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Gentiles 101

Discussion in 'Traditional Adventists' started by Cribstyl, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    With all due respects Rev14, my habbits are not to attack SDA possition but rather to try and redeem the scriptures presented in a discussion. I dont claim to be correct or always clear in my communications. But, I'm only trying to have honest, fruitful, enjoyable and respectful coversations as you are I'm sure.

    I recognized those text but not outside the context presented.....
    In the scriptures I see some steps that are prerequisite to being Christ's and being Abraham's seed.

    So, to be Christ and Abraham's seed;
    Gal 3:24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    #1. you must be justified by faith.

    Gal 3:25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    #2. You're no longer under the law.
    Gal 3:26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    #3. You're adopted of God by faith.

    Gal 3:27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    #4. You're baptised in the name of Jesus Christ
    Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    #5. Your culture, status, sexual orientation dont matter, you're simply a Christian
    Gal 3:29And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    And if you're a Christian you're Abraham's seed......................

    In my understanding being Abraham seed does not mean that your heritage is the same as the literal Children's Israel. It's actually pointing the time of adoption which came after the blood of Jesus broke down the wall that seperated Jews and Gentiles.
    It does not mean that God commanded your ansestors from Sinai to keep the law as He did the Children of Israel.
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  2. Revelation 14:6-12

    Revelation 14:6-12 Member

    Indeed, Jesus did. What do you think that this means, please explain.
  3. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    In my understanding of this plurality, The Children of Israel were a type of Christ. They were not Jesus Himself. Hosea 11:1 is a direct reference to these texts below showing that all the COI being called "the Son of God" and being called out of Egypt.
    Exd 4:22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:
    Exd 4:23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

    The NLT version can help us to understand the content of Hosea 11 better.....

    The LORD’s Love for Israel

    1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
    and I called my son out of Egypt.
    2 But the more I [fn1] called to him,
    the farther he moved from me,
    offering sacrifices to the images of Baal
    and burning incense to idols.
    3 I myself taught Israel [fn2] how to walk,
    leading him along by the hand.
    But he doesn’t know or even care
    that it was I who took care of him.
    4 I led Israel along
    with my ropes of kindness and love.
    I lifted the yoke from his neck,
    and I myself stooped to feed him.
    5 “But since my people refuse to return to me,
    they will return to Egypt
    and will be forced to serve Assyria.
    6 War will swirl through their cities;
    their enemies will crash through their gates.
    They will destroy them,
    trapping them in their own evil plans.
    7 For my people are determined to desert me.
    They call me the Most High,
    but they don’t truly honor me.
    8 “Oh, how can I give you up, Israel?
    How can I let you go?
    How can I destroy you like Admah
    or demolish you like Zeboiim?
    My heart is torn within me,
    and my compassion overflows.
    9 No, I will not unleash my fierce anger.
    I will not completely destroy Israel,
    for I am God and not a mere mortal.
    I am the Holy One living among you,
    and I will not come to destroy.
    10 For someday the people will follow me.
    I, the LORD, will roar like a lion.
    And when I roar,
    my people will return trembling from the west.
    11 Like a flock of birds, they will come from Egypt.
    Trembling like doves, they will return from Assyria.
    And I will bring them home again,”
    says the LORD.


    You can ignor this fact or concede error gracefully
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  4. Revelation 14:6-12

    Revelation 14:6-12 Member

    As was stated earlier, you may say what you will here [at least this is my stance].

    Yes, context. However, because the Bible is written the way it is written, there is always more to consider than that which is in a single Chapter. Paul drew a great deal from the Old Testament.

    For instance it is said of Paul:

    To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1 Corinthians 9:21

    Justified by faith, yes. No longer under the law, correct, but rather we are under the law to Christ. Adopted by God, yes, again by faith. And as His Children, we should be His obedient children. Otherwise if we do not obey Him, and yet rather choose to heed another [satan] then we are his children, "children of disobedience".

    Except I must pause at the "one in Christ" part. In Christ there is no sin, and therefore those in Him will continue to choose to obey Him in His commandments, for it is He that is at work in them, sanctifying them. The Ten Commandments were not merely for the Jew [you will not find the word "Jew" or "Israel" in them].

    I must again pause at "put on Christ". It is ever so much more than "Baptism". For Baptism is a symbol of the Death, Burial and Resurrection from the dead [Rom. 6]. It is one who wants to be dead to the old man of sin, to live a new life of obedience. Not to be saved, but because Christ Jesus has given that salvation. Therefore in Baptism we are to "put on Christ", who refused to sin, who chose not to transgress. Bringing even every thought into the subjection to Christ.

    Yes, a True Christian [are there not many false?] is indeed Abraham's seed, because of Faith. A Child of God through Faith.

    The Heritage? Our Heritage is not of this world, but rather with Christ Jesus in the Heavenly City, and also to after the 1000 years to inherit the earth made new, in which that very city whose builder and maker is God is to come down to.

    There is yet another misunderstanding that is being held. It involves Mt. Sinai. Mt. Sinai is not the birth place of the Ten Commandments. It was merely codified and written and engraven in stones there, but existed long before it, or that event.

    Hence Paul can say, that where there is no Law there is no transgression. Yet we see that there were sins and transgression recorded, therefore the Law existed and was broken long before it was engrafted into stone tables...

    Again, please see, The Ten Commandments before Mt. Sinai:


    Adam and Eve sinned. Cain sinned. Sodom and Gomorrah sinned. The Egyptian almost commited a "great sin" in taking Abram's wife into his harem. Jacob sinned. Potiphars wife was willing to commit "sin" with Joseph. Pharoah in Moses day knew he sinned. Moses, it is said of who fled egypt and to be with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of "sin" for a season. Moses a sinner, a murderer. Israel the peoples were continually not keeping God's Holy Day in Exodus 16, "My Law" God calls it, before they even made it to Mt. Sinai. Job did not want to commit sin. and so on and so forth...
  5. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    Cool, communiction goes two ways, that's how we can understand the point of view of others. :thumbsup: We dont have to agree but hopefully we can understand each other.
    Are you saying we should not consider that the Epistles were written as complete letters primarily to Gentile churches? These letters claim to contain the only doctrines and ordinance of the Church.
    You've said a lot, about obedience to the law. You mention Adam, Cain, Abram's wife, Joseph, Potipher, Pharoah, Moses, you attached the ten commandments in colorful 3D, all to make points about the ten commandments coming befor Sinai.......... You did start out in reply to my comments of your Gal 3:29 and 28 posting when you said, I misunderstand SDA possition about Gentiles.
    :thumbsup:In time you'll get the hang of how to use the tools and other formats to dialog. It's hard for me to respond to all you've said. It will take me days to respond to your original posts I'm responding too. We all have to consider what's a reasonable exchange before posting or it'll be chaos.

    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  6. Byfaithalone1

    Byfaithalone1 The gospel is Jesus Christ!

    The requirements of the old covenant law have been fully met.

    Here's an example to illustrate:
    Bob Jones lives in the city of Utopia, Washington. Utopia has a 1% annual city tax. Out of his great love for Bob, George Smith made a cash contribution to the city of Utopia in Bob's name. The contribution was so large that it satisfied Bob's tax obligation until Bob reaches age 335. As a result, Bob will never again have an obligation to pay the city tax. George Smith did not destroy the law. Rather, he fully met its obligation. Bob can continue to pay city taxes if he elects to do so, but he is under no obligation to do so.
  7. Revelation 14:6-12

    Revelation 14:6-12 Member

    "Obedience to the law"? Perhaps it is more fully understood as being obedience to Christ Jesus, loving Him by keeping His Commandments as He has asked. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15, which Jesus quoted directly from the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20:6.

    What Commandments shall we think He means?

    For the Gospel of John clearly reveals that Jesus is God [the Son], John 1:1-3, etc. It was His voice that gave the Ten Commandments, His Finger that wrote them.

    Of course people will simply say of those commandments, "It means love God and love neighbour."

    How so? How does one then love? "God and Neighbour" How did Christ Jesus Himself Love us and the Father? To simply say "love" means nothing, since it then has behind it no definition, no substance, no tangible reality. It is just an empty word, but when Christ Jesus uses it, it is another matter entirely, having complete substance, reality and totality. When Christ Jesus says, "...love me and keep my commandments..." the two are then related.

    To simply say, "love", without any definition of the word, or meaning is to then empty the phrase of all meaning. It is said, "Well we should "love God"". How so? How do you Love God? Then it is said, "Well we should "love neighbour"". How so? How do you love your neighbour? What is the criteria for the word "love"? Further said, "Well we should "love them by loving them""... and yet nothing has been said by saying that, since there is no substance to the words.

    As Paul says,

    Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8

    For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Romans 13:9

    Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:10

    What Law was Paul talking about? The very same Ten Commandments, but he is merely quoting the latter 6 in regards to Neighbour, for it is obvious that the first 4 are also to be kept in regards to the love of God:

    What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

    and again Paul says,

    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

    Ask yourself, did Jesus walk after the Flesh or Spirit? Did He fulfill the Law and Righteousness even unto death?

    How does John speak?

    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1 John 5:2

    To love our brothers and neighbours, requires love to God by keeping His Commandments. This is the definition in loving our neighbour as ourself.

    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3

    To love God is to keep His Commandments. Which God then is served? Which God is obeyed? Which Commandments does this God have to be obeyed?

    The responses are given in such a manner so as to highlight those portions for easier connections. Colour is used to specifically delineate between various aspects. I have tried to accomodate others by reducing the amount of colour used.

    Anyone may take as long as they need to respond, and as many posts as they need to do so. I do not mind reading a lengthy post, or responding to one.

    The responses are steeped in evidence from scripture and the references are clearly given so that anyone may test the spirit by which I write. No one has to take my word for anything [in fact, please do not], go to the scriptures, and see for themselves, which is why the many citings are there.

    Love neighbour...

    Shall I dishonour my father and mother, is this love?
    Shall I murder him, is this love?
    Shall I commit adultery with them, is this love?
    Shall I steal from him, is this love?
    Shall I bear false witness against him, is this love?
    Shall I covet all that they have, is this love?

    Did Christ Jesus do any of those things? How did He then fulfill the Royal Law?

    Love God...

    Is this word "love" some "emotionally" empty word or does it have substance to it? How shall I love Him? What does my God require of me? [Micah 6:8] How shall I walk with Him? What Commandments are involved in so loving Him?

    Shall I have another God besides Him, is that loving Him?
    Shall I make graven images of those things in Heaven, earth or sea and bow myself down unto them, is that loving Him?
    Shall I take His name in vain, doing all manner of what I want apart from what He wants, is that Loving Him?
    Shall I break His 7th Day Sabbath rest by doing my will instead on that day, or shall I choose another day apart from the day He has set and make it my own, shall I set up my own righteousness, is that loving Him?

    We should not let satan deceive us so readily by allowing him to bait and switch the word "love", with a definition of his own making which empties it of all meaning. Satan would allow us to say that "we love God", and not obey His commandments, for satan so knows that is not really then love of God.

    How did Jesus define it?

    And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46

    Whose Lord is ours then if we "do not the things which" He [Jesus] says?

    Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:6

    "No man can serve two masters..." Matthew 6:24

    Please consider these things Cribstyl. Look at those texts...what do they say?

    Why bother with 9/10ths [James 2:10] of the Commandments if all one is going to do is simply ignore the one Commandment that defines who gave the rest? The 4th Commandment contains God's name [LORD, YHWH], it contains who He is [made, Creator], and it contains that which is His [Heaven, Earth, Sea an all that in them is; Everything is His]. If that Commandment is not to be obeyed, then none of them are.

    Many will say my God is "the LORD" [YHWH]. Really? Which one?

    Many will say, "the Creator LORD". Really? Which one?

    Many will say, "the Creator LORD who made all things". Really? Which one?

    Many will say, "The Creator LORD who made all things in 6 days and rested the 7th". Really? Why then do you not obey Him in the one Commandment that reveals this?

    Many will say, "Well He has given us a new day". Really? Where is this Commandment? Where is the Commandment to disregard the original day of His?

    People will often say. "I love God and therefore I do not murder, steal, commit adultery, take His name in vain, worship idols, I honour my father and mother...", and so on and so forth...

    Is that salvation by works? Is that salvation by Law? Of course they will immediately say, "No."

    Why then should the 4th commandment receive such stigma then as being "salvation by works, by law or by sabbath?"

    There is only one reason. Satan hates God's Law. Satan knows that it will not matter if a person say they love God and obey God in every aspect, but one. Satan is so deceptive, he will even promote people to keep the Sabbath exactly as the commandment says, but with one tiny exception...just on a different day, not the Day God Chose, Sanctified, Blessed and Hallowed, no, no, says Satan, keep that commandment on another day, a day, that satan has chosen as his own... If they knowingly refuse God in that one specific area, how shall then they enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, where it is the pleasure, joy and delight to obey and do His will?

    Look at the New Heavens and the New Earth:

    And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:23

    [new moon reference, see Rev. 22:2]

    Satan works in deception, and has been honing his skills for 6000 years:

    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mathew 24:24

    Who are the elect? Who is the Dragon [Satan] striving in all war against?

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

    Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

    Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

    Cribstyl, look at them. Do you not want to be in that number when the saints go marching in?

    You have followed God this far, and have accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour, why not accept Him then as your Lord, God and King, and keep His Commandments, and show your faith in Him and His work in you, by honouring Him in the 4th Commandment? Show your Faith in Him as your Creator/Redeemer and Friend, by resting with Him...

    ...you will find that satan will turn all he has against you, all fury... he will turn your friends, your family, your co-workers, your pastor, etc against you...to dissuade you...

    ...how many chances do we get...I do not know...now...today! as it is said, is the day of salvation...do not wait!

    ...but come out and be ye separate from them who have chosen not to do so. Step out in Faith, He [Jesus Christ] will hold you up. He has me.

    Will you make a stand for Christ Jesus this day and choose to keep His Sabbath this weekend?

    Will be praying for you [and any] to choose to follow Christ wheresoever He goes.
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  8. Revelation 14:6-12

    Revelation 14:6-12 Member

    The problem with the illustration [besides being a misunderstanding of the old covenant], is that the Law still exists and is not a "one time" deal. It is an every moment deal. The Ten Commandments do not simply require that one not "murder once". It says Murder never. Always in effect.

    That the penalty of the Second Death has been paid, does not give license to then disregard the commandment against Murder. That would be sinning in spite of Grace which is far more in rebellion than that of the previous offense. It is a more grievous error.

    It would be akin to murdering 7 more people after being set free for having the debt paid for murdering 1.

    We are always required at all times not to murder. We are most definitely under that obligation, especially if we Love God and Neighbour.

    The Ten Commandments are all required.
  9. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    After reading John 13 and 14 (chapter), there is no hint that Christ's dialog is about any commandments in the law. The fact that Jesus explains in context that His commandments were the words that He was speaking and teaching is a no brainer.
    Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him
    Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    Jhn 14:25¶These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you.

    WHAT BLOWS THIS OLD SDA ARGUMENT AWAYS IS; (what Jesus meant by commandments in John 14:5) This dialog was at the table of last supper. Jesus was talking with only to the apostles. Luke's account of that night shows among other commands, Jesus gave the ordinance of communion in rememberance of Him.

    You're injecting teaching about the law on the day which Jesus was arrested in the garden. It's more likely that Jesus prepared His apostles for His death with commandments and instuctions as is written is for our understanding.

    Playing the "Jesus is God-10commandments card" and posting John1:1-3 is another reasonning stunt that ignors what's really being taught by John in chapter 1. Jhn 1:17For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    If we speak what is written, we wont reason in error that Adam gave the commandments to Cain, Joseph, Abraham, ,,,,,,,,;)

    John said "the law was given through Moses.
    Jesus said "did not Moses give you the Law?"Jhn 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  10. Revelation 14:6-12

    Revelation 14:6-12 Member


    To read John 14 and 15 apart from the rest of scripture is the danger. That Jesus directly quotes from the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:6] in John 14:15 is too clear for anyone to miss.

    We can also go to John 15:14 and see:

    Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

    Just as Abaraham in working and True Faith:

    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5

    ...and he was called the "friend of God":

    And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:23

    ...Abraham, believed and so did...

    ...as Moses who spoke with God face to face as to a Friend:

    And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. Exodus 33:11

    ...the very same Moses who kept the Commandments of God, spoken by the very Voice of God [Jesus Christ] and even later written by the Finger of God [Jesus Christ].

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

    [As a side note to the previous comments, the Seventh Day Adventists do keep the example of the footwashing.]

    The fact that the conversation is at the Table of the Last Supper makes the words even more to the point. Jesus was about to die for the sins [transgression of His Law] of the world. That mankind has transgressed His Law means that mankind was doomed to utterly perish [John 3:16], yet Jesus in His infinite Love, died in our stead. He died because we sinned [transgressed His Law], yet He loved us. Why would anyone want to say that we no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments [or even one of them]? Look at the Crucifixion!

    The Law was/is transgressed. Hence the need of the Saviour Christ Jesus. Why do you [or any of us] need a Saviour? What Law have you [and we all] broken?

    Why do you quote John 7:19 at me and highlight the part about death?

    Look at the context. It is about Jesus preserving the Sabbath in its rightful place, not abolishing it.

    The actual murderers were the 'religious' ones who broke the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God by the "traditions of men".

    There it will be repeated in Revelation.

    "...yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." John 16:2;p
  11. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    :ouch: you're beating me up with words and you're using isolated text to add your comments. You have NOT proven anything by talking about everything at once.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  12. Revelation 14:6-12

    Revelation 14:6-12 Member

    Then let us begin again.

    Question: "What is sin as defined by scripture?"
  13. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    If we're looking for a word definition for sin, we'd have to look at both the Hebrew and the greek transliteration of that word.

    We can find that the Hebrew root word for 'SIN' is
    1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness
    a) (Qal)
    1) to miss
    2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
    3) to incur guilt, incur penalty by sin, forfeit
    b) (Piel)
    1) to bear loss
    2) to make a sin-offering
    3) to purify from sin
    4) to purify from uncleanness
    c) (Hiphil)
    1) to miss the mark
    2) to induce to sin, cause to sin
    3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
    d) (Hithpael)
    1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
    2) to purify oneself from uncleanness

    We find the primary Greek word for 'SIN' is
    1) equivalent to 264
    a) to be without a share in
    b) to miss the mark
    c) to err, be mistaken
    d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
    e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
    2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
    3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

    The references to the law are highlighted

    The major truth to take note of from both Hebrew and Greek is;

    "Trangression of the law" is not the prime definition or explanation of 'SIN' we should adopt.

    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  14. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    To me, if the question was "what is the best explanation of sin?"
    I would point to several bible explanations;

    The first use of the word 'sin' in the bible was given by God.

    Gen 4:7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    If God had said "sin is trangression of the law," not only would that settle the debate to define sin as trangression of the law. We would also have reason to say that the law came before sin. (I'm not saying that sin is not transgression of a law.)

    In Gen 4:7, God gives us the understanding that sin is a bad idea that want comes from within a man with the desire to come out of the man and rule over him. Someone should tell us why God did not reference the law?

    James explains SIN with the same understanding that God gave us:
    Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    James explains it as "lust" (an unnatural desire) and when it's birthed out of a person, it becomes SIN, and results in death.

    Taking a patial quote from 1John 3:4 is a actually bad translation. (will explain more later) It says; "....Sin is transgression of the law". It should not be the foundational text used to create a doctrine on sin.

    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  15. Byfaithalone1

    Byfaithalone1 The gospel is Jesus Christ!

    The illustration does not imply that the law was destroyed. The tax law remains on the books. However, for Mr. Jones, its obligation has been fully met.

    The ministry of the Spirit does not emphasize "license." However, it also does not emphasize "the ministry that brings death." This is the core of the new covenant.

    All sin even though they are recipients of grace. We are all in the same boat in this regard.

    Why limit your statement to the ten commandments? Have some jots and tittles passed?

  16. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    It's goes without saying that Paul was chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. We find the doctrine of sin called "an elementary doctrine" and "actions that leads to death"
    (NIV) Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

    The epistle to the Romans contains the elementary doctrines of the Gospel. Paul's explanation of "the doctrine of sin" itemizes how men degenerated from the image of God to do whatever came out of their minds....
    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Paul was careful to say that God's wrath was revealed (in the flood and Sodom) as it will again be revealed in these last days for the penalty of sin. Paul explains sin as ungodliness and unrighteousness.

    Below Paul gives a laundry list of sinful acts and said they were worthy of death.
    Rom 1:28And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    My whole argumentment is to present some facts to show that concluding sin as "trangression of the law" is not even close to explaining all that is taught by scriptures about SIN, and sin's relationship to the law.
    When we follow the doctrines as they are written, we find them teaching and proving when the law came and why the law came.

    In the Epistle to the Romans Paul does teach us sin's relationship to the law step by step beginning with Adam transgression of God's commandment to Him about the tree of Good and evil.
    When we read Genesis we can only agree with Paul's account if we dont add a commentary based doctrines about a law given to Adam at creation.

    Those who want to elevate a partial statement from John....
    (1Jo 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. )

    Need to look carefully at the Gr translation to know what John is saying.

    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  17. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    Those who want to elevate this partial statement from the KJV as the foremost definition for sin's relationship to the law, is not standing on a solid foundation.
    (1Jo 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. )

    They need to look carefully at the Gr translation to know what John is really saying. The fact that you dont see the usual words to say "the law" (below) prove this is not a direct reference to the ten commandments.

    Whosoever g3956πᾶς pas[​IMG]
    committeth g4160ποιέω poieō[​IMG][​IMG]
    sin g266ἁμαρτία hamartia[​IMG]
    transgresseth g458[​IMG]ἀνομία anomia[​IMG] [​IMG]
    g4160ποιέω poieō[​IMG][​IMG]
    also g2532καί kai[​IMG]
    thelaw:[​IMG]g458[​IMG]ἀνομία anomia[​IMG]
    for g2532καί kai[​IMG]
    sin g266ἁμαρτία hamartia[​IMG]
    is g2076ἐστί esti[​IMG][​IMG]
    thetransgressionofthelaw.[​IMG]g458ἀνομία anomia

    The NKJV and most translations have steered from the KJV by saying;
    Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

    ESV - 1Jo 3:4 -Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
    NASB - 1Jo 3:4 -Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
    RSV - 1Jo 3:4 -Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
    ASV - 1Jo 3:4 -Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
    YNG - 1Jo 3:4 -Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,
    HNV - 1Jo 3:4 -Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  18. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
    The correct transliteration reveals that John's statement is not about the ten commandment being present before sin.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2011
  19. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

    United States
  20. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature


    Are you saying you can blatantly break the commandments and be saved?