Hell is not permanent.

[timlamb]

Your God sure is busy trying to keep us in line. The Jews get no credit for their preservation of their religion, the sheepherders (like David) of the middle east get no credit for sharing their culture... I guess there is no need to pray, God is micro managing everything. "So we could have them today"... what a self centered egotististic point of view. You need to read how our Canon got to be the way it is, how doctrine was preserved through the diaspora and dark ages... who preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls? God or the Essenes?
"Divinely kept intact and true"... that's why they are so consistant... like the flood story contradictions, like the two different stories of creation, like the levitical laws which have been called lies of the scribes... like the two different version of the ten commandments... intact and true... bah... humbug. Do you realkly think this all of the scriptures? Jesus refers to scriptures not in the Canon...

You hit the nail on the head. The Jews abandon their faith so many times, and God brought them back into line. If their God had been like baal, or one of the many false gods of the day, he would have gone the way of them also. God gets all the credit, AMEN!!
because God perserved our knowledge of Himself for the current day, and took care of what might have been lost, does not mean there is no reason to pray. We still have needs and so much to be thankful for. It is God's Holy word, preserved for us for the benifit of this generation, it is a gift. One you obviously don't accept.

 

[EchoPneuma]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.....

 

[Soul Searcher]

who preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls? God or the Essenes?

The Essenes were certianly an interesting lot. I have been reading a good bit about them lately.

 

[buddy mack]

The Essenes were certianly an interesting lot. I have been reading a good bit about them lately.

is this thread going to be permanent?

 

[katallasso]

is this thread going to be permanent?

Dunno Buddy, but it sure has been a lively one.

 

[Merzbow]

The Jewish Encyclopedia is an orthodox source. Wikipedia is not! And the modern Jewish view of hell, etc. is totally irrelevant. The assertion was that the O.T. did not, does not teach an eternal hell, where the wicked are punished forever. The ancient Jews did believe in hell, that was the belief at the time of Jesus and Jesus said and did nothing to refute that. So quote a thousand websites, they are all irrelevant. What is relevant is what the Jews believed at the time of the O.T. I am the only one who has posted any evidence whatsoever concerning that.

OK, so I've already established that contemporary Jews do not think Hell is eternal for anyone... they in fact believe anyone can get into heaven, not only Jews. I admit it's a possibility that ancient Jews thought differently. So let's consider the evidence of this encyclopedia article. For one, the article is a mess. It does not indicate when Jews thought what, which Jews thought what, and how strongly. It's just a list of Jewish interpretations of Gehenna from various sources. But let's take it at face value. What does it teach?

...those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). ... Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b)...


...It would seem that the expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see 'Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.

I've highlited the relevant portions in bold. Let's take a vote, readers. Do these passages teach eternal torment for all the 'unsaved' (a concept that doesn't even exist among the Jews)? Read what it says! Again:

Twelve months in Gehenna.

Hell shall pass away.

(The) fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners.

There will be no Gehenna in the future world.

(The) expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically.

To claim that the ancient Jews would have immediately thought that Jesus meant eternal hell for the Jews, his audience, when he mentioned Gehenna or Hades, is absolutely ludicrous. Even assuming the Jews thought large classes of non-Jews would go to hell (which is NOT supported by the above article), it's crystal clear they did not think any Jews would go to an eternal hell.

 

[Soul Searcher]

is this thread going to be permanent?

Given the post you quoted I'm not sure that I understand your question.

Are you referring to this hell thread?
or
Are you referring to the thread of Essene influence that has been appearing in some of my posts recently?

 

[KCDAD]

You hit the nail on the head. The Jews abandon their faith so many times, and God brought them back into line. If their God had been like baal, or one of the many false gods of the day, he would have gone the way of them also. God gets all the credit, AMEN!!
because God perserved our knowledge of Himself for the current day, and took care of what might have been lost, does not mean there is no reason to pray. We still have needs and so much to be thankful for. It is God's Holy word, preserved for us for the benifit of this generation, it is a gift. One you obviously don't accept.

OK... lets see about this gift...
How many of each of the animals went on the ark?
How long did the flood last?
Was man created before woman or at the same time?
How many friends did Job have with him?
Who is Satan, Lucifer, The Devil, Son of the Morning Star, The Beast, Anti-Christ, The Dragon? (Hint: they are not the same )
How many "angels" were in the tomb when Mary got there?
How did Judas die?
Who were the Twelve disciples? (Their names)
This should be an easy one... what is Jesus' name?

 

[Havahope]

. . . . . I have a feeling you are going to have a hayday with this; like how does one burn in the lake of fire without a body. I don't have any idea what the spiritual equivelant will be, but I am sure it will be more estreem.
OK there you go, rip me to pieces.

tim, I have no desire to "rip you to pieces". That was not my motive for asking you to address the quote. My motive was to make you think, and perhaps see how incongruous the doctrine of eternal torment is with what the scripture teaches. If we believe that the apostle Paul was blessed and inspired of God, then we must believe that none of his discourses were lacking in the completion of their over-all theme. And what I mean by that is, that if there were another body besides the earthy body and the spiritual body, it seems to me that in order for Paul to be complete; leaving nothing to speculation, 1Cor 15:42-49 would have been the perfect place for the apostle to expound or explain about it.

Since we know from common reasoning and logic that this body that we have now can hardly withstand even the wear and tear of the normal life-span, we know that it certainly could not withstand eternity even under the best of conditions. So this would rule out the earthy body as being the body that is going to be tormented eternally. The only body that is left is the spiritual body. That body is like that of Christ's, and it is only through Him that we shall recieve that body.

1John 3:2 "Dearly beloved, we are now God's children, but what we are going to be has not been unveiled. We know that if it is unveiled, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is."

Now, is it God serving, or even plausable to believe that the spiritual body which has been given us through, and by Christ, and which is like His, is going to be cast down into the utter ruin and degradation that the eternal torment doctrine purports?

 

[EchoPneuma]

OK, so I've already established that contemporary Jews do not think Hell is eternal for anyone... they in fact believe anyone can get into heaven, not only Jews. I admit it's a possibility that ancient Jews thought differently. So let's consider the evidence of this encyclopedia article. For one, the article is a mess. It does not indicate when Jews thought what, which Jews thought what, and how strongly. It's just a list of Jewish interpretations of Gehenna from various sources. But let's take it at face value. What does it teach?




I've highlited the relevant portions in bold. Let's take a vote, readers. Do these passages teach eternal torment for all the 'unsaved' (a concept that doesn't even exist among the Jews)? Read what it says! Again:

Twelve months in Gehenna.

Hell shall pass away.

(The) fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners.

There will be no Gehenna in the future world.

(The) expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically.

To claim that the ancient Jews would have immediately thought that Jesus meant eternal hell for the Jews, his audience, when he mentioned Gehenna or Hades, is absolutely ludicrous. Even assuming the Jews thought large classes of non-Jews would go to hell (which is NOT supported by the above article), it's crystal clear they did not think any Jews would go to an eternal hell.

Amazing that he keeps quoting that Jewish encyclopedia like it proves his point. It does nothing of the sort. You've shown plainly how it actually leans towards the universalist perspective. Which doesn't surprise me.

BUt it doesn't matter anyway. I don't think the ancient Jews should be taken as an authority on anything spiritual. THey missed who Jesus was, for crying out loud. They killed their own Messiah because they were so spiritually blind....so I don't really think they have a whole lot of chutzpah as far as teaching us about any spiritual realities.

 

[Merzbow]

I will grant that knowing what the ancient Jews thought of Gehenna at the time Jesus taught them might help us illuminate exactly what Christ and the apostles and disciples meant when they spoke of Gehenna, Hades, outer darkness, etc. because their initial audience was, after all, the Jews. It's a valid point Der Alter brought up. Unfortunately for his argument, it turns out the ancient Jews were more universalist than anything else.

 

[Merzbow]

And here's some startling evidence that early Christians did not mean aionios as everlasting. I've always been curious how that word was translated into Aramaic in the Peshitta (or Peshito), which was one of the very first translations of the NT:

The Peshito.
It is in support of this translation that he appeals to the venerable Syriac version, the Peshito.
The Peshito is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: “Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Peshito was ‘made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa,’ when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia” (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Peshito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all.

How, then, was aionios translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, “So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear.” “These shall go into the pain of the Olam (the world to come), and these to the life of the Olam (the world to come).” He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17.; Luke xviii. 18; John iii.15: Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which aionios is rendered belonging to the Olam, the world to come. In all these cases we find in our version, eternal life, the same words that are used in the sentence of the judge, but in all they are rendered in the Peshito, the life of the world to come; and such, he tells us, is the rendering in all similar cases. Certainly evidence more direct and conclusive it is hard to imagine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Retribution/retribution18.htm

 

[Merzbow]

Oh and look at this... another clear use of aionios in the Bible to mean a limited period of time. This passage has only recently been un-mistranslated by some modern translations:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2 Timothy 1 (ESV)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

[/FONT]So what is the Greek behind 'before the ages began'? This:

"pro chronon aionion"

Those familiar with Greek will excuse the poor transliteration, without omegas or accents, but 'pro' is a preposition meaning 'before', and it takes the genitive case. 'chronon aionion' are genitive plural in the second declension, 'chronon' a noun meaning 'a time long or short', and 'aionion' of course an adjective meaning 'of or pertaining to an age'. So we have, roughly, 'before the age-like times'. In PLURAL. That means, each one of limited duration.

 

[gort]

tim, I have no desire to "rip you to pieces". That was not my motive for asking you to address the quote. My motive was to make you think, and perhaps see how incongruous the doctrine of eternal torment is with what the scripture teaches. If we believe that the apostle Paul was blessed and inspired of God, then we must believe that none of his discourses were lacking in the completion of their over-all theme. And what I mean by that is, that if there were another body besides the earthy body and the spiritual body, it seems to me that in order for Paul to be complete; leaving nothing to speculation, 1Cor 15:42-49 would have been the perfect place for the apostle to expound or explain about it.

Since we know from common reasoning and logic that this body that we have now can hardly withstand even the wear and tear of the normal life-span, we know that it certainly could not withstand eternity even under the best of conditions. So this would rule out the earthy body as being the body that is going to be tormented eternally. The only body that is left is the spiritual body. That body is like that of Christ's, and it is only through Him that we shall recieve that body.

1John 3:2 "Dearly beloved, we are now God's children, but what we are going to be has not been unveiled. We know that if it is unveiled, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is."

Now, is it God serving, or even plausable to believe that the spiritual body which has been given us through, and by Christ, and which is like His, is going to be cast down into the utter ruin and degradation that the eternal torment doctrine purports?

Why do you assume that those not found in the Lambs book of Life will have a spiritual body like Christs?

Is there Scripture for this?

 

[gort]

Something just occurred to me for what its worth.......

I wonder how many people who without any knowledge of the bible/dogmas doctrines etc who, when hearing that there's a God who 'righteously' inflicts eternal punishment on human beings say 'Oh, yeah, that makes sense, very fair, justice is served' ,or i wonder how many would actually be horrified and couldnt make sense of it.......

Maybe they're like you and can't imagine (for now) a God who has the ultimate say in Justice for the outright rejection of Grace?

It is organized religion which instills this insidious message in people, the church has used it as a control for centuries......
back in the 'dark' ages it was a convenient way of keeping people in line when the church had so much power over people, it was easier to keep people in check with threatening damnation because they'd be less likely to steal omeones ox or something......!
Yet these are supposed to be enlightened times and this 'fear factory' is still caught up in peoples lives,
love is more powerful than fear and i for one am glad i got out of the darkness that was the traditional church

There are several 1st and 2nd century ECF that espoused the doctrine of eternal punishment. If you want to call that organized religion, that's ok.

There was a time in church history when many people flocked to the churches just to hear about the torments of hell. It was a rush for them, an excitement, a scary rollercoaster ride.

As to the point of my earlier question, I asked it being curious as to how many universalists had the chunks to outright say they don't deserve an eternal fire for their sins, even though Scripture says:


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Soul Searcher]

As to the point of my earlier question, I asked it being curious as to how many universalists had the chunks to outright say they don't deserve an eternal fire for their sins, even though Scripture says:


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So because the scripture says the wage of sin is death we should somehow come to the conclusion that after we die we deserve to be burned for all eternity? Your scripture does not even come remotely close to indicating such a thing.

 

[gort]

So what are you going to do with us, once we all get our hands up? Make us stay in at recess?

Nah, for right now, I'm just takin names and numbers....

 

[Becky153]

So because the scripture says the wage of sin is death we should somehow come to the conclusion that after we die we deserve to be burned for all eternity? Your scripture does not even come remotely close to indicating such a thing.

How do you interperet 'eternal lake of burning sulfer'? Wages of sin is death: eternally. We do deserve to burn. That's why Jesus came. Heaven is only 160 miles by 160 miles...think of all the people from way back to now. Not everyone could fit in there, could they? And hell is supposed to be...I can't remember, but it's much larger. It means that it will hold more people. For eternity.

 

[gort]

Without Jesus' payment for sins we would ALL deserve eternal separation from God. But Jesus HAS paid for ALL sin....therefore ALL men have been redeemed from the penalty of sin. So even if SOME men must face the punishment of fire, it will not be an eternal separation from God...but a period of chastisment that will bring them to repentance and eventual faith in Christ.

Otherwise, Jesus sacrifice was in vain. It would be saying that He paid for the sins of ALL men, but for most of them it has absolutely no effect....in essence saying that He suffered their punishment for nothing.

Interesting. My neighbor does'nt believe in God or Jesus, and you want to tell me he's saved from Gods wrath?

If the LOF has an end to it, can you show me from Scripture where that end is?

I've asked this question many times to the universalists, yet none can answer.

 

[gort]

Easy to say .. but I was asking about if one could do so if they found they were actually there.

No.. I do not believe that anyone deserves to be eternally tormented.

Is it really "easy to say"??

Have you never been shown by God what your sins are like before a Just and Holy God? A term for it would be 'Holy Spirit conviction'?