Hell is not permanent.

[gort]

I have always wondered how many of them would say it is just and righteous and deserved if they themselves ended up there.

I've stated thusly many times that I deserve eternal fire for my sins before a Just and Holy God.

How about you?

 

[Havahope]

God is merciful, as you have quoted "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
We are not worthy of the glory of God. We are made righteous through Christ, if we accept the gift.

The gift is ours. It is totally by God's grace. There are no "ifs" attached to it.

OK, so we know that the way to heaven is narrow, everyone else goes somewhere, gee, how many options do we have?

Tim, I believe that the scripture says that they who do not find the broad, or wide gate to into destruction. Where does it say that this destruction is eternal torment?

Listen to what else Jesus said:
Mark 10: 17. "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24. And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27. And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: "for with GodALL things are possible."
Imagine that! Even though you and Der say that it is not possible for all to be saved, Jesus said, "With God ALLthings are possible.

 

[KCDAD]

I've stated thusly many times that I deserve eternal fire for my sins before a Just and Holy God.

How about you?

Not me. I have done nothing deserving of eternal fire. I deserve a good spanking and a firm reprimand... maybe a good flogging, and perhaps some good beating... but eternal fire? Nah. I am only 50 years old. Even if I raped, killed stole and lied every day of my life, I'd only deserve being punished for ... let's say 50 times 365 life sentences of punishment... about 18,250 years of punishment.

 

[Havahope]

You can quote the satanic stuff from hellmakers all you like. The owner of that website has shown no evidence of any qualification in the Biblical languages.

I do not quote satanic stuff from hellmakers. I do not go to satanic websites. I have no interest in those kinds of websites. I'm sorry if you do.

Here once again from the secular LSJ classical Greek lexicon. I stress "secular" because they do not have any theological view whatever to promote. They are/were only interested in how the original speakers defined words. The scholarship, i.e. the ancient pre-Christian Greek writings, documenting the definitions is shown in red.

And having posted this I have absolutely no doubt you will ingore this and any other evidence which proves you wrong. But this is not just for your benefit, it is for anyone who might be confused about this. They can see for themselves which definition is based on scholarship, and evidence and which is just the unsupported assumptions and presuppositions of the person who wrote them.
Liddell-Scott-Jones A Greek Lexicon

Well, maybe I have suddenly been stricken blind or something like that, but I don't see anything in this C A P from "Liddell-Scott-Jones A Greek Lexicon" that any where near defines aion or any form of the word, i.e. aionious, aionian, as meaning eternal - no beginning and no end.
Der, Katallasso has soundly defeated you here. You need to just "take it on the jaw", and move on. But you won't, will you?

And you believe that scripture, including, Paul teaches UR. Where is UR in 1 Cor 3:17?
Where does this scripture teach UR?
Paul does NOT teach UR!
Paul does NOT teach UR!

You refered to these scriptures as proof texts for your ET theory. I didn't quote them to prove UR. I quoted them and then asked how they proved the ET theory.

"Dog" was a Jewish derogatory term for a pagan priest who practiced temple ritual sodomy.

Jewish Encyclopedia -Dog.

The dog being an unclean animal, "the breaking of a dog's neck," mentioned as a sacrificial rite in Isa. lxvi. 3 (compare Ex. xiii. 13), indicates an ancient Canaanite practise (see W. R. Smith, "Rel. of Sem." p. 273). The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks κυναίδοι, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), though as the regular name of priests attached to the temple of Ashtoret at Larnaca has been found on the monuments (see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

"Give not that which is holy unto the kuon [male postitutes], neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

"But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to kunarion [infant male prostitutes, no doubt]."
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the kunarion [ infant male prostitutes] eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

"And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the kuon [male prostitutes] came and licked his sores."

Rev. 22: 15. For without are kuon - [a dog ["hound"] (literally or figuratively): ] and sorcerers, [ pharmakos - socerer - a drug giver- a magician] and pornos - [a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): ] and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Looks like you just don't want to admit that all dogs don't go to heaven. Let me guess: Your poor doggy died and now you are worried about whether or not he has gone to heaven.

The only little problem is you did not read my previous posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Also the cut/paste someone posted from Lightfoot also documents that the Jews believed in a hell of eternal punishment.

I've told you before, I'm not interested in your opinion or the opinion of the Jews. I need the scripture upon which you and they, based those opinions.
Show me the scripture or scriptures in the Old Testament which taught the eternal torment doctrine. Scripture! scripture! scripture! Thats what I'm looking for. Understand?

Here are most, if not all, the scriptures cited in the two articles I posted and a link to my post with the articles.

Gen. xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23, xi. 4, xii. 12; Josh. x. 11; Amos (iii. 2, v. 20).; Isa. ii. 12, x. 3, xxii. 5; Micah i. 3; Isa. xiv. 25, xxiv.-xxv.; Zeph. i-iii., iii. 8-12; Mal. iii. 2 et seq., 9; Isa. xxxiii. 14 et seq.; Isa. xxiv. 21-xxv. 8, xxvi. 19; Ezek. Xxxvii; Dan. xii. 2; II Esd. vii. 26-36, Ps. ix. 18, Ps. l. 4; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, lxxxv. 9-12; Book of Jubilees, xxx. 22, xxxvi. 10; Abot ii.; Zech. xiii. 9; Jonah ii. 3; Ps. lxxxviii. 12, xvi. 10, xl. 3, cvii. 14; Ezek. xxvi. 20; Isa. xxx. 33,

Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14; Enoch, xvii. 4-6; Enoch, lxvii. 6; Isa. lxvi. 16, 24; Job x. 22; Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Enoch, xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12; Isa. xiv. 9-10, x. 6, xci. 9, et al; Judith xvi. 17; Isa. xxxiii. 11; Enoch, xxvii,

I don't want a commentary on the scriptures cited in the two articles, and I don't give a fig about YOUR links or YOUR posts. I want to know where the doctrine of eternal torment is taught in the Old Testament.

PLEASE SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE OR SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. For this is the only authority I will accept on the subject.

 

[gort]

Not me. I have done nothing deserving of eternal fire. I deserve a good spanking and a firm reprimand... maybe a good flogging, and perhaps some good beating... but eternal fire? Nah. I am only 50 years old. Even if I raped, killed stole and lied every day of my life, I'd only deserve being punished for ... let's say 50 times 365 life sentences of punishment... about 18,250 years of punishment.

I see. A good spanking, firm reprimand, flogging and a good beating for killing, raping, stealing and lying every day of your life.....

Any other universalists out there who feel they are'nt worthy of eternal fire for their sins before a Just and Holy God?

Don't be shy.

 

[Havahope]

I see. A good spanking, firm reprimand, flogging and a good beating for killing, raping, stealing and lying every day of your life.....

Any other universalists out there who feel they are'nt worthy of eternal fire for their sins before a Just and Holy God?

Don't be shy.

ME! Look I have my hand up.
A just and holy God would not eternally torment anyone.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Good luck Havahope. It ISN'T taught in the OT, so you will be waiting for a long time for those scriptures.

Isn't it interesting that the greek word "aidios" that DOES MEAN perpetual, eternal, unending, everlasting, etc....is NOT the word that is used in reference to hell and punishment. Instead it's the greek word "aionios" which has the meaning of "age long".

Since there was a perfectly good greek word that specifically meant "eternal, everlasting etc", then why isn't that the word used in reference to hell and punishment if that is what the writer's meant?

Why, instead, did they choose "aionios"?

Because they never intended to convey the meaning of eternal or everlasting, but rather "age enduring".

It's so ironic that an entire doctrinal belief system was based on the mistranslation of a single greek word.

 

[gort]

ME! Look I have my hand up.
A just and holy God would not eternally torment anyone.

Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.

any more?

 

[EchoPneuma]

I think this scripture is very relevant to this issue...

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Any clearer? God does NOT stay angry FOREVER....but He delights to show mercy.

In order to punish men FOREVER, He would have to stay angry with them FOREVER and never show mercy. That contradicts this verse.

 

[Havahope]

Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.

any more?

So what are you going to do with us, once we all get our hands up? Make us stay in at recess?

 

[katallasso]

Good luck Havahope. It ISN'T taught in the OT, so you will be waiting for a long time for those scriptures.

Isn't it interesting that the greek word "aidios" that DOES MEAN perpetual, eternal, unending, everlasting, etc....is NOT the word that is used in reference to hell and punishment. Instead it's the greek word "aionios" which has the meaning of "age long".

Since there was a perfectly good greek word that specifically meant "eternal, everlasting etc", then why isn't that the word used in reference to hell and punishment if that is what the writer's meant?

Why, instead, did they choose "aionios"?

Because they never intended to convey the meaning of eternal or everlasting, but rather "age enduring".

It's so ironic that an entire doctrinal belief system was based on the mistranslation of a single greek word.

Echo you won't get an answer to this question. I have been asking it for weeks off and on............still, no answer.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.

any more?

Without Jesus' payment for sins we would ALL deserve eternal separation from God. But Jesus HAS paid for ALL sin....therefore ALL men have been redeemed from the penalty of sin. So even if SOME men must face the punishment of fire, it will not be an eternal separation from God...but a period of chastisment that will bring them to repentance and eventual faith in Christ.

Otherwise, Jesus sacrifice was in vain. It would be saying that He paid for the sins of ALL men, but for most of them it has absolutely no effect....in essence saying that He suffered their punishment for nothing.

 

[Havahope]

So what are you going to do with us, once we all get our hands up? Make us stay in at recess?

I mean, really, daneel, who are you to be taking a head count here?

 

[Soul Searcher]

I've stated thusly many times that I deserve eternal fire for my sins before a Just and Holy God.

Easy to say .. but I was asking about if one could do so if they found they were actually there.

How about you?

No.. I do not believe that anyone deserves to be eternally tormented.

 

[timlamb]

I've stated thusly many times that I deserve eternal fire for my sins before a Just and Holy God.

How about you?

I'm with you daneel, thank you Jesus

 

[timlamb]

The gift is ours. It is totally by God's grace. There are no "ifs" attached to it.


Tim, I believe that the scripture says that they who do not find the broad, or wide gate to into destruction. Where does it say that this destruction is eternal torment?

Listen to what else Jesus said:
Mark 10: 17. "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24. And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27. And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: "for with GodALL things are possible."
Imagine that! Even though you and Der say that it is not possible for all to be saved, Jesus said, "With God ALLthings are possible.

Wrong, neither I nor Der have said it is not possable, the bible says only a few will make it, I believe that.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I'm with you daneel, thank you Jesus

Really? Like I said it is easy to speak idle words such as these. What if you find that your faith is incorrect and you wake up one morning in hell knowing you will be spending eternity there. Would you think that you deserve to be there? Would you look up and say praise God for I truly deserve to be here?

 

[timlamb]

Not me. I have done nothing deserving of eternal fire. I deserve a good spanking and a firm reprimand... maybe a good flogging, and perhaps some good beating... but eternal fire? Nah. I am only 50 years old. Even if I raped, killed stole and lied every day of my life, I'd only deserve being punished for ... let's say 50 times 365 life sentences of punishment... about 18,250 years of punishment.

and without faith and repentance, after 18250 years, you would still have eternity.

 

[Havahope]

There is a question I would like to ask the eternal torment "screamers".
Scripture (1Cor. 15:44) teaches us that there is a natural, or earthy body, and there is a spiritual body. No other body is taught other than just these two. So, I am curious as to which of these bodies will be eternally tormented?

Tim, since you are here, and I know you believe in eternal torment, give me your insight on the above question.

 

[timlamb]

Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. What do you think it means to become like little children…? It’s great to quote… but what does it mean?

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [Few are chosen. NOT everyone] Chosen for discipleship… not chosen for the cosmic kickball team.

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: The sheep and goats… those who did right and those who claimed to know Jesus… he is talking about nations not individuals… but you knew that, right?

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. How does a little child receive something? What does this mean to you?

Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. You have to back to verse 20 to get the meaning here.It is about leavening. A little leavens the whole loaf. THE WHOLE LOAF. You can not try to get into the gate… Leaven works whether the loaf wants it to or not. You could have included this verse… but it stands in stark contrast with seek and ye shall find, knock and door shall be opened…Lu 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up
and hath shut to the door, and ye begin
to stand without, and to knock at the
saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us
and he shall answer and say unto you,
I know you not whence ye are :

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Again, translate this Christianese in to English. What does it mean to be born again? Cannot “see” the kingdom… nothing about entering. Seeing implies it is already right in front of us and we just can’t see it.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. It wouldn’t be too very difficult to exceed the brood of vipers and hypocrites that the scribes and Pharisees were. He certainly didn’t set a very high standard here.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it. [Few! NOT everyone.]

Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [When do Jesus' words change to everyone shall enter?] The kingdom of Heaven again… but it is right in front of us but some can’t see it.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Peter is dead meat, huh.

There is nothing more to say to you. Truth and things spiritual are wasted on you.
You mock Christianity!
You mock the Holy bible!

A few of you other universalists, like Kat, at least believe Jesus died for something. How can you partner up with a disruptive antagonist like this. If I agreed with him on anything, I would reevaluate my whole way of thinking.