For The Orthodox Faithful Who Are Confused About Covid Vaccines: Orthodox Talks

[Dorothea]

Catholic but still relevant:
If Any Drug Tested on HEK-293 Is Immoral, Goodbye Modern Medicine

https://columbuscatholic.org/documents/2017/4/Vaccines and Alternatives.pdf

It still ticks me off that I broke down and let my sons get the chicken pox vaccine. I really wanted them to not get that. It's not that deadly at all. I had it when I was a kid. I was hoping they'd have it and be done with it. Sorry. Just opening the link and seeing that first on the list makes me want to kick myself. Anyway, yeah, it's sad to see this. I was listening to an ICAN lawyer questioning a doctor in a deposition on the use of aborted fetuses in vaccines and, I believe, other medicines.

First, I want to share from the HighWire's newest episode that always air Thursday mornings, around 11 a.m. PST. The story of the woman who needs a kidney transplant and found a donor but was taken off the donor list because she couldn't receive the donated kidney without being vaccinated, and the donor wasn't allowed to donate her kidney without being vaccinated, was extremely upsetting. If our public health agencies actually care about people's lives, they'd not be doing this. I actually cried in this segment, but I wanted to share it so you know what's going on. Unfortunately this happened in my state. Go to 56 mins. and 55 seconds into the video to watch this story at the beginning (probably about 15 mins total, I'm guessing):

The HighWire | Watch

Here's the link to Del talking with the ICAN lawyer (part of Del's and the HighWire's non profit organization) for anybody who wants to listen. When it got to a certain portion of that Q&A, I nearly began to cry, it was so horrible to hear what has been done to these babies. (go to 2 hours, 12 mins, and 57 seconds into the show to hear this part):

The HighWire | Watch

 

[Dorothea]

I have great respect for anyone's individual sincerely held belief in this matter.

But it is important to say this, for anyone browsing and for inquirers: as far as I can tell, no canonical Orthodox Church, at least the ones represented in the Assembly of Canonical Bishops in the US, discourages the use of vaccines. That means that no on here can tell you that you can't take the vaccine because you are Orthodox. This also doesn't mean that the Church can tell you that you must be okay with the vaccine either. They all support individual choice in this matter. By this token, as of now at least, none of the jurisdictions explicitly supports mandates and most of them are openly against them.

My point is not that it is wrong to avoid products that used fetal cells in research. My point is that it is wrong to condemn others for doing so. I guess it's okay to warn them, though.

I guess humanity's free will is more important than the sin of killing babies in the womb is the Church's stance? I'm not sure how I feel about that. Going to have to mull over that for a while. However, I agree with Rus, that once I've learned something as I have here with the use of aborted fetus cells and tissues and organs used in vaccines and medicines, I feel that I should avoid as best as I can any vaccines or medicine that uses those.

 

[All4Christ]

I guess humanity's free will is more important than the sin of killing babies in the womb is the Church's stance?

That is not remotely what he was saying. It’s a gross mischaracterization to say that.

At the beginning you seemed to respect others that came to a different conclusion in the Church (such as me with my at risk grandmother). You said that you respected your friend’s choice because she had at risk family members. Now it seems that you don’t?

At least don’t misrepresent what people say.

 

[Dorothea]

That is not remotely what he was saying. It’s a gross mischaracterization to say that.

At the beginning you seemed to respect others that came to a different conclusion in the Church (such as me with my at risk grandmother). You said that you respected your friend’s choice because she had at risk family members. Now it seems that you don’t?

At least don’t misrepresent what people say.

I didn't mean my words to sound offensive. I was and am perplexed by the Church's stance and was wondering what is the reasoning and asked if it has something to do with our free will. I can understand that because anything from God is not forced and that we make choices all through our lives. I apologize if that sounded offensive. I certainly did not mean it that way at all. However, I do find this news a struggle in my own faith circumstance. I want to do what's pleasing to God, and having learned so much about this subject on the aborted fetus cells, etc., I've had to change my own personal use of certain medications (already wasn't planning to take the vaccine from the beginning, but this issue is very important). I'm not allowing myself to just be complacent now that I know. It's a personal thing for me, and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like anything else.

 

[SingularityOne]

Delete

 

[All4Christ]

I didn't mean my words to sound offensive. I was and am perplexed by the Church's stance and was wondering what is the reasoning and asked if it has something to do with our free will. I can understand that because anything from God is not forced and that we make choices all through our lives. I apologize if that sounded offensive. I certainly did not mean it that way at all. However, I do find this news a struggle in my own faith circumstance. I want to do what's pleasing to God, and having learned so much about this subject on the aborted fetus cells, etc., I've had to change my own personal use of certain medications (already wasn't planning to take the vaccine from the beginning, but this issue is very important). I'm not allowing myself to just be complacent now that I know. It's a personal thing for me, and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like anything else.

It sounds like your view has solidified and been refined over the time of these discussions then?

The Church will not say it is up to the person if it is definitively wrong. For example, the Church unequivocally teaches that abortion is wrong. It doesn’t give people the option to have abortions.

Therefore, from my perspective, the question comes down to whether partaking of modern medicine that has been tested with fetal cell lines constitutes support or acceptance of abortion - and if it perpetuates the guilt or wrongdoing by accepting those medical treatments.

(Additionally - Is it ok to accept something that was tested by others - but not ok to participate in that testing ourselves? Is it fruit from a poisoned tree if that testing was performed? Is it different since it is using cell lines from abortions long ago rather than using cell lines from recent abortions or abortions specifically for this purpose?)

Obviously, based on what Andrei posted, the Church does not have an official universal stance staying that partaking of the vaccine or medicines that have been tested with fetal cell lines constitutes approval, acceptance or culpability of abortion. If it did, the answer would be absolute - no to the vaccines with testing using fetal cell lines. As it is, there are varying opinions within the Church which are accepted as valid opinions.

I think it falls into the theologumena category at this point.

 

[truefiction1]

It sounds like your view has solidified and been refined over the time of these discussions then?

The Church will not say it is up to the person if it is definitively wrong. For example, the Church unequivocally teaches that abortion is wrong. It doesn’t give people the option to have abortions.

Therefore, from my perspective, the question comes down to whether partaking of modern medicine that has been tested with fetal cell lines constitutes support or acceptance of abortion - and if it perpetuates the guilt or wrongdoing by accepting those medical treatments.

(Additionally - Is it ok to accept something that was tested by others - but not ok to participate in that testing ourselves? Is it fruit from a poisoned tree if that testing was performed? Is it different since it is using cell lines from abortions long ago rather than using cell lines from recent abortions or abortions specifically for this purpose?)

Obviously, based on what Andrei posted, the Church does not have an official universal stance staying that partaking of the vaccine or medicines that have been tested with fetal cell lines constitutes approval, acceptance or culpability of abortion. If it did, the answer would be absolute - no to the vaccines with testing using fetal cell lines. As it is, there are varying opinions within the Church which are accepted as valid opinions.

I think it falls into the theologumena category at this point.

Yes, but I don't think it's theologumena. It's likely something else.

 

[All4Christ]

Yes, but I don't think it's theologumena. It's likely something else.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Dorothea]

It sounds like your view has solidified and been refined over the time of these discussions then?

The Church will not say it is up to the person if it is definitively wrong. For example, the Church unequivocally teaches that abortion is wrong. It doesn’t give people the option to have abortions.

Therefore, from my perspective, the question comes down to whether partaking of modern medicine that has been tested with fetal cell lines constitutes support or acceptance of abortion - and if it perpetuates the guilt or wrongdoing by accepting those medical treatments.

(Additionally - Is it ok to accept something that was tested by others - but not ok to participate in that testing ourselves? Is it fruit from a poisoned tree if that testing was performed? Is it different since it is using cell lines from abortions long ago rather than using cell lines from recent abortions or abortions specifically for this purpose?)

Obviously, based on what Andrei posted, the Church does not have an official universal stance staying that partaking of the vaccine or medicines that have been tested with fetal cell lines constitutes approval, acceptance or culpability of abortion. If it did, the answer would be absolute - no to the vaccines with testing using fetal cell lines. As it is, there are varying opinions within the Church which are accepted as valid opinions.

I think it falls into the theologumena category at this point.

Good questions. Maybe it's one of those ethical issues that the Church will eventually have to deal with in a future ecumenical council.

 

[truefiction1]

Good questions. Maybe it's one of those ethical issues that the Church will eventually have to deal with in a future ecumenical council.

That's optimistic.

 

[Dorothea]

That's optimistic.

Just going by some Orthodox prophecies on this coming about.

 

[truefiction1]

I guess humanity's free will is more important than the sin of killing babies in the womb is the Church's stance? I'm not sure how I feel about that. Going to have to mull over that for a while. However, I agree with Rus, that once I've learned something as I have here with the use of aborted fetus cells and tissues and organs used in vaccines and medicines, I feel that I should avoid as best as I can any vaccines or medicine that uses those.

In moments when I'm being visited by grace I know that I ought to avoid taking the vaccines even at the cost of everything. When I'm spiritually dry, without grace, I'm stricken with a sense of the ordinariness of vaccines in our world and have the sense that refusing them would be foolish. Then I also feel it would be foolish for a person who isn't a confessor to suffer martyrdom over it. These things remind me of the messages put forth in the movie "Silence". The priests in that movie were given a very difficult choice: Their spiritual children (Japanese converts to Christianity) were horribly tortured to the point of denying Christ. The priests were told that their proselytes had already denied Christ due to being tortured, but that their agony would not stop, and they would eventually be killed regardless, unless the priests agreed to become official public spokesmen against Christianity. The priests complied in order to stop the sufferings and save the lives of their converts. Outwardly they went along, while inwardly they supposedly worshipped Christ. Their silence is the reason that the movie is titled "Silence". The statement the movie makes, ultimately, is that "the message of the Cross is foolishness, so keep it to yourself so that you and yours can keep your lives in this world".

Quite frankly, the Church authorities are being largely silent when it comes to the nature of the vaccines debate, and always have, since vaccines first appeared that were made according to the breaking of God's Laws against both murder and the destruction of God's temple: a child's body. The reason is that they are not willing to choose martyrdom for others, especially if such martyrdom is at the hands of a disease rather than at the hands of men.

I know this to be a fact. I'm not making it up. I heard one of our bishops, who is a highly influential member of the US Synod say these very words when I was in a private meeting with him and others, none of whom voiced any objection to his rationale. This seems reasonable enough. The only problem with this philosophy is that it's a lie, and I immediately knew it was after hearing it. Just because others will suffer and be killed on account of the Gospel does not mean that we are excused from preaching it, and preaching the Gospel is inseparable from teaching God's Law. It's a sin to accept the vaccines, and this fact can easily be understood by those who know God's ways. But the priests won't tell us this outright even if they are aware of it, which in many case they probably aren't even aware of it. If they would at least tell people the truth then we might understand how far we are from God as a people, and we would be aware of our dire condition and could be given the opportunity to repent as the people of Christ. But they do not do this. And to us who do know that it is a sin, they say, "Follow your own conscience, but you mustn't tell others that it's a sin to take the vaccine".

They insist on our "Silence".

 

[rusmeister]

Some think the virus wholly unrelated to politics. They are mistaken. The virus, and the vaccines, MUST not be considered in isolation from the effects of the measures proposed to deal with them.

Those who know something of Rod Dreher know that he is not to be sneezed at. If this article doesn’t chill you, I don’t know what will.

The Age of Antichrist Is Here - The American Conservative

I think the time left to us for freedom of action and choice is going to be much briefer than we could have imagined.

 

[truefiction1]

Additionally, not many of us are even vaguely aware of the extent to which we have come to have modern medicine take the place of God over us. There are so many of us can't begin to imagine why any person in their right mind would dare to spit in the face of any promising medicine, and so those who do are quickly deemed unstable, uncompassionate, selfish, and dangerous to the welfare of the people. Religious fanatics are scary people, to be sure.

In the movie "Ostrov", during the scene where the admiral had travelled to the island seeking help for his daughter suffering with hysteria from this elder he'd heard about, we recall how, once the elder started talking about the girl having a "demon", the admiral tried to rescue his daughter from the scary, lunatic elder. He was unsuccessful, of course, and the elder cast out the demon with his prayers and returned the girl in her right mind back to her father. Just know that the world is afraid of us, and so in our dealings with people we oftentimes must also temper our words, though coming from spiritual discernment, in accordance with the needs of those we are ministering to. Other times, however, we must not do this because our silence would lead to greater harm.

 

[truefiction1]

Some think the virus wholly unrelated to politics. They are mistaken. The virus, and the vaccines, MUST not be considered in isolation from the effects of the measures proposed to deal with them.

Those who know something of Rod Dreher know that he is not to be sneezed at. If this article doesn’t chill you, I don’t know what will.

The Age of Antichrist Is Here - The American Conservative

I think the time left to us for freedom of action and choice is going to be much briefer than we could have imagined.

Yes, I've come to see the "man of sin" in a collective sense, as that specific sort of "man" who collectively strived together to build the tower of Babel. Though there might even be one central figurehead who comes to represent the "tower" in himself. I'll also throw in that, to St. Paisios of Athos, the number 666 was symbolic of the economic system that one would be excluded from unless they received a mark. And I think we know that no ideological system, or "tower", is built without human sacrifice, and so all who go along and receive the mark are taking the bloodguilt of these sacrifices "upon themselves and upon their children". The vaccines were not made without such sacrifice; both these Covid vaccines as well as various vaccines which came before them. Fetal tissues from electively aborted persons were used extensively in the many studies leading to the development of the vaccines. Modern medicine/health care is one of the primary building blocks of the tower, and is the very means by which the mark is going to quickly be introduced, in rapid fashion. These are not my ideas. The late saints have been warning us about what is happening right now. The way they spoke about the hierarchs who would have control over the Church in the time of Anti-Christ's reign pretty much fingers these compliant Christian leaders as being the 'false prophet' whose testimony caused many to worship the beast.

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

In moments when I'm being visited by grace I know that I ought to avoid taking the vaccines even at the cost of everything. When I'm spiritually dry, without grace, I'm stricken with a sense of the ordinariness of vaccines in our world and have the sense that refusing them would be foolish. Then I also feel it would be foolish for a person who isn't a confessor to suffer martyrdom over it. These things remind me of the messages put forth in the movie "Silence". The priests in that movie were given a very difficult choice: Their spiritual children (Japanese converts to Christianity) were horribly tortured to the point of denying Christ. The priests were told that their proselytes had already denied Christ due to being tortured, but that their agony would not stop, and they would eventually be killed regardless, unless the priests agreed to become official public spokesmen against Christianity. The priests complied in order to stop the sufferings and save the lives of their converts. Outwardly they went along, while inwardly they supposedly worshipped Christ. Their silence is the reason that the movie is titled "Silence". The statement the movie makes, ultimately, is that "the message of the Cross is foolishness, so keep it to yourself so that you and yours can keep your lives in this world".

Quite frankly, the Church authorities are being largely silent when it comes to the nature of the vaccines debate, and always have, since vaccines first appeared that were made according to the breaking of God's Laws against both murder and the destruction of God's temple: a child's body. The reason is that they are not willing to choose martyrdom for others, especially if such martyrdom is at the hands of a disease rather than at the hands of men.

I know this to be a fact. I'm not making it up. I heard one of our bishops, who is a highly influential member of the US Synod say these very words when I was in a private meeting with him and others, none of whom voiced any objection to his rationale. This seems reasonable enough. The only problem with this philosophy is that it's a lie, and I immediately knew it was after hearing it. Just because others will suffer and be killed on account of the Gospel does not mean that we are excused from preaching it, and preaching the Gospel is inseparable from teaching God's Law. It's a sin to accept the vaccines, and this fact can easily be understood by those who know God's ways. But the priests won't tell us this outright even if they are aware of it, which in many case they probably aren't even aware of it. If they would at least tell people the truth then we might understand how far we are from God as a people, and we would be aware of our dire condition and could be given the opportunity to repent as the people of Christ. But they do not do this. And to us who do know that it is a sin, they say, "Follow your own conscience, but you mustn't tell others that it's a sin to take the vaccine".

They insist on our "Silence".

Not all vaccines are made with fetal cell lines though. Would you object if they were made with no fetal cell lines?

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Some think the virus wholly unrelated to politics. They are mistaken. The virus, and the vaccines, MUST not be considered in isolation from the effects of the measures proposed to deal with them.

Those who know something of Rod Dreher know that he is not to be sneezed at. If this article doesn’t chill you, I don’t know what will.

The Age of Antichrist Is Here - The American Conservative

I think the time left to us for freedom of action and choice is going to be much briefer than we could have imagined.

Yes, any forced vaccine mandates on the general population is a violation of bodily autonomy. Even baptism of an adult requires consent.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Do you remember when Jesus called Peter Satan? Have any recollection why He did? How was Peter seeing and how was Christ seeing? Were both ways of seeing holy?

Peter could not see the big picture, but he was not Satan. HaSatan is the adversary in Hebrew. He was telling Peter not to oppose His mission.

 

[truefiction1]

Not all vaccines are made with fetal cell lines though. Would you object if they were made with no fetal cell lines?

No, I wouldn't object. If Novavax brand Covid-19 vaccine ever becomes available to me I will be vaccinated, because it's the only one that did not rely on immorality in it's development.

 

[truefiction1]

Peter could not see the big picture, but he was not Satan. HaSatan is the adversary in Hebrew. He was telling Peter not to oppose His mission.

Peter could not see the big picture, and so the picture he was seeing was a lie, from him who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Peter's way of seeing lacked the vision of the Resurrection, and so, for Peter, temporal affairs of life in this world took precedence over the Cross, which is the only way to salvation of Eternal Life. If you think that we should go along with the use of any vaccine that came to us through ways that violate the Love of God, in order to preserve our temporal lives in this world, then your way of seeing is cutting out the true belief in the Resurrection. The bottom line is that we must not violate God's Law in order to save our own lives or anyone else's. We would choose the Cross of death first. It's a sin to use immoral medicine. Children were sacrificed to HaSatan, and their sacred bodies; the temples of God's Holy Spirit, desecrated on the altar of "salvific" medicine of unbelieving, sinful man. The vaccine - is unclean! Bring me good medicine, made by God-fearing men, and I will take it even if there are risks and it could kill me. Otherwise, leave me to die upon the cross of the unvaccinated.