Hell is not permanent.

[Soul Searcher]

His diciples gathered around and He began to teach them (the disciples).
The crowd heard and were amazed; but all those words don't change a thing without faith in, and love for, the Lord.
Those are great and important words, but were never a promise of salvation without faith.

Well all I can say is that if Jesus said the merciful shall obtain mercy I believe that the merciful shall indeed obtain mercy. I do not mean to imply that this means salvation of the wicked but it is crystal clear that a merciful man will not be treated without mercy such as in begin cast into hell to be tortured for all eternity.

This is just one of many such saying of Jesus that confirm my point. Also as others have pointed out there will come a day when all mankind will believe.

 

[KCDAD]

Well all I can say is that if Jesus said the merciful shall obtain mercy I believe that the merciful shall indeed obtain mercy. I do not mean to imply that this means salvation of the wicked but it is crystal clear that a merciful man will not be treated without mercy such as in begin cast into hell to be tortured for all eternity.

This is just one of many such saying of Jesus that confirm my point. Also as others have pointed out there will come a day when all mankind will believe.

No this is a GREAT point... Mercy sure, they'll get that, but they won't be forgiven. It's like they will still be tortured for eternity, but time will go by really fast for them and really slow for the rest.

 

[timlamb]

Echo said:

No they don't. That's not what they say at all. That's what you WANT them to say. They don't say that the gospel was preached to those people when they were alive, but they are now dead. It says that it was preached TO THE DEAD. It couldn't be clearer. But since this doesn't fit in with your doctrines, you must change the meaning of what it says. Why don't you just take that verse for what it plainly says and incorporate it into your beliefs instead of changing it to fit in with your doctrines?




No you don't take it in context with all the other scriptures. You change what it says to suit your beliefs. You ASSUME that because after death comes judgement, that the judgement is IMMEDIATE....but it doesn't say that does it? God may have had those dead people wait UNTIL they heard to gospel preached to them BEFORE He judged them.

You don't know. You just ASSUME.

But the verse SAYS that the gospel WAS PREACHED TO THOSE WHO WERE DEAD.

How do you know if those dead people aren't judged, chastised, and then again given a chance to repent?

You don't. But you refuse to believe it because it doesn't do along with your doctrine.

THe bible says that ALL MEN will be reconciled back to God through Christ.

You don't believe this either I guess?

wow, you sound angry, don't take it so personal.

I went through this one about 100 posts ago. All men, as in, all nationalities of men, will be reconciled; but not all men of every nationality.
Again, try a new approach.

 

[timlamb]

Well all I can say is that if Jesus said the merciful shall obtain mercy I believe that the merciful shall indeed obtain mercy. I do not mean to imply that this means salvation of the wicked but it is crystal clear that a merciful man will not be treated without mercy such as in begin cast into hell to be tortured for all eternity.

This is just one of many such saying of Jesus that confirm my point. Also as others have pointed out there will come a day when all mankind will believe.

Mercy is in Christ and must be acepted by faith.

 

[Jipsah]

Matt. 7: 14; but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few will find it.

Take note of the previous verse:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat

Note that He didn't say that the broad gate led to eternal torture or everlasting life in torment, but to destruction.

No mention of unending torture in the other verses you cited, either.

Why do you reckon that is?

 

[red77]

Something just occurred to me for what its worth.......

I wonder how many people who without any knowledge of the bible/dogmas doctrines etc who, when hearing that there's a God who 'righteously' inflicts eternal punishment on human beings say 'Oh, yeah, that makes sense, very fair, justice is served' ,or i wonder how many would actually be horrified and couldnt make sense of it.......

It is organized religion which instills this insidious message in people, the church has used it as a control for centuries......
back in the 'dark' ages it was a convenient way of keeping people in line when the church had so much power over people, it was easier to keep people in check with threatening damnation because they'd be less likely to steal omeones ox or something......!
Yet these are supposed to be enlightened times and this 'fear factory' is still caught up in peoples lives,
love is more powerful than fear and i for one am glad i got out of the darkness that was the traditional church

 

[Soul Searcher]

Mercy is in Christ and must be acepted by faith.

Sorry but mercy does not need to be accepted to be given. For example if I see something wrong that may warrant me beating someone to a bloody pulp and I choose not to do so then I am in fact showing mercy, whether or not the object of my mercy accepts it or is even aware of it changes nothing.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Those are the questions we have been dealing with for 600 posts. I could put an answer to every question, but it would not matter.
You dare to demand me find scripture to disprove you. Scripture deals with truth, it says little about fantacy.

Come now, there is no way you could have believed, after all my posts, that I believed in purification and repentance after death, except that you read me the way you read the bible.

ask something new, I am tired of repeating myself.

I know you don't believe it.....but you've done nothing to show biblically how it isn't true.

You keep changing what scriptures say to suit yourself. You are the one dealing in fantasy.

And just repeating youself over and over doesn't make it true.

Show me ONE scripture that says that God is finished trying to reconcile with a soul when it sheds the body...

JUST ONE.

 

[KCDAD]

wow, you sound angry, don't take it so personal.

I went through this one about 100 posts ago. All men, as in, all nationalities of men, will be reconciled; but not all men of every nationality.
Again, try a new approach.

Wow, that's a stretch... better not put words in God's mouth.

 

[EchoPneuma]

wow, you sound angry, don't take it so personal.

I went through this one about 100 posts ago. All men, as in, all nationalities of men, will be reconciled; but not all men of every nationality.
Again, try a new approach.

Boy, you're amazing. Now you arbitrarily change "all men" to "all NATIONALITIES of men". Did you get a divine revelation that gave you authority to change the word of God?

You are the one who needs a new approach.

Paul says the gospel was preached to THE DEAD....but you say it doesn't really mean the dead....but those who were alive and then died.

God says all men will be reconciled back to Him....but you say it means all nationalities of men, not really all men.

Jesus says God is kind to the ungodly and wicked....but you say that God is going to be very very UNKIND to the ungodly and wicked by burning them for eternity.

Shall I go on......

I think it's pretty obvious who is taking the bible in context for what it really says and who is dismantling it to suit their own doctrines.

 

[katallasso]

Grrrrrrr

 

[katallasso]

opps

 

[timlamb]

Take note of the previous verse:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat

Note that He didn't say that the broad gate led to eternal torture or everlasting life in torment, but to destruction.

No mention of unending torture in the other verses you cited, either.

Why do you reckon that is?

OK, so we know that the way to heaven is narrow, everyone else goes somewhere, gee, how many options do we have?

 

[timlamb]

I know you don't believe it.....but you've done nothing to show biblically how it isn't true.

You keep changing what scriptures say to suit yourself. You are the one dealing in fantasy.

And just repeating youself over and over doesn't make it true.

Show me ONE scripture that says that God is finished trying to reconcile with a soul when it sheds the body...

JUST ONE.

Wow, this is awesome, hebrews chapter 11, the faith chapter.
Heb. 11:6 "and without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

But hear this:
Hebrews 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enimies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercey on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severly do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay"; and again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here is a good one;
2 Peter 3:3-9
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "where is this coming you promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation. But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The lord is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

"being kept for the day of judgement and distruction of ungodly men".

there is one I haven't used before. That is alot of good reading.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Contradicts your doctrinal interpretation of Scripture, anyway. Let's face it, in the end you've got a half dozen verses max that support your position, and a ton that don't You have to declare Saint Paul to be wrong when he told us that "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life" because you believe that the curse of God is eternal life under torture. The verses that you adduce to support the idea of eternal torment can be, and are, understood to mean a period of torment, not an eternity of it. That position happens to be consistent with the Scriptures that seem to contradict the notion of eternal torment (hereinafter "ET").

In the beginning was the doctrine, and the doctrine was both weakly formed and strongly held; built, as it were, on interpretive sand. And that's the problem, the doctrine comes first, and the Bible must be made to go along. So you base your arguments on a handful of probably ill-interpreted Scriptures and a lot of arm waving, in the process setting at naught all the rest of the Bible and the evidence of human conscience that argues to the contrary. To cap it all off you accuse those who don't embrace the doctrine of disbelieving the Bible. That's take a lot of chutzpah if nothing else[/SIZE].

In the end I have a half dozen verses? You have not been reading my posts. I have posted Jewish sources citing more than 30 O.T. passages supporting their belief in a hell/Gehenna of eternal punishment, long before the Christian era.

In the end universalism has 20+/- out-of-context verses, ALL from the epistles, NONE spoken by Jesus. Most of which have been refuted.

If universal reconciliation was true Jesus would have clearly stated it. Instead Jesus always states just the opposite.

And I have posted 28 passages spoken by Jesus, addressing eternal punishment, which neither you nor any other universalist has even dared address.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22940336&postcount=494

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22894158#post22894158

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22400715&postcount=79

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22940336#post22940336

Jewish Encyclopedia - Gehenna and Eschatology – eternal hell and punishment.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22892112&postcount=384

Aion/aionios multiple sources, NASB Hebrew/Aramaic Dictionaries, Thayer’s, Vines Expository Dictionary, Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the N.T. based on Semantic Domains, TDNT, Lidell-Scott-Scott-Jones, Strong’s, Plato, Aristotle, Philo, UBS Greek Dictionary, BAGD Greek English Lexicon, NIDNTT.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22350181&postcount=27

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22350252&postcount=28

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22350181&postcount=35

Jewish Encyclopedia Gehenna Sheol Olam

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22400791&postcount=80

Aion/aionios Liddell-Scott-Jones

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22989980#post22989980

JE- Resurrection

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22481734#post22481734

God’s stated will not done, Jeremiah

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22967982&postcount=516

 

[EchoPneuma]

Wow, this is awesome, hebrews chapter 11, the faith chapter.
Heb. 11:6 "and without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

Ok, and where in this verse does it say anything about eternal punishment, no chance for repentance after death, or anything else I asked about? It doesn't. Strike ONE.

But hear this:
Hebrews 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enimies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercey on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severly do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay"; and again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Notice it says "God will judge HIS PEOPLE." Hmmm this is talking about HIS people....not unbelievers. It also doesn't say anything about eternal punishment and no chance to repent after death. It says there will be punishment, there will be a consuming fire that will consume God's enemies....BTW you do know that the bible says "our GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE" don't you?

Strike TWO.

Here is a good one;
2 Peter 3:3-9
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "where is this coming you promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation. But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men.

Still nothing about eternal punishment and no chance to repent after death. It talks about destruction of ungodly men. This was talking about the destruction that came in AD70 when all that generation of ungodly men who crucified Jesus were judged and destroyed.The Jewish "heaven and earth" came to an end at that time.

Strike THREE. You're out.

.

That is alot of good reading.

Yes, apparently you enjoy reading about what you preceive to be passages concerning eternal torment of the lost.

I'm still waiting for one scripture that says that there is no chance after death to be reconciled back to God. That once you die.....that is it.....go straight to hell do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

Care to try again?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Ok, and where in this verse does it say anything about eternal punishment, no chance for repentance after death, or anything else I asked about? It doesn't. Strike ONE.[/SIZE]

Logical fallacy, argument from silence, argument from ignorance. If something is not known to be false then you assume it to be true. It can't be proved there are not little green men on Mars so it must be true.

[SIZE=-1]This was talking about the destruction that came in AD70 when all that generation of ungodly men who crucified Jesus were judged and destroyed.The Jewish "heaven and earth" came to an end at that time. [/SIZE]

RUBBISH! That is the worst scripture twisting I have ever seen. Prove this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Show us one verse where the Jews thought anything that might be destroyed by man, was their "heaven."

[SIZE=-1]I'm still waiting for one scripture that says that there is no chance after death to be reconciled back to God. That once you die.....that is it.....go straight to hell do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

Care to try again?[/SIZE]

Would you care to try again? And before you even think about blowing this off as a parable, read my post citing 28 passages spoken by Jesus.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [Few are chosen. NOT everyone]

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [[SIZE=+1]αμην αμην[/SIZE]/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it. [Few! NOT everyone.]

Matt 7: 21 [SIZE=+1]Not every one[/SIZE] that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, [SIZE=+1]shall enter into the kingdom of heaven[/SIZE]; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [When do Jesus' words change to everyone shall enter?]

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
​

10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word, Jesus, will still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

 

[KCDAD]

I have asked simple questions to Timlamb (post 608) and addressed Der Alts Jewish Encyclopedia (post 570) double talk and no reaction... what's up guys. Can't find a scripture to counter my points? Try using reason.

 

[KCDAD]

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Let's look at this one verse... what are the problems here? People in Heaven can talk to those in Hell... Abraham is in Heaven now... Lazarus and the rich guy are both respectively in Heaven and Hell now... Apparently part of the reward of Heaven is to watch those in Hell suffer... cool... Since all good gifts come from God, God gave the rich man good things on Earth and withheld them from Lazarus and that is why they are where they are now... so it is a circle of life kind of thing, i.e. we all the same good stuff either in our lifetime or after it and the same with evil... (kinda shoots holes all thru Calvinism, eh?)... and how does Abraham become the spokeman for Heaven?

You are sure this is not a parable?

 

[KCDAD]

Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. What do you think it means to become like little children…? It’s great to quote… but what does it mean?

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [Few are chosen. NOT everyone] Chosen for discipleship… not chosen for the cosmic kickball team.

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: The sheep and goats… those who did right and those who claimed to know Jesus… he is talking about nations not individuals… but you knew that, right?

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. How does a little child receive something? What does this mean to you?

Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. You have to back to verse 20 to get the meaning here.It is about leavening. A little leavens the whole loaf. THE WHOLE LOAF. You can not try to get into the gate… Leaven works whether the loaf wants it to or not. You could have included this verse… but it stands in stark contrast with seek and ye shall find, knock and door shall be opened…Lu 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up
and hath shut to the door, and ye begin
to stand without, and to knock at the
saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us
and he shall answer and say unto you,
I know you not whence ye are :

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Again, translate this Christianese in to English. What does it mean to be born again? Cannot “see” the kingdom… nothing about entering. Seeing implies it is already right in front of us and we just can’t see it.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. It wouldn’t be too very difficult to exceed the brood of vipers and hypocrites that the scribes and Pharisees were. He certainly didn’t set a very high standard here.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it. [Few! NOT everyone.]

Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [When do Jesus' words change to everyone shall enter?] The kingdom of Heaven again… but it is right in front of us but some can’t see it.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Peter is dead meat, huh.