone else's. It's an opinion...nothing more.

 

[Merzbow]

Regarding these verses, it appears the word aiōnios has a clear definition as to the length of time. IOW, it is never forgiven.

How does the universalist explain this?

As I just outlined in another thread, 'aionios' can also mean eternal in the sense of coming from the nature of the divine, or in the sense of timeless. This is in fact how Plato used it. But never is it used where it can only mean an everlasting duration of time. Look at the passages you quote - one mentions 'eternal' sin. Eternal is obviously being used here in the sense of the divine - that is, a sin that has Godly consequences. A single 'sin' is an action that has a beginning and end, and thus cannot be everlasting - although the consquences might be (but not in this passage, read on).

One can consider the so-called 'eternal punishment' mentioned in Mt. 25:46 to mean a corrective punishment, time-limited, with everlasting consequences (being returned to God). (The word used for punishment here actually means corrective punishment in the primary definition.) Or eternal in the sense of just being from the divine. Or in the literal sense of 'age-abiding' or 'age-lasting', although that weakens that parallelism of the verse. But not as 'endless duration'.

And these verses are a bad choice for you to make anyways; from what I read even many conservative evangelicals take them not to mean that there is literally a sin that we cannot be forgiven of, but that the sin of 'blaspheming against the Holy Spirit' really means the sin of denying God's forgiveness. Obviously as long as one deny's God's ability to forgive, one cannot be forgiven of anything, so the sin is recursive in that regard. But once one repents and asks for forgiveness, the ability to be forgiven is restored.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]And here's some startling evidence that early Christians did not mean aionios as everlasting. I've always been curious how that word was translated into Aramaic in the Peshitta (or Peshito), which was one of the very first translations of the NT:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Peshito.
It is in support of this translation that he appeals to the venerable Syriac version, the Peshito.
The Peshito is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: “Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Peshito was ‘made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa,’ when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia” (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Peshito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all.

How, then, was aionios translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, “So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear.” “These shall go into the pain of the Olam (the world to come), and these to the life of the Olam (the world to come).” He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17.; Luke xviii. 18; John iii.15: Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which aionios is rendered belonging to the Olam, the world to come. In all these cases we find in our version, eternal life, the same words that are used in the sentence of the judge, but in all they are rendered in the Peshito, the life of the world to come; and such, he tells us, is the rendering in all similar cases. Certainly evidence more direct and conclusive it is hard to imagine.[/SIZE]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Retribution/retribution18.htm

I was all set to compliment you on quoting some other source that tentmaker or helbusters, hereinafter called hellmakers. Until I took a close look at the link. Alas, it is just another blind cut/paste from hellmakers.

Let us all bow at the altar of hellmakers, yea verily. If it is posted at hellmakers then it must be the truth and anything that contradicts hellmakers is false.

Hellmakers is filled with lies and this is just another one. And yes I have proved it repeatedly altho no universlist will admit it.

Note, the Peshitta is a back translation from Greek NOT the earliest version of the NT! The oldest known ms. for the Peshitta is 442 AD, the oldest Greek mss. are 1st and 2d century.

See definitions for "olam." We do not need to discuss this Peshitta nonsense again.

Almost all Syriac scholars agree that the Peshitta gospels are translations of the Greek originals. A minority viewpoint is that the Peshitta represent the original New Testament and the Greek is a translation of it. For more information, see Aramaic primacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshitta

II Peter, II John, III John, Jude, Revelation of John
For the eastern part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (431 CE) the East Syrians separated themselves as the Nestorians. There are many surviving manuscripts of the Peshitta, the oldest of which bears the date 442. For much more on Peshitta history, see the article at The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism. It is noteworthy that exactly these 22 books are cited by John Chrystosom (~347-407) and Thedoret (393-466) from the School of Antioch. For a visual summary of these 22 books see the Cross Reference Table.

http://www.ntcanon.org/Peshitta.shtml

III [size=+1]עלם[/size][Olam] [size=+1]עולם[/size]. n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity — 1. of past time: a. ancient time: ymy olam days of old; am olam, ancient people; hrbwt olam, old waste places; ptkhy olam, ancient gates; mn (m)olam, from of old, of the fathers, the prophets, the ancient bhm olam: nplym, long in them. b. mty olam , the long dead. c. of God, molam : former acts; as redeemer; of love, judgment, dominion; long silence; his wisdom personif.; his existence. d. of things: gba’wt olam, ancient hills. e. pl. a’wlmym shnwt, years of ancient times;a’lmym, in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep.for ever, always (sts. = during the lifetime); a’bd a’wlm, slave for ever; a’bd lolam, serve for ever; g’alt olam, redemption at any time; hrt olam, ever pregnant (womb); klmt olam of persecutors of Jeremiah; shlwy olam, alway at ease; (yhyh) yhy lolam, may the king live always; so of the pious; other phr.; olam ‘ashyrh, I will sing for ever (as long as I live); other emotions and activities continuous throughout life. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth; other phr., heavens and contents, ruined cities, ruined lands; la’d a’d olam, for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: (Babylon loqu.); yshb lolam, of Judah; (3) families; the dynasty of Saul; house of Eli; (4) national relations: ‘aybt olam, continual enmity; of exclusion from a’d olam, qhl ylam; various relations; khrpt olam, perpetual reproach, of dynasty of David, families. c. of divine existence: hy holam; hy ‘anky lolam; ‘alhy olam; ‘al olm; of divine name, zh shmy lolam; blessing and praise of it; of YHWH himself; attributes, ‘ahbh; reign; presence in Zion; his salvation; zra’t olam, everlasting arms . d. of God’s covenant: bryt olam, everlasting covenant[/b][/I]; covenant with Noah, ld r t olam 5; God remembers it; will not break it, lolam. e. of God’s laws; temple to bear God’s name, a’d olam; consecrated; its ceremonies; Levit. priesthood; Aaronic priesthood. f. of God’s promises: his word, yqwm lolam; promised dynasty of David; of holy land; given lolam, inherited lolam; dwelt in a’d olam; other blessings; Jerus. to abide lolam . g. of relations between God and his people, lolam. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (l)olam; having divine throne; name endures; established; God blesses him; of his reign. i. = indefinite, unending future: live hwby’aym hlolam yhyw lolam, the prophets, can they live for ever?; c. neg. never. j. after death. k. = age (duration) of the world: a’t h’alm ntn blbm, the age of the world he hath set, etc. 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity. m. special phr.: m(h)olam (w)a’d (h)olam (mn) from everlasting to everlasting, of yolam; khsd yolam; benedictions; the land given; wa’d olam ma’th, from now and for ever (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God; dynasty of David; of God’s acts, words, etc.; v. further I. a’d.

[size=-1]Whitaker, R., Brown, F., Driver, S. (. R., & Briggs, C. A. (. A. 1997, c1906. The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament : From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, based on the lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius, 1833. Edited by Richard Whitaker (Princeton Theological Seminary). Text provided by Princeton Theological Seminary. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor WA.[/size]
​

 

[timlamb]

tim, I have no desire to "rip you to pieces". That was not my motive for asking you to address the quote. My motive was to make you think, and perhaps see how incongruous the doctrine of eternal torment is with what the scripture teaches. If we believe that the apostle Paul was blessed and inspired of God, then we must believe that none of his discourses were lacking in the completion of their over-all theme. And what I mean by that is, that if there were another body besides the earthy body and the spiritual body, it seems to me that in order for Paul to be complete; leaving nothing to speculation, 1Cor 15:42-49 would have been the perfect place for the apostle to expound or explain about it.

Since we know from common reasoning and logic that this body that we have now can hardly withstand even the wear and tear of the normal life-span, we know that it certainly could not withstand eternity even under the best of conditions. So this would rule out the earthy body as being the body that is going to be tormented eternally. The only body that is left is the spiritual body. That body is like that of Christ's, and it is only through Him that we shall recieve that body.

1John 3:2 "Dearly beloved, we are now God's children, but what we are going to be has not been unveiled. We know that if it is unveiled, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is."

Now, is it God serving, or even plausable to believe that the spiritual body which has been given us through, and by Christ, and which is like His, is going to be cast down into the utter ruin and degradation that the eternal torment doctrine purports?

It is my opinion, from scripture, that any referance to the children of God, is refering to those who are saved by faith. God's children will be made Christ like when we become sinless in His presence, in heaven.
no one will take a Christ like body to hell.
I am looking forward to that perfect body, I'm afraid I have abused this one sonething fierce.

 

[Der Alte]

As I just outlined in another thread, 'aionios' can also mean eternal in the sense of coming from the nature of the divine, [No evidence] [size=-1]or in the sense of timeless. This is in fact how Plato used it. But never is it used where it can only mean an everlasting duration of time.[/size] [No evidence] [size=-1]Look at the passages you quote - one mentions 'eternal' sin. Eternal is obviously being used here in the sense of the divine[/size] [No evidence] [size=-1]- that is, a sin that has Godly consequences. A single 'sin' is an action that has a beginning and end, and thus cannot be everlasting,[/size] [No evidence] [size=-1] - although the consquences might be (but not in this passage, read on).

One can consider the so-called 'eternal punishment' mentioned in Mt. 25:46 to mean a corrective punishment, time-limited, with everlasting consequences (being returned to God).[/size] [No evidence] [size=-1](The word used for punishment here actually means corrective punishment in the primary definition.)[/size] [No evidence] [size=-1] Or eternal in the sense of just being from the divine.[/size] [No evidence] [size=-1] Or in the literal sense of 'age-abiding' or 'age-lasting', although that weakens that parallelism of the verse. But not as 'endless duration'.

And these verses are a bad choice for you to make anyways; from what I read even many conservative evangelicals [/size] [No evidence] [size=-1]take them not to mean that there is literally a sin that we cannot be forgiven of, but that the sin of 'blaspheming against the Holy Spirit' really means the sin of denying God's forgiveness. Obviously as long as one deny's God's ability to forgive, one cannot be forgiven of anything, so the sin is recursive in that regard. But once one repents and asks for forgiveness, the ability to be forgiven is restored.[/SIZE]

Logical fallacy. Appeal to authority. No evidence.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I will grant that knowing what the ancient Jews thought of Gehenna at the time Jesus taught them might help us illuminate exactly what Christ and the apostles and disciples meant when they spoke of Gehenna, Hades, outer darkness, etc. because their initial audience was, after all, the Jews. It's a valid point Der Alter brought up. Unfortunately for his argument, it turns out the ancient Jews were more universalist than anything else. [/SIZE]

Alfred Edersheim was an Orthodox Jewish scholar, who became a Messianic in the 19th century. Making assertions and posting smilies is not evidence.

The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim

Appendix Xix.
On Eternal Punishment, According To The Rabbis And The New Testament
(See vol. ii. Book V. ch. vi.)

Thus far the meaning of the Lord’s Words, which could only be impaired by any attempt at commentation. But they also raise questions of the deepest importance, in which not only the head, but perhaps much more the heart, is interested, as regards the precise meaning of the term ‘everlasting’ and ‘eternal’ in this and other connections, so far as those on the Left Hand of Christ are concerned. The subject has of late attracted renewed attention. The doctrine of the Eternity of Punishments, with the proper explanations and limitations given to it in the teaching of the Church, has been set forth by Dr. Pusey in his Treatise: ‘What is of Faith as to Everlasting Punishment?’ Before adverting, however briefly, to the New Testament teaching, it seems desirable with some fulness to set forth the Jewish views on this subject. For the views held at the time of Christ, whatever they were must have been those which the hearers of Christ entertained; and whatever views, Christ did not at least directly, contradict or, so far as we can infer, intend to correct them. 6491 And here we have happily sufficient materials for a history of Jewish opinions at different periods on the Eternity Punishment; and it seems the more desirable carefully to set it forth, as statements both inaccurate and incomplete have been put forward on the subject.

Leaving aside the teaching of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigraphic Writing (to which Dr. Pusey has sufficiently referred), the first Rabbinic utterances come to us from the time immediately before that of Christ, from the Schools of Shammai and Hillel (Rosh haSh. 16 b last four lines, and 17 a). 6492 The former arranged all mankind into three classes: the perfectly righteous, who are ‘immediately written and sealed to eternal life;’ the perfectly wicked, who are ‘immediately written and sealed to Gehenna;’ and an intermediate class. ‘who go down to Gehinnom, and moan, and come up again,’ according to Zech. xiii. 9, and which seemed also indicated in certain words in the Song of Hannah (1 Sam. ii. 6). The careful reader will notice that this statement implies belief in Eternal Punishment on the part of the School of Shammai. For (1) The perfectly wicked are spoken of as ‘written and sealed unto Gehenna;’ (2) The school of Shammai expressly quotes, in support of what it teaches about these wicked, Dan xii. 2, a passage which undoubtedly refers to the final judgment after the Resurrection; (3) The perfectly wicked, so punished, are expressly distinguished from the third, or intermediate class, who merely ‘go down to Gehinnom,’ but are not ‘written and sealed,’ and ‘come up again.’

Substantially the same, as regards Eternity of Punishment, is the view of the School of Hillel (u. s. 17 a). In regard to sinners of Israel and of the Gentiles it teaches, indeed, that they are tormented in Gehenna for twelve months, after which their bodies and souls are burnt up and scattered as dust under the feet of the righteous; but it significantly excepts from this number certain classes of transgressors ‘who go down to Gehinnom and are punished there to ages of ages.’ That the Niphal form of the verb used, {hebrew}; must mean ‘punished’ and not ‘judged,’ appears, not only from the context, but from the use of the same word and form in the same tractate (Rosh haSh. 12 a, lines 7 &c. from top), when it is said of the generation of the Flood that ‘they were punished’ surely not ‘judged’ - by ‘hot water.’ However, therefore the School of Hillel might accentuate the mercy of God, or limit the number of those who would suffer Eternal Punishment, it did teach Eternal Punishment in the case of some. And this is the point in question.

But, since the Schools of Shammai and Hillel represented the theological teaching in the time of Christ and His Apostles, it follows, that the doctrine of Eternal Punishment was that held in the days of our Lord, however it may afterwards have been modified. Here, so far as this book is concerned, we might rest the case. But for completeness’ sake it will be better to follow the historical development of Jewish theological teaching, at least a certain distance.

The doctrine of the Eternity of Punishments seems to have been held by the Synagogue throughout the whole first century of our era. This will appear from the sayings of the Teachers who flourished during its course. The Jewish Parable of the fate of those who had not kept their festive garments in readiness or appeared in such as were not clean (Shabb. 152 b, 153 a) has been already quoted in our exposition of the Parables of the Man without the Wedding-garment and of the TenVirgins. But we have more than this. We are told (Ber. 28 b) that, when that great Rabbinic authority of the first century, Rabbi Jochanan ben Zakkai - ‘the light of Israel, the right hand pillar, the mighty hammer’ - lay a dying and wept, he accounted for his tears by fear as to his fate in judgment, illustrating the danger by the contrast of punishment by an earthly king ‘whose bonds

fn. 6492 In view of the strange renderings and interpretations given of Rosh haSh. 16 b, 17 a, I must call special attention to this locus classicus.

are not eternal bonds nor his death eternal death,’ while as regarded God and His judgment: ‘if He is angry with me, His Wrath is an Eternal Wrath, if He binds me in fetters, His fetters are Eternal fetters, and if He kills me, His death is an Eternal Death.’ In the same direction is this saying of another great Rabbi of the first century, Elieser (Shabb, 152 b, about the middle), to the effect that ‘the souls of the righteous are hidden under the throne of glory,’ while those of the wicked were to be bound and in unrest ({hebrew}), one Angel hurling them to another from one end of the world to the other - of which latter strange idea he saw confirmation in 1 Sam. xxv. 29. To the fate of the righteous applied, among other beautiful passages, Is. lvii. 2, to that of the wicked Is. lvii. 21. Evidently, the views of the Rabbis of the first century were in strict accordance with those Shammai and Hillel.

Is lvii:21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

Tempting as the subject is, we must here break off this historial review, for want to space, not of material. Dr. Pusey has shown that the Targumim also teach the doctrine of Eternal Punishment - though their date is matter of discussion - and to the passage quoted by him in evidence others might be added. And if on the other side the saying of Rabbi Akiba should be quoted (Eduy. ii. 10) to the effect that the judgment of the wicked in Gehenna was one of the five things that lasted for twelve months, it must be remembered that, even if this be taken seriously (for it is really only a jeu d’ esprit), it does not necessarily imply more than the teaching of Hillel concerning that intermediate class of sinners who were in Gehenna for a year - while there was another class the duration of whose punishment would be for ages of ages. Even more palpably inapt is the quotation from Baba Mez. 58 b (lines 5, &c., from the bottom). For, if that passage declares that all are destined to come up again from Gehenna, it expressly excepts from this these three classes of persons: adulterers, those who put their fellow-men publicly to shame, and those who apply an evil name to their neighbors.

But there can at least be no question, that the passage which has been quoted at the outset of these remarks (Rosh haSh. 16 b, 17 a), proves beyond the possibility of gainsaying that both the Great Schools, in which Rabbinic teaching at the time of Christ was divided, held the doctrine of Eternal Punishments. This, of course, entirely apart from the question who - how many, or rather, how few - were to suffer this terrible fate. And here the cautions and limitations, with which Dr. Pusey has shown that the Church has surrounded her teaching, cannot be too often or earnestly repeated. It does, indeed, seem painfully strange that, if the meaning of it be all realized, some should seem so anxious to contend for the extension to so many of a misery from which our thoughts shrink in awe. Yet of this we are well assured, that the Judge of all the Earth will judge, not only righteously, but mercifully. He alone knows all the secrets of heart and life, and He alone can apportion to each the due need. And in this assured conviction may the mind trustfully rest as regards those who have been dear to us.​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]ANd where do you see in that scripture ANYTHING about eternal torment?? It says "DEATH"....not eternal torture. Where does it say "eternal fire" is the wages of sin??

It DOESN'T. You're adding YOUR ideas to what that scripture says. Perhaps if you would have asked how many feel like they deserve "death" because of their sins the answer might have been different.[/SIZE]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

Death = separation from God.

 

[Der Alte]

Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]

And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that "what is impossible with men is possible with God,"42 and, "Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell."43 And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass

And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: "I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame."

Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]

For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,

A certain woman lived with an intemperate4 husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.

But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14

Chapter IX.-Eternal Punishment Not a Mere Threat.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV [a.d. 120-202.] Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John

So says the apostle, in like manner, in the Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, at the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven with His mighty angels, and in a flame of fire, to take vengeance upon those who know not God, and upon those that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; when He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them who have believed in Him."

Irenaeus Book V

But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P7979_2198226

Clement Rome [a.d. 30-100.]

Envy brought down Dathan and Abiram alive to Hades, through the sedition which they excited against God's servant Moses.

For they went down alive into Hades, and death swallowed them up.

On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-05.htm#P171_20841

Clement Alexandria Exhortation to the Heathen [153-193-217 AD]

And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, in as much as they held goodness in high esteem; while,on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: "He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire? "120 What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men's minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.

He bestows salvation, you sink down into destruction; He confers everlasting life, you wait for punishment, and prefer the fire which the Lord "has prepared for the devil and his angels."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-50.htm#P2691_785581

Clement of Alex. The Instructor [Paedagogus] Bk 2

There was a certain man," said the Lord, narrating, "very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day." This was the hay. "And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table." This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father's bosom.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-53.htm#P3706_1120269

The Second Epistle of Clement.

For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, "If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity."38 Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how39 can we hope to enter into the royal residence40 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-28.htm#P5819_852153

Theophilus to Autolycus Book I. [115-168-181 AD]

Admitting, therefore, the proof which events happening as predicted afford, I do not disbelieve, but I believe, obedient to God, whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, "We have not heard, neither have we known." But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures,21 and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing22 seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither hath eye seen, nor ear heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive.23 But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish,24 and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men. Since you said, "Show me thy God," this is my God, and I counsel you to fear Him and to trust Him.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/TOC.htm

St. John Chrysostom Homily IX. [347-407]

1 Corinthians chapter 3, verse 12-15 If any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble; each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire shall prove each man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.

This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; namely, whether hell fire have any end. For that it hath no end Christ indeed declared when he said, "Their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die. [Mark chapter 8, verse 44 and Mark chapter 8, verse 46 and Mark chapter 8, verse 48]

As I said then; that it hath no end, Christ has declared. Paul also saith, in pointing out the eternity of the punishment, that the sinners "shall pay the penalty of destruction, and that for ever" (2 Thessalonians chapter 1, verse 9) And again, (1 Corinthians chapter 6, verse 9) "Be not deceived; neither fornicators. nor adulterers, nor effeminate, shall inherit the the kingdom of God." And also unto the Hebrews he saith, (Hebrews chapter 12, verse 14) "Follow peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord." And Christ also, to those who said, "In thy Name we have done many wonderful works," saith, "Depart from Me, I know you not, ye workers of iniquity" (St. Matthew chapter 7, verse 22) And the virgins too who were shut out, entered in no more. And also about those who gave Him no food, He saith, (St. Matthew chapter 25, verse 46) "They shall go away into everlasting punishment."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-14.htm​

 

[red77]

Maybe they're like you and can't imagine (for now) a God who has the ultimate say in Justice for the outright rejection of Grace?



There are several 1st and 2nd century ECF that espoused the doctrine of eternal punishment. If you want to call that organized religion, that's ok.

There was a time in church history when many people flocked to the churches just to hear about the torments of hell. It was a rush for them, an excitement, a scary rollercoaster ride.

As to the point of my earlier question, I asked it being curious as to how many universalists had the chunks to outright say they don't deserve an eternal fire for their sins, even though Scripture says:


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Can u imagine eternity Daneel....? If so you must be the only one i know of who can.......you're right in as far as God has the ultimate say in justice, i perceive it to be far more merciful than you which is the difference

It does not surprise me that people through history have been fascinated by the doctrine of hell, there are books i've read chronicling the various graphic descriptions of such a place through the ages, and for the most part these were the twisted images of the darkest side of the human psyche.....unfortunately it still seems to be the case today......

I've already said that i dont think i or anyone else is deserving of an eternal place of torment, universalists have the 'chunks' to say that because they dont believe in an eternal hell, eternal life is a 'gift' as you say....as i've already mentioned at some point, gifts dont come with conditions attached to them and one day i believe that gift will be received by all, once they know its being offered to them,

and you or anyone else is free to pull this apart as you wish, the bottom line is I believe in a far more loving and merciful God than the ones the 'hellthumpers' believe in....i'm yet to see any warmth/empathy/love or compassion from any of the people here who tout ET......and i wonder why that is.........yet all these things are integral it seems to the poeple here who dont subscribe to it.........and i wonder why that is also.......

 

[KCDAD]

Welcome back Der Alter, you old goat. I missed you yesterday. So bottome line is modern Jewish scholarshipis that you die for twelve months, but before that everyone thought death was death and either you went to gehenna, gehinnom (??? That will twist a Greek person's head off) or go to eternal life... where? OK... I'll buy that. No eternal torment, just death for the wicked. I am thinking about now that death might be better than eternity with out just one person that I love. How can I spend ETERNITY knowing that someone I love didn't make it? Someone who I know deserved the same fate as me, but they just didn't say the right words or wear the right WWJD bracelet. NO, for me, and mine... we'll take death over eternal life without grace..

 

[katallasso]

How do you interperet 'eternal lake of burning sulfer'? Wages of sin is death: eternally. We do deserve to burn. That's why Jesus came. Heaven is only 160 miles by 160 miles...think of all the people from way back to now. Not everyone could fit in there, could they? And hell is supposed to be...I can't remember, but it's much larger. It means that it will hold more people. For eternity.

Miss Becky,

First let me say I like your outfit. Then I would like to ask you to consider this. Our Father God loves the whole world as it says in John 3:16. So do you really think He would make heaven only big enough to hold some of His creation and have to make hell bigger to hold the rest. Seems to me He would have made heaven bigger while He was making it just in case some of the ones destined for Hell changed their mind. I know I would have and I'm not anywhere near as loving as He is.

But thank goodness He decided to redeem us all.

 

[KCDAD]

Heaven is only 160 miles by 160 miles...think of all the people from way back to now. And hell is supposed to be...I can't remember, but it's much larger.

So Heaven is like Rhode Island and Hell is...what? Texas? I want Heaven to be like San Diego.

So heaven might be a little crowded... if it were like San Diego we could all have boats. And they got both baseball and football there.