Hell is not permanent.

[Soul Searcher]

I am saying that you do not know what righteousness is. It includes justice, and yes, that includes eternal damnation for those who turn their hearts agains God.

righteousness inherently means rightness do right be right act right. And what is justice when the scale is tipped to intolerable cruelty? True justice would have the tormentor cast into torment and the victims released.

 

[KCDAD]

righteousness inherently means rightness do right be right act right. And what is justice when the scale is tipped to intolerable cruelty? True justice would have the tormentor cast into torment and the victims released.

oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...

 

[EchoPneuma]

I am not because you misinterpret again. You skip right over the words "... to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment"
Christ will rule over heaven and earth, as discribed in the book of Revelation.

I didn't skip over anything. I haven't misinterpreted anything. THe rest of that verse doesn't change the meaning one whit. Even if you believe the "time of fulfillment" is in the future...it STILL says that God's WILL is to bring EVERYTHING in heaven and earth under ONE HEAD WHO IS CHRIST.

Are you now saying that God's will IS NOT going to be done? Make up your mind....

 

[KCDAD]

oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...

to quote myself...

"punish himself..."?




The son? "Why hast thou forsaken me"? The trinity? The cross? Resurrection? Is any of this getting through?

kcdad~~~> debating with himself.

 

[EchoPneuma]

oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...

How about what Jesus said here:

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

So God wants us to do something He isn't willing to do according to those who teach eternal torment. He wants us to love our enemies, but He is going to torture His enemies for eternity. He wants us to do good to our enemies, but He is going to do very very bad things to His enemies for all of eternity. I seriously don't think God is going to hold us to a higher standard that He holds Himself and ask us to do things that He Himself isn't going to do.....especially given the fact that we are told to be "imitators of God".

Then Jesus says that God is KIND to the "ungrateful and wicked"......but they say God is going to torture them for eternity, which by ANY definition is not kind.

Hmmmm.....whom SHALL we believe? Them or Jesus?

Hmmmmm...

This is a tough one......

 

[timlamb]

tim,

Thanks so much, apology accepted.

But I'm gonna have to take issue with your scripture .

(Rotherham) Isaiah 34:10 Neither night nor day, shall it be quenched, To times age-abiding, shall ascend the smoke thereof,--From generation to generation, shall it be waste, Never, never, shall any pass through it:


That Rotherham does seem to encourage your view. I followed the big debate with Der Alter over "Age" vs. "Eternal", and grew quite weary of it. I believe it is evident that there are ages from the begining of the earth. What I don't see is anywhere that truth changes between them; like the age when time ceases, and all that remains will remain that way for ever; age, to age, to age.
The words "never, never" sound eternal.
Isaiah has more scripture that, to me, sound eternal.

 

[timlamb]

I didn't skip over anything. I haven't misinterpreted anything. THe rest of that verse doesn't change the meaning one whit. Even if you believe the "time of fulfillment" is in the future...it STILL says that God's WILL is to bring EVERYTHING in heaven and earth under ONE HEAD WHO IS CHRIST.

Are you now saying that God's will IS NOT going to be done? Make up your mind....

My mind is made up, all heaven and earth will be under one head, who is Christ, after the time of fulfillment, "judgement"

 

[KCDAD]

(Rotherham) Isaiah 34:10 Neither night nor day, shall it be quenched, To times age-abiding, shall ascend the smoke thereof,--From generation to generation, shall it be waste, Never, never, shall any pass through it:[/SIZE]

Are we talking about hell here (or Gehenna or whatever) or are we talking about the streams of Edom[verse 9]? Are we being literal for part of this scripture and figurative for the other?

 

[Soul Searcher]

oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...

This went over my head the first time I read it but after seeing your follow up post I understand your point here..

 

[EchoPneuma]

My mind is made up, all heaven and earth will be under one head, who is Christ, after the time of fulfillment, "judgement"

I'm glad you see the light. So when all men have been judged, purified and brought to repentance then ALL MEN in heaven or on the earth will be brought under the headship of CHrist for eternity.

Glad you finally see it.

 

[red77]

Are we talking about hell here (or Gehenna or whatever) or are we talking about the streams of Edom[verse 9]? Are we being literal for part of this scripture and figurative for the other?

one thing that gets me about it people who advocate eternal hell is that 'these people dererve, it, they were wicked' which seems to encompass everyone from mass murderers to ordinary agnostics........

Its also the 'out of sight out of mind' thing, i wonder how many people who are so willing to accept it would be quite so comfortable with it if they could actually see man and women undergoing excruiating pain...?
But obviously its not a concern so it can easily be wiped over.........

 

[Soul Searcher]

one thing that gets me about it people who advocate eternal hell is that 'these people dererve, it, they were wicked' which seems to encompass everyone from mass murderers to ordinary agnostics........

Its also the 'out of sight out of mind' thing, i wonder how many people who are so willing to accept it would be quite so comfortable with it if they could actually see man and women undergoing excruiating pain...?
But obviously its not a concern so it can easily be wiped over.........

I have always wondered how many of them would say it is just and righteous and deserved if they themselves ended up there.

 

[red77]

I have always wondered how many of them would say it is just and righteous and deserved if they themselves ended up there.

I've wondered along those lines as well...... i think a desperate hope for mercy would suddenly become evident........but of course if its not'just' or 'righteous'..........

 

[timlamb]

Speaking out of turn... they will receive mercy... they get a better, higher spot in Gehenna.

for all of you quoting the sermon on th Mount;this discourse is given, by Jesus to the disciples, as an outline for Christian living. He expands on the law, making it more restrictive for His followers; holding them to the higher standards. It by no means diminishes the need for faith in Christ for salvation.

God is merciful, as you have quoted "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
We are not worthy of the glory of God. We are made righteous through Christ, if we accept the gift.

Matt. 7:
14; but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few will find it.
21; Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven.
23Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers.

 

[Soul Searcher]

for all of you quoting the sermon on th Mount;this discourse is given, by Jesus to the disciples, as an outline for Christian living. He expands on the law, making it more restrictive for His followers; holding them to the higher standards. It by no means diminishes the need for faith in Christ for salvation.

A common misconception regaurding the sermon on the mount. Read it more closely and think about what it says and who is hearing it.

At the start of the sermon it says that there were multitudes following him, .. when his disciples had gathered round he began to teach them saying....

Jump to the end.. and the multidues were astonished at his doctorine for he taught them...

To me it is clear that he was speaking to and being heard by the multitudes. Also if we look at the didache [teaching of the twelve] we see the basic ideas that are conveyed in the sermon on the mount being preached to the people by the disciples of Christ.

Conclusion: It is clear that this message was intended for all mankind and as Jesus says he who hears and obeys is wise and he who hears and obeys not is foolish.

 

[timlamb]

I'm glad you see the light. So when all men have been judged, purified and brought to repentance then ALL MEN in heaven or on the earth will be brought under the headship of CHrist for eternity.

Glad you finally see it.

No! I had no reason to take things personaly, you never twist my words.

I NEVER said that; I see it, but not your way.
Your "purification process" is fantacy. If you could burn repentance into all men, you still wouldn't have faith.

 

[timlamb]

A common misconception regaurding the sermon on the mount. Read it more closely and think about what it says and who is hearing it.

At the start of the sermon it says that there were multitudes following him, .. when his disciples had gathered round he began to teach them saying....

Jump to the end.. and the multidues were astonished at his doctorine for he taught them...

To me it is clear that he was speaking to and being heard by the multitudes. Also if we look at the didache [teaching of the twelve] we see the basic ideas that are conveyed in the sermon on the mount being preached to the people by the disciples of Christ.

Conclusion: It is clear that this message was intended for all mankind and as Jesus says he who hears and obeys is wise and he who hears and obeys not is foolish.

His diciples gathered around and He began to teach them (the disciples).
The crowd heard and were amazed; but all those words don't change a thing without faith in, and love for, the Lord.
Those are great and important words, but were never a promise of salvation without faith.

 

[EchoPneuma]

No! I had no reason to take things personaly, you never twist my words.

I didn't twist your words. I said what I thought you meant.

I NEVER said that; I see it, but not your way.
Your "purification process" is fantacy. If you could burn repentance into all men, you still wouldn't have faith.

And how do you KNOW that repentance can't be brought about in men by chastisement? Isn't that the way God ALWAYS brought about repentance in the Israelites.....by punishment and chastisment?

Where in the bible does it say that God's chastisment and call to repentance stops at physical death?

Show me ONE scripture that says that after physical death that man has no more chances to repent and be saved?

And by what authority do you say that such repentance would not produce faith? Can you see into the souls of men?

Why do you want to believe that God is finished dealing with a soul just because it sheds the body?

Why do you believe that only in this physical life is the chance for repentance and salvation? What are you basing it on?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Echo said:

No they don't. That's not what they say at all. That's what you WANT them to say. They don't say that the gospel was preached to those people when they were alive, but they are now dead. It says that it was preached TO THE DEAD. It couldn't be clearer. But since this doesn't fit in with your doctrines, you must change the meaning of what it says. Why don't you just take that verse for what it plainly says and incorporate it into your beliefs instead of changing it to fit in with your doctrines?

Because I take it in context with all of scripture. And sense all of scripture says after death comes judgement, it is safe to say that those dead were taught while alive.

No you don't take it in context with all the other scriptures. You change what it says to suit your beliefs. You ASSUME that because after death comes judgement, that the judgement is IMMEDIATE....but it doesn't say that does it? God may have had those dead people wait UNTIL they heard to gospel preached to them BEFORE He judged them.

You don't know. You just ASSUME.

But the verse SAYS that the gospel WAS PREACHED TO THOSE WHO WERE DEAD.

How do you know if those dead people aren't judged, chastised, and then again given a chance to repent?

You don't. But you refuse to believe it because it doesn't do along with your doctrine.

THe bible says that ALL MEN will be reconciled back to God through Christ.

You don't believe this either I guess?

 

[timlamb]

I didn't twist your words. I said what I thought you meant.



And how do you KNOW that repentance can't be brought about in men by chastisement? Isn't that the way God ALWAYS brought about repentance in the Israelites.....by punishment and chastisment?

Where in the bible does it say that God's chastisment and call to repentance stops at physical death?

Show me ONE scripture that says that after physical death that man has no more chances to repent and be saved?

And by what authority do you say that such repentance would not produce faith? Can you see into the souls of men?

Why do you want to believe that God is finished dealing with a soul just because it sheds the body?

Why do you believe that only in this physical life is the chance for repentance and salvation? What are you basing it on?

Those are the questions we have been dealing with for 600 posts. I could put an answer to every question, but it would not matter.
You dare to demand me find scripture to disprove you. Scripture deals with truth, it says little about fantacy.

Come now, there is no way you could have believed, after all my posts, that I believed in purification and repentance after death, except that you read me the way you read the bible.

ask something new, I am tired of repeating myself.