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Gentiles 101

Discussion in 'Traditional Adventists' started by Cribstyl, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    what post are you referencing from?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  2. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I asked you a simple question based on what I quoted from you. It's really a yes or no question.
     
  3. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    That question needs context to give a propper answer.......
    Did David kill, commit adultery?
    Did Moses kill?
    Did Paul bare false witness against Stephen?

    All men sin and come short.....
    Every man breaks the law......

    The fact is, you're setting the stage by reasoning without scriptures to imply how badly we need the ten commandments as a standard.

    Some key details on the doctrine of faith and whether the law is attached is clearly written in Rom 3:18-31 and Rom ch 6.

    If we cant then you and I are in deep trouble.
    I'm not saying that we should sin. I'm saying that SIN is SIN.

    The law only labels sin and and gives the death penalty.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  4. Stryder06

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    Forgive me for not expanding the question to make it simpler for you. I just assumed you'd understand what I was saying. I know that whenever you sin it's a blatant sin. That goes without saying. No one sins on accident. The question isn't about that, but about someone who continues in breaking of the law, with no remorse and no desire to stop. Does that help? And I don't know where you came from with faith. I wasn't talking about faith. So again, can someone blatantly (i.e continue in the breaking of the law without remorse or a desire to stop) break the law and be saved?
     
  5. Cribstyl

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    To make sense of this confusion. I'll give you a simple NO, because you want to establish everyone as being under the law. A person who continues in sin cannot have faith unto salvation by continuing in unrighteousness, so a simple NO is my final answer.

    I'm not surprised that you dont see where faith comes in the picture.
    Faith is what Christ commands, and the law is not of faith.

    We have a theological divide on what sin is Stryder. You automatically link sin to trangression of the law citing 1John 3:4. The context is not dealing with a view from creation. The statement is only true after the law came.
    Paul explained it in more details saying : "before the law, sin was in the world." Both apostles are correct if we consider their contexts. SDA rather ignor that Paul was talking about from Adam to Moses.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  6. Stryder06

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    Crib please, I didn't say that I don't know where faith comes into the picture. I simply was looking for an answer, which you gave me. I know the law isn't of faith, but I don't think that the law and faith are opposed to each other.

    And it's funny that you say that 1 John 3:4 is talking about after the law came. God said that Abraham kept His law. So whether you think that law was the 10c's or not is irrelevant. There was some law in existence that Abraham kept. And SDA's aren't ignoring anything. The law of God was on man's heart before sin. Sin is breaking God's law or rather, going against the word of God. It's always been wrong to murder, lie, cheat, worship other gods, etc, etc. At no time in existence of the universe has it been ok to do those things. God didn't need to write them down until the Exodus.

    You should really go back and take a look at the sanctuary. The law of God is in the ark of the covenant for a reason. It was placed in the Holiest for a reason.

    The actual problem here is that you look at the new testament and work backwards. I look at the old testament and move forward.
     
  7. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Cool then , case closed.
    Well, I did'nt say they oppose each other did I? Slight deviation from what is taught lead to error. Would you say I am off base to say, the Jews were the ones present false doctrines to the new Christians at Galatia? Gal 3:1 What do you think they were teaching in error? Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    I believe they were teaching that they had to be circumcized and keep the law. What do you think?

    First of all Stryder, the propper transliteration of the Greek in that passage means "sin is lawlessness" not "sin is trangression of the law." That's a game changer on what is actually meant vs the premise it's used for. (I'm sorry)



    Since we know that Abraham's father served other Gods, we know that circumcision was given as a law given to Abraham. Law by definition requires a people to follow it. You're good at taking over dialog without having to prove anything you say as facts.




    I've been for this ride through isolated text many times but I cannot ignor what is written to hold on to what is reasoned in error.

    I know you hate me to calll it commentary, but you dont even care to post text anymore.:doh:
     
  8. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Stryder,
    by running me through the loop about law from creation, I get to reject everything you present because you know it's all debatable.
    I get the ugly reputation and you get to be the hero from bringing up those familair SDA soundbites that are not clear truths at all.

    The big question is what can you prove is the truth from the scriptures.
     
  9. Stryder06

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    Not to sound rude, but what you think is debatable is irrelevant. And those "SDA soundbites" are clear. It's only when you look them through the lens of tradition that they become cloudy.

    Fact is God said that Abraham kept His law. This was way before the Exodus. What you have then is people running around trying to figure out what that law was. They can't say it was the ten commandments because at that point the foundation upon which they stand in regards to disregarding the sabbath is taken away from that. Thus they say "We don't know what law Abraham kept, but WE KNOW it wasn't the ten commandments".

    If I took you to exodus 16 and showed how God commanded the Israelites to keep His sabbath, even though this was clearly before Sinai, you'd debate that. I've told you to examine the sanctuary, and you told me that doing that would just add confusion to "clear facts". The truth of the matter is that what I say is grounded in scripture and harmonizes with the whole of the bible, while what you say harmonizes with tradition and uses scripture to explain other scripture away.

    It's not about labeling someone as a "good" or "bad" guy Crib.
     
  10. Stryder06

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    Works of the law? When I read that I don't think Paul is talking about the ten commandments. Why? Because the first commandment says "Thou shalt have no other god's before Me". Somehow I doubt Paul was saying that keeping that commandment was a bad idea. Second, the jews had turned the sacrifical system into a means by which one could attain salvation. That, along with circumcision was probably what they were pressing on the Galatians.

    Lawlessness = the absence of law right? It's not a game changer for me. for you maybe but not for me :p

    I said the Ten commandments. I didn't say a thing about circumcision. I don't lump circumcision in with the ten. I don't believe circumcision was around from the beginning. And what do I have to prove? Doesn't scripture say that God said that Abraham kept his law, statutes, and commandments? Do you need me to provide the verse for you, because I can if you aren't familiar with it. I just assumed you knew what I was talking about.

    It's funny that when I use scripture it's "Isolated text" but when you use it it's being provided in the full context of which it out to be understood.

    I don't care that you call it commentary, I just don't like the fact that you don't consider what you say as "commentary". If I say something about scripture, its commentary. If you say something about scripture, it's not? How does that work? I don't think it's necessary to post scripture every five seconds just for the fun of it. If you don't know the text I'm referring to, I'll be more then happy to provide it. When I talk on here I'm speaking from what I already understand from the scriptures that I've studied myself.
     
  11. Cribstyl

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    #100 On Aug 11 you brought up a dialog we had in May.........(we have not been chatting probably since then)
    You asked:


    I then asked you what post are you referencing from, to see if I gave that assumption at any time?...You then said;
    Before I researched what specifics you're looking for I gave you, this response... #103

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    The you responded......#104
    Stryder, even though you started showing a derogatory temperment, I still try to search for biblical facts and answers to your posts.
    I ultimately gave you a yes or no #105 among other comments I saw necessary.

    Next, you wanted me to chase that Abraham had God's law......I gave you a response on what law Abraham probably had.
    As far a I know, my comments are based on scriptures, because Abraham's father was did not worship God. You should prove what laws Abraham had. Claiming the 10 is irresponsible at best. There was in existance God given law to Noah historically called the Noahide Laws. one seem closely related to "thou shalt not kill", but the not exactly' This only lead to speculation of what laws were present and what was not.

    Then you said all this
    Apperently you just want to tell me your truths without bible evidence of responding to my findings.
    You front me with 101 issues at once and you dont care to directly tackle my rebuttals......The truth is still out their if you have not proven anything.

    Stryder..... Whenever you post, it seem like you're sending me on a wild goose chase, rather than to fellowship and to edify God's word. You act as you're intelegent and I am ignorant about what the scriptures say.
    I love the hunt, so I engage with you. I'm not going accept being constantly disrespected for my efforts to find answers to your questions. As in most of our dialogs you end up going away frustrated because I see no biblical truths, but rather just questions and commentary.

    Let's talk again when we can reason together like Christian men should. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  12. Stryder06

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    Crib, the problem is that every answer I give you is commentary. I don't try to send you on wild goose chases. I told you that all of this, and I do mean all of it, could be cleared up if you studied the sancatuary. You said essentially said "not gonna happen". The only reason why Adventists today have the understanding of scripture that they do is because the pioneers "measured the sanctuary" as the book of Revelations prophesied that they would. Seriously, take a walk through the sanctuary from the door to the Most Holy Place and I guarantee you'll see what it is that we see. The eternal nature of God's law is revealed there, that why I know the law was around before creation. It may not have existed in the form that it does now but the very principles of the law have always been there.
     
  13. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    :amen:
     
  14. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    What are you saying? Can you repost a question that you've answered from me? You've asked all the questions so far Stryder, you've posted no text. I have to figure where to find what you're saying.


    To me "commentary" is a possitive term to say the bible does not read according to what you're asking or presenting.

    I had not given a comment on your sanctuary study, so I dont know why you keep misrepresenting my resolve. #107 . My response was to this listed talking points without biblical references. This is what I often call "commentary".

    I've read the bible from front to rear many times over to be able to asked of you, please dont substitute what had fading glory for what have eternal glory. Please dont put the finger on stone above the blood on the cross.
    The sanctuary to me reprensents the time when the glory and presence of God was on earth, when God came to dwell with His chosen people.
    Yes the ark of the covenant contained His law, was put under the mercy seat, which was in the most Holy place.
    The glory that you want me to see about His law, does not compare to what happen when the curtain that seperate the holy from the most holy was rent. We now have access to the Holy of Holy and to the presence of God. We are now His dwellingplace.

    Should we ignor what the gospel teach about when the law came why the law came and when the law ends because of fulfillment?



    It seem that leadership patches are given out for raising these historical talking points that hints sabbath and the law before Moses. Some of the topics are; Sabbath at creation, Adam's sin=law is present, Able's right sacrifice, Cain knew murder was wrong, Noah clean animals, Joseph knew adultery was wrong, Abraham kept God's law and others.
    Noone seem to care that these are historical arguments that does not stand squarely on scriptures alone. They only want to establish a traceable link to appear to substantuate a creation instituted sabbath and ten commandments.
     
  15. Stryder06

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    Crib, when you said "the sanctuary to me represents..." you've made it relative. I'm not trying to compare the "glory" of the law to the "glory" of the cross. For me the two go hand in hand and it is altogether glorious. What I'm hoping you will see is the symbolism contained within the sanctuary. Scripture tells us that the earthly sanctuary was fashioned after the pattern. given Moses by God. If the earthly one was made according to a pattern, that means it was a shadow, so to speak, of the actual sanctuary which is in heaven. Have you considered that?

    I'm not saying we should ignore anything from the gospels. But the gospels don't teach that the ten commandments were done away with after being fulfilled.

    They do stand on scripture alone. God said plainly that Abraham kept His law, commandments, and statutes. God told Moses, before Sinai, that He was going to test the Israelites to see if they would keep His sabbath. The character of God is revealed in scripture, enough so that we can see that He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. The problem is that, as I said before, you look at the NT first then back at the OT. That's like trying to assemble a house walls and roof first before laying the foundation.

    We both know that commandments 1-3 and 5-10 still are enforce. So to say that the law as a total whole is done away with is foolish. Our only point of contention is the sabbath law. The fourth commandment is paraphrased by God in Exodus 16 and then spelled out in Exodus 20. The OT is full of passages from God pleading for His people to keep His day holy, but all of this becomes of no relevance once you get to the NT? I can't follow that logic.
     
  16. JohnMarsten

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    I must admit after so many years of adventism and in the end being disappointed with it I am no longer certain about the sabbath. Maybe I will return one day to keeping it but as for now I am not sure...

    Maybe God has ceased to care about the sabbath because He realized that people were not able to keep it...??
     
  17. Stryder06

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    Sorry to hear that you were "disappointed" with adventism. I can promise you that God is no more tired of the sabbath then He is the rest of His law. Contrary to popular belief, people can keep the law of God.
     
  18. Cribstyl

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    Within the 27fun beliefs are two statements that seem to legitimized the mission of other denominations.

    Why is so much said in SDA about the church at large but many SDA members seem to create a void between the church and Adventism?

    it's stated that a remnant was called out from the church..Does that mean that the church failed or no longer God's people?

    God is a covenant God. The New Covenant is sealed with the blood of Jesus Christ. Did God abbandon His covenant?
    Is the adoption as His Children invalidate by not joining the SDA church?

    Is God the author of this devison??
     
  19. OntheDL

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    Here is a quote that I think will give you the best answer that also sums up what we believe.

    'The church is God's fortress. His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world. Any betrayal of the church is treachery to Him who has bought mankind with the blood of His only-begotten Son. From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth. In every age the Lord has had His watchmen, who have borne a faithful testimony to the generation in which they lived. These sentinels gave the message of warning; and when they were called to lay off their armor, others took up the work. God brought these witnesses into covenant relation with Himself, uniting the church on earth with the church in heaven. He has sent forth His angels to minister to His church, and the gates of hell have not been able to prevail against His people.

    Through centuries of persecution, conflict, and darkness, God has sustained His church. Not one cloud has fallen upon it that He has not prepared for; not one opposing force has risen to counterwork His work, that He has not foreseen. All has taken place as He predicted. He has not left His church forsaken, but has traced in prophetic declarations what would occur, and that which His Spirit inspired the prophets to foretell has been brought about. All His purposes will be fulfilled. His law is linked with His throne, and no power of evil can destroy it. Truth is inspired and guarded by God; and it will triumph over all opposition.'
     
  20. Cribstyl

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    Thanks for posting OntheDL


    I see this as respected commentary I can find some points from, some see this as scriptures and inspired truth from a prophet.

    From my understand of what Jesus said about the ministry of the Comforter, and the gospel He commisioned to be preached. I find it questionable that any messenger would bring any other word than from Him who now sits on the throne, "Jesus".
    God has set in the church "first apostles" because the message sent is salvation is through knowledge of Jesus Christ. The ministry of the prophets of Old was as mediator between God and man, now that He has come, the prophets voice does not lead or control the church of God. The gift of Jesus Christ, is the answer to all that will be saved. The views of the prophets should not change God's last message to the word.
    Hbr 1:1¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Text says that God used to speak in many ways in the past through prophets, but in the last days by Jesus Christ.

    Who did Jesus send to teach doctrines to the church?
    I'm just saying....

    What is the covenant relationship these watchmen entered with God?


    The covenant we're under put us in a relationship with God. We've been bought as slaves from sin, into sonship with Jesus Christ and God as our father.
     
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