Fellow liberals, why do we defend Islam?

[A_Thinker]

As for why liberals are as you say 'hostile' to Christianity. This is partly because it shows them up in a very bad light and partly because this is a spiritual battle and as agents of the devil they are attacking that which is right.

So liberals don't typically espouse the ministries Jesus performed ... ???

Healing the sick ... ?
Feeding the hungry ... ?
Delivering the downtrodden and oppressed ... ?

Luke 4

16 Then Jesus came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath. And when He stood up to read, 17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor.

He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, ...

19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20 Then He rolled up the scroll, returned it to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on Him, 21 and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

 

[Shawn Stuart]

Frankly, I can't see why a Christian WOULDN'T be a liberal.

Because our brains haven’t fallen out.

 

[A_Thinker]

Frankly, I can't see why a Christian WOULDN'T be a liberal.

Because our brains haven’t fallen out.

But your hearts have hardened ???

 

[Silmarien]

I've noticed that my atheist and agnostic liberal friends are hostile toward Christianity, but totally sympathetic to Islam, and I'm baffled as to why. It's to the point where they absolutely will become angry with you, accuse you of "racism," and declare that you are "misrepresenting" Islam when you criticize it. My best guess is that liberals with latch onto, make allies with, and defend anyone whom they view as oppressed.

We need to differentiate between defending Muslims and defending Islam. The fact of the matter is that there are some really crazy beliefs out there about Muslims--the dehumanization and fear of the unknown can run wild in conservative circles, and it is necessary to defend people from that, since Islamophobia is a thing, and it's not much different than racism.

Unfortunately, there's a strong tendency towards relativism in secular humanist circles, and Islam can end up being seen as just another way of looking at the world--a way we don't really have the right to criticize. I think that plays a role in how defense of a marginalized group of people has turned into defense of a worldview amongst some liberals.

 

[Shawn Stuart]

But your hearts have hardened ???

How so? Conservatives aren’t the ones murdering babies.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

How so? Conservatives aren’t the ones murdering babies.

My, oh my, have you forgotten all about the little wars in Afghanistan and Iraq back in 2002-2008. I also believe the very first raid that Trump took credit for killed some young ones in Yemen.

 

[SolomonVII]

I've noticed that my atheist and agnostic liberal friends are hostile toward Christianity, but totally sympathetic to Islam, and I'm baffled as to why. It's to the point where they absolutely will become angry with you, accuse you of "racism," and declare that you are "misrepresenting" Islam when you criticize it. My best guess is that liberals with latch onto, make allies with, and defend anyone whom they view as oppressed.

I spent a great deal of time learning about Islam earnestly and open-mindedly while exploring religion. I spent considerable time at a mosque over the course of about 6 months, praying with them, chatting with numerous Muslims, reading the Quran front to back more than once, and studying the Hadith (teachings and sayings of Muhammad). Here is what I learned:

First, the positives. Muslims believe in freedom of religion; religion is not compulsory. Any Muslim society that follows the Quran and Hadith truly will allow Christians and Jews to practice freely. Also, they abhor racism. To Muslims, race does not matter. Mosques are multi-ethnic, and all Muslims are brothers and sisters. Racism is viewed as hatred of Allah's creation, which is a great sin. Of course, racism will still seep into some Muslim circles, as it does with every religion and even no religion. But the general view is anti-racist. These two things are where liberalism and Islam agree, and after this, there are no similarities whatsoever.

Now, a few points of contention.

The Islamic perspective is almost completely antithetical to secular and Christian liberalism. Moderate Islam is more extreme than even the most conservative brand of fundamentalist Christianity. On many social and religious issues, Islam is about 8 centuries behind the secular world, and that's not an exaggeration.

Part of accepting Islam is accepting Sharia in it's entirety, literally interpreted, with minimal changes to adapt to modernism. Sharia is Islamic religious law and government. This is true of ALL muslims, and I say this from my own experience. Ask any one of them if they accept Sharia, and they will tell you yes. No exceptions. This isn't a misconception at all. Sharia is laid out in the Quran and Hadiths of the prophet extensively, and the Quran teaches explicitly to obey the teachings of the prophet. The Quran and the Hadith lay out a blueprint for Islamic rule, and command that it be established and followed. This command is taken very seriously.

The liberal support of Islam is NOT reciprocated, generally. The Islamic world has a very low view of secular liberalism, and often identifies with conservatism, in spite of harsh criticism from Western conservatives. From the Islamic perspective, secular law leaves God out of governance, and disobeys His laws and governmental system as laid out explicitly in the Quran and Hadith. This is seen as a great evil. If you don't believe me, go to a mosque and ask them how they feel about secularism and Sharia.

Punishment for apostasy is death. This is clear and unambiguous in the Quran and Hadith. Read it for yourself if you don't believe me. Views on homosexuality are more extreme than the religious right in the US. It is a grave sin, on par with murder, and can be punished by death. The best you can hope for if you are caught in homosexual acts under Sharia is a beating, and this is in more moderate Muslim circles.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Believe me, there is much, much more. And lest I am accused of misrepresenting, pick up any translation of the Quran and see for yourself. Talk to the Muslim community and see for yourself. Look up the Hadiths and see for yourself. It's all right there, clear as day. After learning about Islam to the extent that I have, and seeing that most of the criticisms of it are true, I cannot bring myself to support or defend it. Frankly, I'd rather live under a Pat Robertson dictatorship than any form of Islamic law.

EDIT: When I bring these things up to my liberal friends, they point to passages of the Bible that condone some of the same things. I'll address this point right now: Christianity and Judaism have both adapted to the modern world. For the most part, Islam has not.

It is intersectionality politics behind this kind of response. Identity politics has created a hierarchy of victim groups. Christians are not included as a valid victim group, and Muslims are at the moment at the top of that hierarchy. Jews used to be higher, before Israel began winning all its wars.
But, it is why Christians in the ME are undergoing a genocide and being ignored by liberals, while Muslims who are in charge of the genocide, even making the refugee camps deadly for Christians, are seen as the victims.
They are higher up on the hierarchy. Homosexuals are fairly high up on the victimhood hierarchy too, of people whom to most feel sorry for, except when it comes to Muslims. Hanging homosexuals in Iran by the neck therefore is ignored too, since the ones doing the hanging are Muslims, and therefore the most intersectional of anyone.

 

[SolomonVII]

Why am I a liberal?



Or it could be because I doubt the holiness of a man who cheats on his third wife with inappropriate contentstars and buys their silence through illegal use of campaign funds.

That is traditionally more of a conservative sort of reason. Trump is the follower of the libertine values of those who for the past thirty years have dumped on conservatives for shoving their morals down liberals throats. "Two consenting adults" is the only liberal standard on that, or it had been, until Trump.

 

[hedrick]

That is traditionally more of a conservative sort of reason. Trump is the follower of the libertine values of those who for the past thirty years have dumped on conservatives for shoving their morals down liberals throats. "Two consenting adults" is the only liberal standard on that, or it had been, until Trump.

Actual liberal Christian ethics include honoring your commitments.

To my knowledge neither liberal nor conservative Christians doubt that Trump has done unethical things (nor that Bill Clinton did, for that matter). Where things get difficult is what constitutes grounds for impeachment. I have maintained that Trump's sexual escapades are not impeachable. I felt the same about Clinton. (I was Republican at the time.) If it's a serious campaign financing violation it gets closer, but I'm still not sure it's a high crime. I think a real conspiracy with Russians to influence the election would be, but it's not clear that such a thing actually existed.

 

[SolomonVII]

Actual liberal Christian ethics include honoring your commitments.

To my knowledge neither liberal nor conservative Christians doubt that Trump has done unethical things (nor that Bill Clinton did, for that matter). Where things get difficult is what constitutes grounds for impeachment. I have maintained that Trump's sexual escapades are not impeachable. I felt the same about Clinton. (I was Republican at the time.) If it's a serious campaign financing violation it gets closer, but I'm still not sure it's a high crime. I think a real conspiracy with Russians to influence the election would be, but it's not clear that such a thing actually existed.

I wasn't really talking about just Christian liberals, but liberals in general.
Impeachment is political thing. I am not really talking about that. I am just limiting it to the idea of the "holiness of the man", not even responding to the liberal diatribe about conservatives being all about the greed.
In terms of sexual morality, Trump is just not that unusual a figure for what liberals have tended to elect. It is not as if Chappaquiddick made Teddy much less of a liberal hero, with a heroes funeral, and that even involved somebody dying.
That was a very revealing moment for me, at least. Powerful Dems in America can get away with murder, with it all being covered up as if there was nothing to see there, even when the fact all were there for us to see.
It was a weak argument for someone to argue they are liberal because Trump isn't holy.

 

[Sm412]

How so? Conservatives aren’t the ones murdering babies.

Conservatives definitely murder babies. They just do it with bombs and to people you don't like.

100,000 innocent men, women, and children died as a result of the Iraq war, a war conservatives whole heartedly supported.

 

[Sm412]

I wasn't really talking about just Christian liberals, but liberals in general.
Impeachment is political thing. I am not really talking about that. I am just limiting it to the idea of the "holiness of the man", not even responding to the liberal diatribe about conservatives being all about the greed.
In terms of sexual morality, Trump is just not that unusual a figure for what liberals have tended to elect. It is not as if Chappaquiddick made Teddy much less of a liberal hero, with a heroes funeral, and that even involved somebody dying.
That was a very revealing moment for me, at least. Powerful Dems in America can get away with murder, with it all being covered up as if there was nothing to see there, even when the fact all were there for us to see.
It was a weak argument for someone to argue they are liberal because Trump isn't holy.

Read my entire post above on how I believe Christianity more closely aligns with liberalism, even in the pro-life sense.

 

[Sm412]

Because our brains haven’t fallen out.

Why don't you address one of my assertions included in that post, so we can have a real conversation.

Let's start with this: why oppose abortion while at the same time seeking to abolish or cut programs that would help these mothers and their kids?

Further, illuminate why that's a Christian thing to do.

After that, we can move on to your pro-wealthy, anti-middle/lower class economic policy.

 

[Sm412]

It is intersectionality politics behind this kind of response. Identity politics has created a hierarchy of victim groups. Christians are not included as a valid victim group, and Muslims are at the moment at the top of that hierarchy. Jews used to be higher, before Israel began winning all its wars.
But, it is why Christians in the ME are undergoing a genocide and being ignored by liberals, while Muslims who are in charge of the genocide, even making the refugee camps deadly for Christians, are seen as the victims.
They are higher up on the hierarchy. Homosexuals are fairly high up on the victimhood hierarchy too, of people whom to most feel sorry for, except when it comes to Muslims. Hanging homosexuals in Iran by the neck therefore is ignored too, since the ones doing the hanging are Muslims, and therefore the most intersectional of anyone.

Well put. Granted, I do believe there are groups who are oppressed unjustly, and those groups should be liberated and fought for. I just don't believe Muslims are one of them. As a liberal Christian, I have a very low opinion of that ideology. It is, IMO, far worse than anything American conservatism could do, excluding maybe radical conservative groups like the white nationalist movement.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

But, it is why Christians in the ME are undergoing a genocide and being ignored by liberals, while Muslims who are in charge of the genocide, even making the refugee camps deadly for Christians, are seen as the victims.

Thank you for pointing out that the President of the United States of America, Donald J. Trump, is a Liberal, as I have always believed. The banning of Christian refugees from Syria and other countries where they are persecuted was and is criminal.

 

[SolomonVII]

Well put. Granted, I do believe there are groups who are oppressed unjustly, and those groups should be liberated and fought for. I just don't believe Muslims are one of them. As a liberal Christian, I have a very low opinion of that ideology. It is, IMO, far worse than anything American conservatism could do, excluding maybe radical conservative groups like the white nationalist movement.

My liberalism tends towards individualism. It is a disappointment that bureaucrats, working for or with government, have not developed a method in North America of “mining” individuals from any religion for common values that all who sign on for a pluralistic society must value. Our future lies with finding people who are pluralistic in the social sphere.
Christians of the ME must be mined. They must be found. They exist outside of official channels, which are dangerous for them to use.

There are a lot of educated people working in the government-industrial complex. People that are adept at maneuvering complex pluralistic environments are a common value for our Western societies and ME Christians have been maneuvering that complexity for centuries.
They are adept.
They are also facing extinction.

 

[Sm412]

My liberalism tends towards individualism. It is a disappointment that bureaucrats, working for or with government, have not developed a method in North America of “mining” individuals from any religion for common values that all who sign on for a pluralistic society must value. Our future lies with finding people who are pluralistic in the social sphere.
Christians of the ME must be mined. They must be found. They exist outside of official channels, which are dangerous for them to use.

There are a lot of educated people working in the government-industrial complex. People that are adept at maneuvering complex pluralistic environments are a common value for our Western societies and ME Christians have been maneuvering that complexity for centuries.
They are adept.
They are also facing extinction.

Economically, I am very moderate. Not so far left I'd call myself a "socialist," but not into the conservative/libertarian brand of supply-side capitalism. I believe in capitalism and meritocracy strongly, however, I believe in a demand-side model that benefits the working/middle class (much like the FDR model). It is my belief that growth and prosperity comes not from investment by the upper class, but by demand from the working/middle class that incentivizes that investment. On top of that, strong public programs of all kinds designed to uplift underprivileged economic classes. IMO, we can't have a true "meritocracy" without such things.

Anyway, kind of off topic.

But yes, I agree. I am generally favorable toward immigration. My only real requirement is that they love this country and believe in our system and values. Muslims do not. Period. Not one. Based on what I have learned first-hand, anywhere they gain any sizable political foothold, which they may have in Europe in coming years, they WILL try to implement Islamic law. No doubt. Which is why I ask them, please stay away from my country. There are many nations that implement Islamic law. Pick one, and don't come here.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

My only real requirement is that they love this country and believe in our system and values. Muslims do not. Period. Not one.

The Muslims that I have served with and am currently serving with in the Military love this country very much, so much in fact to go to other countries and wage war against Terrorism, some have even given their life for this country, The United States of America.

 

[Sm412]

My liberalism tends towards individualism. It is a disappointment that bureaucrats, working for or with government, have not developed a method in North America of “mining” individuals from any religion for common values that all who sign on for a pluralistic society must value. Our future lies with finding people who are pluralistic in the social sphere.
Christians of the ME must be mined. They must be found. They exist outside of official channels, which are dangerous for them to use.

There are a lot of educated people working in the government-industrial complex. People that are adept at maneuvering complex pluralistic environments are a common value for our Western societies and ME Christians have been maneuvering that complexity for centuries.
They are adept.
They are also facing extinction.

I do see a lot of hypocrisy from my side of the aisle. Persecution against Christians abroad definitely does get ignored. Christians have held such a majority in the western world for such a long time, and my liberal friends rebel against many of the Christian traditions and values advocated by (mostly) the Christian right. Some of them they certainly are correct to question, such as opposition to science and hostility toward the LGBT community. But this backlash has caused them to be numb to, and in the worst case supportive of, Christian persecution abroad.

 

[Sm412]

The Muslims that I have served with and am currently serving with in the Military love this country very much, so much in fact to go to other countries and wage war against Terrorism, some have even given their life for this country, The United States of America.

They may have loved this country, and fought for it, but at the end of the day, they believe in Islamic law and rule. It's part of being a Muslim. One must follow all things outlined in the Quran and Hadith, and one of those things is Islamic law.

If Muslims ever make up more than 60-70% of this nation's population, we will have Islamic rule.