Hell is not permanent.

[red77]

HA! Gotcha... you must bow before and beg forgiveness.... You have assumed hell... oops I mean Gehenna is below!!!!! But what is "below" on a three dimensional round globe? Below to The U.S. is not the same direction as below to China... The world may not be floating in space with the North Pole on top of the planet... for all we know our view of the Earth is upside down in space.
I am the greatest!!!! uh... I forgot about gravity... and differential air pressures and temperatures... uh... nevermind.

man, i'm gettin confused..........!

 

[Jipsah]

Random House says righteousness is "the quality or state of being just or rightful" It defines just as "guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness"
But I am sure those definitions fall short in describing our Righteous God; Adonai; Elohim.

Not defined by those who believe in Eternal Torment. An eternal punishment for limited temporal sins would be altogether unjust, and therefore unrighteous. But that's what those who believe in ET tell us is "righteous" in God. That's nonsense. What would conceivably be "fair" about roasting someone alive in a fire forever for, oh, say 22 years of mundane workaday sinning?

Put it simply - if God behaves like a pitiless, merciless monster, it's no good calling such behavior righteous, because it still isn't. It doesn't no good saying that God's "righteousness" doesn't have to conform to what we call "righteous", because that is in itself an admission that He isn't righteous by any real-world definition.

God is righteous. If we believe that He behaves in a way that is unrighteous, then we need to question the belief, not Him.

 

[Jipsah]

<>

 

[KCDAD]

Hey Red, sorry for getting goofy. Heaven and Hell works really well in a flat world. It has problems when you look at real geography... I actually heard a preacher tell his congregation that hell is a real place in the center of the Earth. You can physically goes there and find it on a map. The scary thing is that he was dead serious. (He also claimed to have never sinned since being saved over 20 years ago. I guess he forgot about pride.)

 

[timlamb]

No they don't. That's not what they say at all. That's what you WANT them to say. They don't say that the gospel was preached to those people when they were alive, but they are now dead. It says that it was preached TO THE DEAD. It couldn't be clearer. But since this doesn't fit in with your doctrines, you must change the meaning of what it says. Why don't you just take that verse for what it plainly says and incorporate it into your beliefs instead of changing it to fit in with your doctrines?

Because I take it in context with all of scripture. And sense all of scripture says after death comes judgement, it is safe to say that those dead were taught while alive.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Paul say in Acts that "In Him we live and move and have our being".

All of existence is WITHIN God Himself. We are literally swimming in a sea of the essence of God all around us and we don't even know it. He "fills the universe". Jesus said "the kingdom is WITHIN YOU".

David said "If I make my bed in Sheol...you are there".

If heaven is wherever God is.....then Heaven is everywhere. I believe it is a state of spiritual mind and not a place. I see where you're coming from.

I am reminded of the parable of the fishes, where they ask the wise fish "what is water".

 

[Soul Searcher]

Because I take it in context with all of scripture. And sense all of scripture says after death comes judgement, it is safe to say that those dead were taught while alive.

Well you must also keep in mind that after death could be any period of time after death, the next second or ten thousand years later.

 

[timlamb]

Not defined by those who believe in Eternal Torment. An eternal punishment for limited temporal sins would be altogether unjust, and therefore unrighteous. But that's what those who believe in ET tell us is "righteous" in God. That's nonsense. What would conceivably be "fair" about roasting someone alive in a fire forever for, oh, say 22 years of mundane workaday sinning?

Put it simply - if God behaves like a pitiless, merciless monster, it's no good calling such behavior righteous, because it still isn't. It doesn't no good saying that God's "righteousness" doesn't have to conform to what we call "righteous", because that is in itself an admission that He isn't righteous by any real-world definition.

God is righteous. If we believe that He behaves in a way that is unrighteous, then we need to question the belief, not Him.

God defines the word righteousness. Right and wrong are His to decide. He is not obligated to meet worldly measures of righteousness, that is why I said that the dicionary fell short.
We can only be made righteous by acceptance and faith in the shed blood of Christ Jesus

 

[Soul Searcher]

God defines the word righteousness. Right and wrong are His to decide. He is not obligated to meet worldly measures of righteousness, that is why I said that the dicionary fell short.

I think that this ^ is in part false.

God set the standard for righteous but to be righteous he must also adhere to the standard which he has set. Otherwise by his own standard would he be found guilty.

 

[red77]

Hey Red, sorry for getting goofy. Heaven and Hell works really well in a flat world. It has problems when you look at real geography... I actually heard a preacher tell his congregation that hell is a real place in the center of the Earth. You can physically goes there and find it on a map. The scary thing is that he was dead serious. (He also claimed to have never sinned since being saved over 20 years ago. I guess he forgot about pride.)

Never sinned for 20 years....?! i dont know about anyone else here but i doubt i've lived a perfect day since believing/not believing or whatever never mind 20years......as for hell being at the centre of the earth........thats just mad, fair enough its a bit hot there but.........
and geography was my worst subject at school.........and most likely it still is.............

 

[red77]

Not defined by those who believe in Eternal Torment. An eternal punishment for limited temporal sins would be altogether unjust, and therefore unrighteous. But that's what those who believe in ET tell us is "righteous" in God. That's nonsense. What would conceivably be "fair" about roasting someone alive in a fire forever for, oh, say 22 years of mundane workaday sinning?

Put it simply - if God behaves like a pitiless, merciless monster, it's no good calling such behavior righteous, because it still isn't. It doesn't no good saying that God's "righteousness" doesn't have to conform to what we call "righteous", because that is in itself an admission that He isn't righteous by any real-world definition.

God is righteous. If we believe that He behaves in a way that is unrighteous, then we need to question the belief, not Him.

yep, this is the stuff i started to question while in the evangelical wing, at the end of the day its a message based on fear, and i dont see anything Godly about that at all, like i think i've said fear keeps people in line and the church has been guilty of it down the ages....

 

[red77]

Because I take it in context with all of scripture. And sense all of scripture says after death comes judgement, it is safe to say that those dead were taught while alive.

Tim, whilst not wanting to get into any sort of slanging match i have to take issue with you apparently thinking that I reckon God created an evil world, i cant find the post where you seemed to think that but its not what i think at all, i've said the world is in a bit of a mess but i dont blame God for that

 

[timlamb]

Tha't right. If it's God's will....nothing can stop it. And the bible clearly says that God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

So, can any being in heaven or earth stop God's will from happening? If you say "no", as you state above.....then NO MAN will perish and ALL will come to repentance because it IS GOD'S WILL for it to happen.

Eph 1: 9-1


9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Hence, I am a universalist. Why aren't you?

I am not because you misinterpret again. You skip right over the words "... to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment"
Christ will rule over heaven and earth, as discribed in the book of Revelation.

 

[Jipsah]

God defines the word righteousness. Right and wrong are His to decide. He is not obligated to meet worldly measures of righteousness

So in your opinion is He free to do things that would universally be considered unjest and evil, and still be called "righteous"? What we'd be saying then is that the word "righteous" means nothing at all.

 

[timlamb]

And yet I will try to challenge yours... where can you go that God is not? Where can you come from where God is not in order to be with God?
You are so sure Heaven is a place you are going to go to... and that hell is a place you are not going.
God is in one and not the other?

we, who are given the Holy spirit, walk with God internally, but satan is still at work in this world. We are subject to evil and temptation. In heaven we will be surrounded by his presence, no satan, no evil, no temtation.

 

[KCDAD]

So in your opinion is He free to do things that would universally be considered unjest and evil, and still be called "righteous"? What we'd be saying then is that the word "righteous" means nothing at all.

No, see God has his own dictionary and defines things differently than we do. God doesn't read our dictionary to find out what we think words mean. We are just guessing at what are words mean because, after all, God invented our language.

 

[timlamb]

So in your opinion is He free to do things that would universally be considered unjest and evil, and still be called "righteous"? What we'd be saying then is that the word "righteous" means nothing at all.

I am saying that you do not know what righteousness is. It includes justice, and yes, that includes eternal damnation for those who turn their hearts agains God.

 

[Soul Searcher]

No, see God has his own dictionary and defines things differently than we do. God doesn't read our dictionary to find out what we think words mean. We are just guessing at what are words mean because, after all, God invented our language.

 

[KCDAD]

Either God is all-powerful, or He is not. Either God is all-wise, or He is not. Either God is all-loving, or He is not. Either God's will is sovereign, or it is not. Either God's grace is infinite, or it is not. Isn't it time for the church of Christ to decide one way or the other, and then make her theology fit her expressed faith?

 

[red77]

I am saying that you do not know what righteousness is. It includes justice, and yes, that includes eternal damnation for those who turn their hearts agains God.

righteousness means inflicting unbearable pain for being s for eternity?........guess i must have a really warped idea of whats right and wrong then.........maybe i shouldnt go with my conscience after all........