Hell is not permanent.

[bigfishing]

Hell is not permanent.

Please read the following verses of Bible
carefully.

1. Their worm does not die and the fire is not
quenched (Mk 9:44, 46, 48).

2. These shall be punished with everlasting
destruction from he presence of the Lord and from the
glory of His power (2 Thes 1:9).

3. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and
ever (Rev. 14:11).

From the above verses, it is crystal clear that the
hell is permanent.

 

[RichWh1]

1. Their worm does not die and the fire is not
quenched (Mk 9:44, 46, 48).

2. These shall be punished with everlasting
destruction from he presence of the Lord and from the
glory of His power (2 Thes 1:9).

3. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and
ever (Rev. 14:11).

From the above verses, it is crystal clear that the
hell is permanent.

I have to agree with you on that. The Bible makes it quite clear that punishment is forever and Hell, while it is called the grave, is the first death. The second death has no hades. but Gehenna..

Yours in Christ

RichWh1

 

[intricatic]

Yeah, I always find it amusing when people try to say that Hell is just some temporal cleansing parlor for people who are unrepentant.

 

[Abiel]

Yeah, I always find it amusing when people try to say that Hell is just some temporal cleansing parlor for people who are unrepentant.

amusing eh?

 

[timlamb]

amusing eh?

Psalm 37:13 says the Lord Laughs at the wicked, do the foolish make him angry or chuckle.
To teach that hell is not permenant, or worse yet, fun, is at least misguided and could be construed as wicked, and there fore, laughable. Doesn't sound funny though, does it?
timlamb

 

[timlamb]

Ekletos, I don't think I get what you want to prove. Are you saying there is no eternal damnation? If you don't believe Jesus died to save us from eternal separation from God, then what does that cross by your name mean? You are working way to hard to disprove the bible. Put that effort into looking at why things were written
God says there is an eternal life, the only question is where you spend it. I feel eternity without God, will be hell, now matter how you spell it.
timlamb

 

[Jipsah]

Yeah, I always find it amusing when people try to say that Hell is just some temporal cleansing parlor for people who are unrepentant.

How much more entertaiing to believe that those who don't believe correctly (as we do) will be roasted screaming throughout all eternity, and that their finite sins deserve infnite punishment.

How much better to believe in a God Who, rather than sending people to hell to be reformed and then let out, sends them there to be tortured forever? After all, He's the God Whose mercy endures forever, right?

 

[Jipsah]

Are you saying there is no eternal damnation?

I allus thought that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. You saying that's wrong?

You are working way to hard to disprove the bible.

I just quoted the Bible on the matter. Would you like to disprove that part?

Put that effort into looking at why things were written God says there is an eternal life, the only question is where you spend it.

Scripture doesn't say that, does it?

 

[timlamb]

I allus thought that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. You saying that's wrong?

I just quoted the Bible on the matter. Would you like to disprove that part?

Scripture doesn't say that, does it?

I thought I was talking to Ekletos, now I am answering to Jipsur, that's ok, I'll explain myself to anyone.
Yes, I believe we recieve eternal life through Jesus, and the option is eternal death. Just as the temporary body dies and yet exists temporarily useless and void, I believe the eternal soul, without salvation, separated from God, dies, as in becoming useless and void. That would burn like fire, being usless, and void of love and joy for eternity.
No, you are giving yours, and others, interpretation of the bible.
Yes, the scripture says there is eternal life. It also makes quite clear to me that the only choices are to believe and live with God, or deny Him and spend eternity seperated from Him. And since God is all that is good and beautiful and loving, without Him will be misery beyond imagining, or Gehenna, or Hell, or, eternal death.
timlamb

 

[Cleany]

Hell is not permanent.

Please read the following verses of Bible
carefully.

1. Their worm does not die and the fire is not
quenched (Mk 9:44, 46, 48).

2. These shall be punished with everlasting
destruction from he presence of the Lord and from the
glory of His power (2 Thes 1:9).

3. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and
ever (Rev. 14:11).

From the above verses, it is crystal clear that the
hell is permanent.

let me speculate on some other possibilities.

• you are reading into the text what you want to believe or have been told
• the bible is not meant as a technical manual for matters of eternal existance
• the text has been distorted by those who recorded it
• the text is not recorded accurately
• some of the meaning of the text is metaphorical
• these are fable-like lessons
• the nature of the bible is not as you think it
• you are not being clear minded

now im not saying that all of those things are true, just speculating that it would, perhaps, be responsible to be sure that none of those things were true, before proclaiming that billions will die at the hands of god.

you wouldnt want to look silly would you?

 

[EchoPneuma]

The bible says:

Luke 19:10

• King James Version (KJV)
  For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
  New International Version (NIV)
  For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

I believe it. I don't believe Jesus came to seek and then LOSE what was already lost....I believe what is said in Luke...that He came to seek AND TO SAVE what was lost...not part of what was lost....but what was lost.

Yet, I know punishment and wrath from God is real.

Therefore, the only way I can reconcile these two things is to believe that the punishment is somehow restorative and salvific. Those who believe in Christ don't have to endure this wrath of God.

That is why Paul says to Timothy:

1 Timothy 4:10

• New International Version (NIV)
  (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Jipsah]

I thought I was talking to Ekletos

If you thought it was a private conversation you were mistaken.

now I am answering to Jipsur

Jipsah, thanks. It means "deacon" in Korean.

Yes, I believe we recieve eternal life through Jesus, and the option is eternal death.

So much for an eternal hell, then, correct?

That would burn like fire, being usless, and void of love and joy for eternity.

You're right, dead folks don't have much joy. Or anything else, for that matter.

No, you are giving yours, and others, interpretation of the bible.

I gave you a direct quote. "The wages of sin is death." It doesn't say eternal torment, it says death.

Yes, the scripture says there is eternal life.

That it does.

It also makes quite clear to me that the only choices are to believe and live with God, or deny Him and spend eternity seperated from Him.

Once again, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

And since God is all that is good and beautiful and loving, without Him will be misery beyond imagining

Not if one is dead.

 

[timlamb]

For people who think God loves us to much to let choose our own eternity, you are sure angry. The semon on the mount is full of ways to go to hell. In the whole bible there is only one way to heaven. Mathew 10:28 is pretty specific about suffering in hell. Jesus died to make forgiveness possable, we still must choose it. If you believe there is no hell, then why is it so important to you that I believe it. I think I shall focus on getting to heaven, God is loving, but He is also just.
You do not offer your opinions with love, you shout them with defiance, that sounds more like mans wisdom than knowledge gained through the Holy Spirit.
I won't say you haven't done your home work, but I'm not buying it.
Blessings,
timlamb

 

[timlamb]

Ekletos, what makes you think that God needs you to defend Him, and if you can become so indignant over what you percieve is a misrepresentation of the scripture, why can't you believe that a perfect and righteous God would turn away those whom he created and Loved when they scoff and defile His name, and choose evil.
So you think God took away Jonah's free will. I think God just took a man with a good heart but little faith and made an example out of him for us all to see.
You accuse others of manipulating scripture, then you use half of John 9:3 to dispute origional sin, I read there that Jesus is making the point that sin did not cause that mans blindness.
There, I disputed something you said. It won't matter, you are not going to change your mind because I disagree with you, any more than you are changing my mind. I am sure neither one of us has the whole thing figured out, but we are so far apart we don't even have any neutral ground to begin to understand each other.
I did give you scripture that I believe backs up what I say. The Sermon on the Mount, and Mathew 10:28. But you will read it differently, so again, what is the point.
You say that Christians believe out of fear. Are you telling me that you have never met anyone who just loves Jesus. I, personally, Love the Lord and I want to spend eternity with Him, but fear of hell didn't bring that about. I was a smoke um if you got um, pass me another beer good old boy. I feared my wife more than hell. But the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to what a waste my life was and through prayer I found strength to conquer my addictions and I serve the Lord for who He is. People don't stay faithful to God out of fear. People who think they are going to church and being good to stay out of hell are only fooling them selves. You don't stay true to someone you don't love.
You are right, God doesn't need our money, we are to give, only when we can give freely and with joy. We give because we are following Gods mandate to take the Gospel to the world.
You have dumped so much information on me in the forum that I honestly don't have time to research every thing you said, you have done your homework.
If you would like to continue to debate this on a less overwhelming level, maybe we should do it by email, or at least start another thread, or maybe we should look into the debate forum. I don't know what good it will do, it will probably only serve to make us both more resolved in our beliefs.
I've rambled long enough, let us both pray that truth will prevail.
timlamb

 

[OldShepherd]

[SIZE=+1]*Mod Hat

On!*​

Address the topic not other members. If your post has the personal pronouns, "you, your, you're," etc., it is probably violating forum rules.[/SIZE]

 

[timlamb]

[SIZE=+1]*Mod Hat

On!*​

Address the topic not other members. If your post has the personal pronouns, "you, your, you're," etc., it is probably violating forum rules.[/SIZE]

Thank you Old Sheperd, this debate was getting a bit personal, and off topic. I suggested we move this to the debate forum, would this kind of banter be acceptable there?

 

[timlamb]

Ekletos, Jipsah, the book of Revelation exposes much more than we could ever understand about the things of eternity. I like Revelation 6:7and8.
In case any of us think ouseves to wise, read 1 Corinthians 1:18 - 25.

 

[timlamb]

Tim Lamb I thought it would be good to let you know that.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (Rev 1:1)​

First of all, in verse 1 that Christ, through John, makes it very clear what the book of Revelation is revealing. It's revealing Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with end time prophecy as we so often hear today among Christendom. Why do so many pastors have to continue to fabricate the answer when the truth is, was, and will continue to be right before their very eyes? In the original Greek, the word revelation means 'disclosure' so when you read the book of Revelation, view it as the full disclosure of the who, what, where, when, why, and how of Jesus Christ. You say you want to know Jesus…we'll He has thoroughly dissected Himself and His plan for each and every one of us right here in Revelation and I pray that as you read on, He will give you the eyes to see Him and the ears to hear His voice. For each and every person who lives, has lived, or will live in this present age, Christ has given us this book to reveal not only WHO Jesus Christ is/was/will be, but also WHAT Jesus Christ is/was/will be doing, and WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW Jesus is/was/will be accomplishing all that God has entrusted to Him. It is through the revelation of Jesus Christ that we understand what the gospel of Christ is really all about. Paul confirms this in the book of Galatians when He says, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Gal 1:11-12)

The book of Revelation was SIGNIFIED unto John. The word signified means to put into signs and symbols so in other words, the entire book of Revelation was given to John and is given to us in signs and symbols. What this means is that in order to understand it, Christ must first free us from our natural or carnal minds and tendencies. Why? "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Rom 8:7) and "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14) It is only through Christ that we can ever hope to see spiritually into the true meaning behind these signs and symbols. "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;" (1Pe 1:13)

Eklatos, Yes, now my eyes are open, no end times prophecy in the revelation to John. Dismantle the book of Reveltion, and eternal damnation and Hell go away. The judgement, the book of life, the lake of fire for ever and ever, all revealed to John, and written in this book.
"It's revealing Jesus Christ."
The entire bible reveals Jesus, the Christ.
Rev 1:8 "'I am the Alpha and Omega." says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.'"
The thousand year reign of Christ
The devil, the Beast, and the false prophet, all thrown into the lake of burning sulfur where,"they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
Revelation chapter 21:5-8;
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
He said to me; "It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, The Beginning and the End. To Him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars --their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 20:12;
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
Rev 20:15;
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Forgiven by the blood Jesus shed on the cross, found in the book of life.
Those not accepting forgiveness, not in the book of life, all their sin, still on record, judged, thrown into the lake of fire.
SAD, BUT FARE, AND TRUE.

NEW HEAVEN
NEW EARTH
RIVER OF LIFE
TREE OF LIFE
CHRIST RETURNS TO REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER.
Sounds like the end of this age, of this world, ERERNITY.
Sounds prophetic to me!
With all my heart, I hope to see you all there,
timlamb

 

[kepp]

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." -1 Peter 3:18-20

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." -Revelation 2:11

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." -Revelation 20:4-6

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." -Revelation 20:11-15

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

I don't know what I really want to add to the "debate" besides the opinion that the Bible reads very clearly on this point to me. Romans 6:23 speaks of the "second death" - spiritual, not physical. To say that our spirits were not everlasting would be to invalidate much of God's word and to say that there is no everlasting judgement would do the same to God's justice and love.

 

[Merzbow]

I can never understand how people can believe that a just God could send anybody to Hell to be tortured for eternity. To even imagine that people could sincerely think that makes me physically ill. Therefore I'm either a Christan Universalist or an Annihilationist (haven't decided yet). The myth of eternal hell is Satan's big lie.