Hell is not permanent.

[Havahope]

It is my opinion, from scripture, that any referance to the children of God, is refering to those who are saved by faith.

tim, we are not saved by faith. We are saved through faith. Faith is a state of the mind. It is the channel through which we get hold of, or see our salvation. Faith does not give us the salvation. It is the means by which we see or realize it. And because one has no faith towards their salvation, does not mean that they do not have it.

God's children will be made Christ like when we become sinless in His presence, in heaven.

And that is purely speculation on your part. You have no scripture to back that up.

no one will take a Christ like body to hell.

Then what is the body like that they will they take to hell?

IOW, where is the scripture which describes this kind of, or the third kind of body?

 

[gort]

duh - The whole point of the post is that there are only two bodies that are scripturally taught. One is the earthy body and the other is the spiritual body. (1Cor. 15:44) The only way anyone can have a spiritual body is if it is through and by Jesus Christ. Jesus is the resurrection, and He is the life. (John 11:25)

Yes, it's written that there are 2 bodies. But what about those, as my question asked, of those who are NOT in Christ Jesus, NOt found in the book of life? You seem to assume that all will have a ressurected body like Christs, which is not the case. That is, if any, are not found in the book of life.

 

[gort]

Yes words are cheap.

Yes I have and more. I have felt the sorrow of God, I have shared his tears and his joy. I have felt his love throughout my life.

Sometimes I doubt, sometimes I don't understand but deep down I have always known that he is always here in my heart, gently nudging me int he right direction.

Mere words can not describe my true thoughts here so I will leave it at this.

Good. Then don't infer that my words are cheap, and I won't infer that your words are cheap and we'll do just fine.

 

[gort]

As I just outlined in another thread, 'aionios' can also mean eternal in the sense of coming from the nature of the divine, or in the sense of timeless. This is in fact how Plato used it. But never is it used where it can only mean an everlasting duration of time. Look at the passages you quote - one mentions 'eternal' sin. Eternal is obviously being used here in the sense of the divine - that is, a sin that has Godly consequences. A single 'sin' is an action that has a beginning and end, and thus cannot be everlasting - although the consquences might be (but not in this passage, read on)..

While not an expert in greek, and not even a novice, I do understand that a word has a meaning in its context. In the passage I quoted I see a sin that is unforgiveable, and never forgiven. Neither in this age or the next.

One can consider the so-called 'eternal punishment' mentioned in Mt. 25:46 to mean a corrective punishment, time-limited, with everlasting consequences (being returned to God). (The word used for punishment here actually means corrective punishment in the primary definition.) Or eternal in the sense of just being from the divine. Or in the literal sense of 'age-abiding' or 'age-lasting', although that weakens that parallelism of the verse. But not as 'endless duration'.

Jesus seems clearly to say that it is the one unforgiveable sin, never to be forgiven.

And these verses are a bad choice for you to make anyways; from what I read even many conservative evangelicals take them not to mean that there is literally a sin that we cannot be forgiven of, but that the sin of 'blaspheming against the Holy Spirit' really means the sin of denying God's forgiveness. Obviously as long as one deny's God's ability to forgive, one cannot be forgiven of anything, so the sin is recursive in that regard. But once one repents and asks for forgiveness, the ability to be forgiven is restored.

I've read quite the opposite of what you state. Many do believe that the blasphemy of the HS means denying Gods forgiveness. Which has no forgiveness in this world or the next. There is much debate as to the meaning of the blasphemy.

I think of it just as it's written, a blasphemy against the HS.


anyway, the penalty for this clearly shows there is never forgiveness, and it's shows the word aionion in it's context.

To go further, aionian is also used for everlasting torment. Just as aionian is used for everlasting life.

There is no context in Scripture to show another age after the judgement and those not found in the Lambs book of life, and those not found in it, cast into the LOF.

If there's not context to show aionion, it means forever, as far as we know.

 

[gort]

Can u imagine eternity Daneel....? If so you must be the only one i know of who can.......you're right in as far as God has the ultimate say in justice, i perceive it to be far more merciful than you which is the difference

This is where your perceptions fail you miserably, as try to judge my heart in these matters on a internet debate forum.

It does not surprise me that people through history have been fascinated by the doctrine of hell, there are books i've read chronicling the various graphic descriptions of such a place through the ages, and for the most part these were the twisted images of the darkest side of the human psyche.....unfortunately it still seems to be the case today......

I've already said that i dont think i or anyone else is deserving of an eternal place of torment, universalists have the 'chunks' to say that because they dont believe in an eternal hell, eternal life is a 'gift' as you say....as i've already mentioned at some point, gifts dont come with conditions attached to them and one day i believe that gift will be received by all, once they know its being offered to them,

and you or anyone else is free to pull this apart as you wish, the bottom line is I believe in a far more loving and merciful God than the ones the 'hellthumpers' believe in....i'm yet to see any warmth/empathy/love or compassion from any of the people here who tout ET......and i wonder why that is.........yet all these things are integral it seems to the poeple here who dont subscribe to it.........and i wonder why that is also......

Remind me to write a 1000 word essay everytime somebody posts diatribe like this, who assumes first by shooting and never asking questions. I'll include 8x10 glossy photos with writing on the back, dutifully detailing every microscopic piece of my heart that trusts in God to save those that are lost, who is willing that all come to repentence and know Him through the beloved Son.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Jesus seems clearly to say that it is the one unforgiveable sin, never to be forgiven.

fyi. This does not imply what the punishment for such may be however. If you owe me $10 and I forgive you then you need pay me nothing. If I do not forgive you then you must pay me $10. After the debt is paid there is nothing to be forgiven.

I think of it just as it's written, a blasphemy against the HS.

What do you interpret blasphemy against the HS to actually mean? Could you give an example or two?

anyway, the penalty for this clearly shows there is never forgiveness, and it's shows the word aionion in it's context..

As in the first part above never forgiveness does not equate to eternally ongoing punishment just that there is a debt to me paid that will not be forgiven and therefore must be paid.

Another thing to consider is did the offender know what he/she was doing. It would seem that only a believer could intentionally and knowingly commit blasphempy of the HS.

Jesus says the severant who knows the will of the master and does it not will be beaten with many stripes but the one who knoweth not and doeth not will be beaten with few stripes.

Soemthing to think about.

 

[red77]

This is where your perceptions fail you miserably, as try to judge my heart in these matters on a internet debate forum.






Remind me to write a 1000 word essay everytime somebody posts diatribe like this, who assumes first by shooting and never asking questions. I'll include 8x10 glossy photos with writing on the back, dutifully detailing every microscopic piece of my heart that trusts in God to save those that are lost, who is willing that all come to repentence and know Him through the beloved Son.

i'm sorry but its the truth as i've seen it.........its not a diatribe and never intended as such, i take no pleasure in saying it either, all posts i've seen by those who tout ET have had none of the empathy etc as those who dont.........

 

[Soul Searcher]

Good. Then don't infer that my words are cheap, and I won't infer that your words are cheap and we'll do just fine.

Fair enough but let me ask you a question as I asked someone else.

If you one day find yourself in this eternal hell do you believe you will accept this fate willingly? Will you say praise God for his justice for I truly deserve to be here?

 

[timlamb]

tim, we are not saved by faith. We are saved through faith. Faith is a state of the mind. It is the channel through which we get hold of, or see our salvation. Faith does not give us the salvation. It is the means by which we see or realize it. And because one has no faith towards their salvation, does not mean that they do not have it.
***Galatians 2:16 "... knowing that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." The word by is used in both the NIV and NKJV. To argue "by" or "through" is nit picky and arguementative. Faith is as much a state of mind as love, hope, joy, and truth; where they exist, they produce fruit. Faith is belief and trust, the fruits that bring salvation. We don't have salvation because we believe we have it, we have savation because we believe in Christ Jesus, and thust His word.


And that is purely speculation on your part. You have no scripture to back that up.
****As paul wrote to the believers in Corinth, "...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body....And just as we have born the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven."
He is talking to believers, about what is to take place. Non believers have a spirit, but will not be made Christ like.



Then what is the body like that they will they take to hell?

IOW, where is the scripture which describes this kind of, or the third kind of body?

I think there is some confusion here. We have earthly bodies, we have spirits, and those entering the kingdom of heaven recieve heavenly bodies. We are made Christ like in the spirit, which will inhabit our new bodies.
I will admit to being a little confused, however scripture mentions nothing of the judged recieving any changes after death.

 

[timlamb]

Fair enough but let me ask you a question as I asked someone else.

If you one day find yourself in this eternal hell do you believe you will accept this fate willingly? Will you say praise God for his justice for I truly deserve to be here?

be aware daneel, he is only posting this question to use it against you, he is baiting you!!!

 

[katallasso]

The more I read the different ideas of what people believe hell and the afterlife are, the more I am so glad our salvation does not depend on either one.

Isa 64:4For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

 

[Soul Searcher]

be aware daneel, he is only posting this question to use it against you, he is baiting you!!!

I would not call it baiting. It is a question and a valid one. As I recall you did not give a direct answer when it was asked of you.

The point of the question is that unless someone can honestly say that they are willing to accept the fate of eternity in hell and praise God for his justice in sending them and keeping them there that the statement "I or we deserve to go there" is meaningless as the person does nto believe they will go there and if they do would change thier mind about how deserving it is.

So I guess you could say that I am baiting... for the truth.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The more I read the different ideas of what people believe hell and the afterlife are, the more I am so glad our salvation does not depend on either one.

Amen to that ..

 

[Havahope]

Yes, it's written that there are 2 bodies. But what about those, as my question asked, of those who are NOT in Christ Jesus, NOt found in the book of life? You seem to assume that all will have a ressurected body like Christs, which is not the case. That is, if any, are not found in the book of life.

And once again your old stand-by; the book of Revelation, which contains what the person saw in a VISION comes into play here. Nothing in a vision is real. If those things seen in a vision were real, then it would no longer be a VISION, but it would be a reality.

The "book of life" was NOT a literal book with names of those who are in Christ Jesus written in it. What do you suppose? that God's memory is so faulty that He has to write names down so that He will not forget who is saved, and who is not saved. LOL!

And also, where in the book of Revelation do we find about what happens with those who are "alive and remain" at His coming.
Rev. 20 is all about the dead being resurrected. i.e. ..... "Rev. 20: 11. "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

No, I don't think it is I who does the assuming here. And I am still looking for a scriptural explanation for the third kind of body; one that will withstand eternity under the duress of the eternal torment hell.

 

[Havahope]

The more I read the different ideas of what people believe hell and the afterlife are, the more I am so glad our salvation does not depend on either one.

Isa 64:4For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

 

[timlamb]

The more I read the different ideas of what people believe hell and the afterlife are, the more I am so glad our salvation does not depend on either one.

Isa 64:4For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

well said Kat!!AMEN

 

[timlamb]

I would not call it baiting. It is a question and a valid one. As I recall you did not give a direct answer when it was asked of you.

The point of the question is that unless someone can honestly say that they are willing to accept the fate of eternity in hell and praise God for his justice in sending them and keeping them there that the statement "I or we deserve to go there" is meaningless as the person does nto believe they will go there and if they do would change thier mind about how deserving it is.

So I guess you could say that I am baiting... for the truth.

As I recall, I found the question pointless "ain't going to happen" but answered it honestly. It is so pointless, because if we truely praise God in all things, we are His children.

 

[Soul Searcher]

As I recall, I found the question pointless "ain't going to happen" but answered it honestly. It is so pointless, because if we truely praise God in all things, we are His children.

You did give an answer, true. Not a direct answer but an answer none the less.

You say you find it pointless because it ain't gonna happen by the same token I say it is pointless for a believer to say they/we deserve to burn in hell for all eternity because as you say it ain't gonna happen.

Therefore the statement that we deserve to go to hell made by one who is fully convinced that it won't happen to them is cheap and meaningless.

 

[Havahope]

I think there is some confusion here. We have earthly bodies, we have spirits, and those entering the kingdom of heaven recieve heavenly bodies.

Correction! The scriptures teach that there is an earthy body and there is a spiritual body.

I have already entered the kingdom of heaven, but I still have on the same body of earth that I had before I entered the kingdom of heaven. (The kingdom of heaven is here and now, and it is right here on this earth. It has been for some 2000 years. - Remember what the Lord taught His disciples that they should pray for - "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven." He also taught the people - "Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand )

We are made Christ like in the spirit, which will inhabit our new bodies.

Scripture please?

. . . . . . however scripture mentions nothing of the judged recieving any changes after death.

So if there are no changes to the earthy body after its natural or physical death, then how can it be resurrected to be judged?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Scripture does talk about deliverance to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit can be saved. 1 Cor 5:5

see also 1 Cor 15:47 - 57