Hell is not permanent.

[EchoPneuma]

The Jews believed quite a few things that were not scriptural or Jesus would not have said this.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Yes, and apparently those naughty Jews had done more than a little tinkering with their OT scriptures too. Look at what Jeremiah 8 says about it....

New International Version (NIV)



8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

Hmmmm....so Jeremiah says that the Jewish scribes had "lying pens" and had handled the law "falsely". And these are supposed to be the people we're going to take as the "end all be all" of authority on hell?

Take a look at these two scriptures and tell me what you see.....

Exodus 20:24
" 'Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you.


Jeremiah 7:22
For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

God is saying through Jeremiah that what Exodus 20:24 says is a lie. Then in chapter 8 of Jeremiah He says that the "lying pen" of the scribes has handled the law "falsely".

Interesting, no?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Interesting, no?

Very... i was reading an article earlier this morning that was talking about the sacrifices and Jesus' reaction to them. Some here may find it interesting.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/holy_week/assault_on_blood_sacrifice.htm

 

[KCDAD]

Exodus 20:24
" 'Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you.


Jeremiah 7:22
For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

God is saying through Jeremiah that what Exodus 20:24 says is a lie. Then in chapter 8 of Jeremiah He says that the "lying pen" of the scribes has handled the law "falsely".

Interesting, no?

(rending robe and splashing ashes on my face, but carefully not to get them in my eyes)
Blasphemer! Crucify him!

God does not want your sacrifices... (is that Micah?)

 

[red77]

Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.

any more?

Well i'll add myself to the list as well , i dont think that anyone is deserving of an eternal fire whatsoever so by token of that i have to include myself.........and i dont believe that a Just and Holy God would inflict such a thing anyway, is there actually a point to this question.......?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Very... i was reading an article earlier this morning that was talking about the sacrifices and Jesus' reaction to them. Some here may find it interesting.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/holy_week/assault_on_blood_sacrifice.htm

Good article....and Jeremiah 7 completely backs it up. Look at the whole chapter in context and see what God has to say about the sacrificial system.

 

[red77]

this is a thought that may have been covered already but its been going through my head.....

How is it possible, if the fundamentalists have it right, to conceive of a more loving and merciful God....? If God is the ultimate in love and mercy which would go beyond our own comprehensions than he may yet be more loving and merciful than even the Universalist standpoint here......

Surely a doctrine that promotes ET is restricting God to being merciful and compassionate only to a set number of people, ie those who 'repent and be spared' in this short human existence or those who 'dont repent and be damned'.......

And how could any human ideology/theologydogma or whatever dictate and restrict the love and mercy of a divine being...? it makes no sense to me, a God who spares his creatures torment is more merciful than one that doesnt surely.......? And if mercy outweighs judgement then even more so......? anyway, just a thought.......

 

[EchoPneuma]

Also, here is the Lexicon meaning for the Hebrew word translated "robber" in the OT....I think you will find it interesting as to what it really means.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/6/1143561888-7197.html

 

[timlamb]

I do not mock The Bible, I mock those who use it to further their own unthought out bigotry and hatred.
*We all are using it to support our beliefs, how we interpret it it the only true debate here. You just make a mockery of it and pervert it intill quoting it works for your arguement.

I have great respect for the effort put forth to create and preserve the scriptures. I am thankful for The Celts who preseerved much of Chruch history and tradition after the assaults from the Normans... I have great respect for Martin Luther who publicly questioned the church's domination of thought and interpretation. I have great respect for the Jewish diaspora who guarded and passed down the stories of their elders and families for generations until they could be rejoined into a nation. The survival of the Jewish faith is unabahedly one of man's greatest triumphs.
*You believe the Jewish faith survived by mans doing?


But for you to trivialize it by saying it is literal, and it takes no reason to understand it, and it was given from God in a private dictation lesson is appaulling. It was not written for you rich Western cultures. It was written for Jews and middle eastern 1st century gentiles.
*You say that to believe every word is to trivialise it; I say that makes it extreemly valueable and essential. If it took no reason to understand it, you would understand. I am well aware who it was written for, and by, and about; that is why it is so important to keep it in context and evaluate scripture in light of the entire message the bible.

If you don't understand their culture and language you will never understand the scriptures.
Quoting Jewish Encyclopedias written in what, 1906 New York? Really... That's no different than using the King James English to "quote" Jesus.
*I think you have me confused with Der Alter here.

Faith in a book is not faith in a saviour.
*I have faith in the Word "In the beginning was the word..."

Agree with me on anything? How about this: It was the pen of man that wrote The Bible. In the case of Genesis, it was written many years after the events that are related. In fact it was written at least 2500 years after. (If Exodus took place in 1400 BC and creation as early as 4000 BC...) During that 2500 years the stories of Abraham, Adam, Noah and all were passed ONLY by word of mouth. Can you agree with that? 2500 years! You think that some of the stories survived word for word over all that time? Which ones?

*Yes, it was the pen of man that wrote the bible, but the stories were divinely kept in tact and true. We don't have the bible today because a bunch of sheep hearders swapping stories decided to write a book. God kept His message alive in the hearts and minds of men so that we could have them today, all of them!

 

[Soul Searcher]

Also, here is the Lexicon meaning for the Hebrew word translated "robber" in the OT....I think you will find it interesting as to what it really means.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/6/1143561888-7197.html

Both strongs and BDB are in agreement with the definition given here as well. but we are moving away from the topic though perhaps someone should start a new thread on this subject.

Edit to add: I have started a new thread for this topic for those who may be interested.
http://www.christianforums.com/t2849698-sacrifices.html#post23025285

 

[timlamb]

I did not notice these additional points initially as they were embedded in the balloon portion of the message.

And where exactly could one go to escape the presence of the Lord?
*

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
*Those Psalms are beautiful, they testify to the faith of the writer, God will not desert him though he were surrounded by hell.
2 Thes. 1:7-9
"... This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revieled from heaven in blazing firewith His powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD and from the majesty of His power."
10 is good too, "...on the day He comes to be glorified in His holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed..."

Even in revelations when it speaks of torment it is done in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels.

Who told you this? words are meaningless, a deep heartfelt desire to change is what repentance is all about. And the requirement for forgiveness?
*Repentance begins with admitting you are doing wrong, and are in need of forgiveness. If you don't believe you need forgiveness, you are not likely to ask for it, and approach Jesus witha repentant heart.


Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
*Because these verses would contradict the message of salvation if taken out of context. I believe it is essential to remember that this was a lesson on Holy living for the diciples. I know, you want to take them litteraly because that benifits your belief. If you put the bible in contradiction to itself, you discredit the whole book.


I would think there would be many many questions going through the minds of those who would be condemned for not having known the way.

There will be many thoughts, but there will be no question why they are there, that will be revieled at judgement.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Because these verses would contradict the message of salvation if taken out of context. I believe it is essential to remember that this was a lesson on Holy living for the diciples. I know, you want to take them litteraly because that benifits your belief. If you put the bible in contradiction to itself, you discredit the whole book.
.

This is sad.. I can not even count the times I have heard a Christian discount the sermon on the mount as if it were to apply only to the disciples. This is perhaps the most important message in the entire bible and it gets swept under the rug far to often.

The statement about forgiveness here when taken literally does not contradict anything in the bible that I am aware of. It does however contradict some of the popular doctorines out there.

The thing is [to me it is as plain as the nose on my face] that this very same message is stated over and over and over and over again throughout the bible in many different words and forms and not just in the bible it also appears in most of the worlds religions in one form or another, it even appears in sources outside religion. And no matter how you word it the meaning is always this.

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Do not do unto others that which you would not want done unto you."

I wouldn't even begin to guess just how many times a form of this message occurs in our bible but suffice to say it is many.

Remember Jesus said in this sermon that those who hear and do are wise, those who hear and do not are foolish. Could it possibly be any more clear that we are to treat others as we would be treated? If we do not do this then what benifit is it to us to believe in God?

 

[Jipsah]

the modern Jewish view of hell, etc. is totally irrelevant.

As is the ancient Jewish view. Assuming there was one commonly held view, which there probably was not, it has no real bearing on what Christians believe at all.

 

[red77]

There will be many thoughts, but there will be no question why they are there, that will be revieled at judgement.

Tim, a question, do you believe that this life we have now is a gift from God?

 

[timlamb]

This is sad.. I can not even count the times I have heard a Christian discount the sermon on the mount as if it were to apply only to the disciples. This is perhaps the most important message in the entire bible and it gets swept under the rug far to often.

The statement about forgiveness here when taken literally does not contradict anything in the bible that I am aware of. It does however contradict some of the popular doctorines out there.

The thing is [to me it is as plain as the nose on my face] that this very same message is stated over and over and over and over again throughout the bible in many different words and forms and not just in the bible it also appears in most of the worlds religions in one form or another, it even appears in sources outside religion. And no matter how you word it the meaning is always this.

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Do not do unto others that which you would not want done unto you."

I wouldn't even begin to guess just how many times a form of this message occurs in our bible but suffice to say it is many.

Remember Jesus said in this sermon that those who hear and do are wise, those who hear and do not are foolish. Could it possibly be any more clear that we are to treat others as we would be treated? If we do not do this then what benifit is it to us to believe in God?

I agree, the message is a good one for all to live by. We are not doing unto others very well in these posts sometimes. But you seem to use those lessons from Jesus, to get around a loving faith in the Lord for salvation. You can forgive qall you want, but if it (the forgiveness) does not come from a heart of faith for Jesus, it does not, in it's self, bring salvation.

 

[Merzbow]

Irrelevant! Dead, bone stock irrelevant! I have never said the words aion/aionios were not used in a limited sense, but every universalist here has been screaming over and over and over that the words aion/aionios never, ever meant eternal, forever, unending. Every time the pack of lies definition from hellmakers has been quoted it has only included the limited definition.

And your aidios argument has been repeated several times. Irrelvant. That is a logical fallacy. If there was another word why didn't they use the other word? The N.T. writers used the word they did and the context defines it as eternal, everlasting. See e.g. Rev 14:11, et al.

Oh please. Before, when people claimed that aionios did not have to mean eternal, you quoted dictionaries, highlited your preferred definitions, and claimed that's what it meant. Now when I prove that it is used in the Bible in contexts where it cannot mean eternal, you say that that it still must mean eternal in the other contexts. Why? Because in your OPINION the CONTEXT defines it as eternal. Good, we've made progress. You now no longer defer to the dictionaries to support your argument. We're back on the level of interpretation and philosophy. And in my opinion it is perfectly clear from the universalist passages in the Bible that one is compelled NOT to translate 'aionios' as eternal in any of the passages discussing punishment.

And are you actually claiming that 'aidios' is not an actual Greek word used to mean everlasting? It is used in the BIBLE as such:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=126&version=kjv

It has NO OTHER meaning that eternal and everlasting.

Yes and the ancient Jews were wrong and the entire early church in the 1st 300 years was wrong. It wasn't until the 19th century when rich guys like P.T Barnum, H.G. Well, Edgar R. Burroughs, etc., came out as universalist that anyone got it right.

A bald fallacy. The 'entire' early church includes a large number of enormously influential, early Christian thinkers like Origen and Gregory who were universalists.

I will address your continued misrepresentation of Jewish thought in another post.

 

[timlamb]

Tim, a question, do you believe that this life we have now is a gift from God?

God didn't creat us, for us. He created us for Himself. Just being created could be deamed a gift, but I tend to focus on the gifts I recieve in this life (gifts of the spirit, Joy...ect)
I believe things become a gift upon acceptance. You can attempt to give me a beautiful peice of art work, if I knock it out of your hands and stomp it under foot and walk away I have no gift from you. People who do this with salvation, have not recieved the gift.

 

[red77]

God didn't creat us, for us. He created us for Himself. Just being created could be deamed a gift, but I tend to focus on the gifts I recieve in this life (gifts of the spirit, Joy...ect)
I believe things become a gift upon acceptance. You can attempt to give me a beautiful peice of art work, if I knock it out of your hands and stomp it under foot and walk away I have no gift from you. People who do this with salvation, have not recieved the gift.

well........if God created us for himself......then he could hardly blame us if we havent lived up to his expectations and be deserving of an eternal hell......i mean....how selfish and hostile a picture does that make of God....?

And if this life is a gift from God.....then hell cant exist either because otherwise life isnt a gift..........gifts dont come with conditions attached..........

 

[KCDAD]

*Yes, it was the pen of man that wrote the bible, but the stories were divinely kept in tact and true. We don't have the bible today because a bunch of sheep hearders swapping stories decided to write a book. God kept His message alive in the hearts and minds of men so that we could have them today, all of them!

Your God sure is busy trying to keep us in line. The Jews get no credit for their preservation of their religion, the sheepherders (like David) of the middle east get no credit for sharing their culture... I guess there is no need to pray, God is micro managing everything. "So we could have them today"... what a self centered egotististic point of view. You need to read how our Canon got to be the way it is, how doctrine was preserved through the diaspora and dark ages... who preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls? God or the Essenes?
"Divinely kept intact and true"... that's why they are so consistant... like the flood story contradictions, like the two different stories of creation, like the levitical laws which have been called lies of the scribes... like the two different version of the ten commandments... intact and true... bah... humbug. Do you realkly think this all of the scriptures? Jesus refers to scriptures not in the Canon...

 

[Soul Searcher]

I agree, the message is a good one for all to live by. We are not doing unto others very well in these posts sometimes.

Agreed, I think the key is to do the best you can. I am reminded of something from the didache where it says that if you can bear the full yoke of the Lord then do so but if not then do what you are able.

But you seem to use those lessons from Jesus, to get around a loving faith in the Lord for salvation.

I can see where you might see that but this is not really the case. I do in fact take the messages to heart and it does show me that mercy and forgiveness are very very important. Something I think you may be missing here is that faith without these things is worthless but these things when applied will lead to faith in time. Faith is sometimes said to be a gift from God and what does God ask of us but to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with our God?

You can forgive qall you want, but if it (the forgiveness) does not come from a heart of faith for Jesus, it does not, in it's self, bring salvation.

I did not say that it brings salvation, Jesus does that but Jesus did say that those who forgive men thier trespasses will be forgiven. He also said the merciful shall obtain mercy. He said and did many things, most of which we do not know but his message here seems clear.

Consider these verses from the Gospel of the Nazerines.


15."As I have received the truth, so have I given it to you. Let each receive it according to their light and ability to understand, and don't persecute those who receive it after a different interpretation."

16."For truth is the might of God, and it shall prevail in the end over all errors. But the holy law which I have given is plain for all, and just and good, Let all observe it for the salvation of their souls."

 

[timlamb]

well........if God created us for himself......then he could hardly blame us if we havent lived up to his expectations and be deserving of an eternal hell......i mean....how selfish and hostile a picture does that make of God....?

And if this life is a gift from God.....then hell cant exist either because otherwise life isnt a gift..........gifts dont come with conditions attached..........

It just occured to me that life becomes a gift when we accept it eternaly. I am so glad God didn't make us to follow Him robotically, there is so much joy in willing service, and I believe that willingness brings joy to Him. God put me into existance, I began to live when I chose to live for Him.
Gifts are not conditional, but there are conditions under which we accept gifts. We cannot fully embrace a gift if we have no faith in the giver, that the gift is given freely and is in our best interest. If we niether need nor want the gift, there is no acceptance. In this cace all those apply. We must have faith in Jesus, we must want eternity with God, and we must accept and acknowledge that we need the gift, (humble ourselves before the Lord).
Hey, you cleared that up for me. The first life is not the gift, although I am glad He did creat us, and I am thankful for it.
The gift of life is the life eternal, which I have through acceptance by faith. Thanks